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Why no concessions ? Is hundreds of years of tyranny, murder, rape, pillage, starvation and displacement not enough for you ?
AfricanGael (UK) - Posts: 1947 - 31/05/2021 21:17:06 2347188 Link 3 |
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Back with the bold text I see. And what sort of strawman argument is that? Where did i ever mention any of that? Simply stated that the GAA has conceeded many times on many things and will continue to do as an evolving organisation. It's not up to the PUL community to dictate, but ourselves on what we see as not right. And let's be honest, there's a few things not right. It is our decision though. Don't warp my meaning Loughduff Lad (Cavan) - Posts: 2479 - 31/05/2021 21:33:29 2347195 Link 0 |
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Back with the bold text I see. And what sort of strawman argument is that? Where did i ever mention any of that? Simply stated that the GAA has conceeded many times on many things and will continue to do as an evolving organisation. It's not up to the PUL community to dictate, but ourselves on what we see as not right. And let's be honest, there's a few things not right. It is our decision though. Don't warp my meaning Loughduff Lad (Cavan) - Posts: 2479 - 31/05/2021 21:46:14 2347201 Link 0 |
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I do not know what you mean by concessions. Your comment 'Republicans and Slavers being on the name of clubs and cups in the North' displays a good deal of ignorance. I do not see many clubs changing their name north or south, or indeed in Cavan! and I'm not concerned about a persons religion as it is their own business. If I'm correct there is a new GAA club in East Belfast and an Irish school there as well if the latest news is correct.
browncows (Meath) - Posts: 2342 - 31/05/2021 22:01:32 2347211 Link 10 |
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I wrote the paragraph you're quoting and I don't know what your on about. I'm very straight talking and you should quit the deduction or you'll give yourself a headache.. I meant what I said and no more. I and many like me have pride in our country and feel no guilt whatsoever. The Free State did the best they could and fought a hard and bitter Civil war to stop the extremists and ultimately to prevent Lloyd George from sending over a tonne of soldiers to restore peace. Who knows what would have happened then. We might have no country or we might have been better off. Who knows. What I do know is I'm tired of the free ride Northern Republicans get in the media and online. Its constant victim ,victim stuff and we don't like it. Make Northern Ireland work...make an effort at least before you turn our place upside down aswell."]Guardian fever - the unquestioning belief in the moral righteousness of the underdog."]I have no headache I can assure you and all any of us are doing here is discussing or deducing so I'll continue that thanks very much .. if you've no idea what I'm on about then that's a shame. I actually think the anti treaty side were correct in the civil war (controversial for many in the north I know.) De Valera turned out to be more of a free stater than the pro treaty side anyway, he played everyone for his own means. What I'm saying is that dividing the country was nothing to be proud of but it was the best case scenario in a conundrum. I believe Collins if he had lived would have at least tried to claim the 6 counties back. Leaving the north behind was nothing to be proud of and no matter what way you try and paint it, there is unfinished business. The free state that you talk of did not envisage or indeed cheerlead for an eternal division of Ireland the way you seem to do. They just had to get on with it. The victim stuff towards northern nationalists is such a cheap shot though. You literally have no clue what it's like to have been left behind in an english puppet state that doesn't value you or culture.. which burned your parents or grandparents out of their home. Which circled your GAA field or hassled you on your way to training. Which left you politically and economically to the wolves for decades so you would stay on the ground where they wanted you... Your attempts to diminish this decades long experience for northern nationalists as 'victim stuff' is honestly pathetic. Easy to diminish people for surviving stuff you never had to while you lived in your quiet west of Ireland homestead. I have pride in my country, all parts of it, occupied or unoccupied. I'm proud of my neighbours in Derry and Tyrone for surviving oppression. Just like I'm proud of the rest of Ireland for fighting back many decades before in the early 20th century. My respect for my fellow Irishmen doesn't stop at the Lifford bridge as it does in your worldview."]This is a good post. I always feel sorry for the men who had to pick sides in the civil war and can understand why both took different views. Personally I think the anti treaty side were wrong to undertaking a civil war when they obviously did not have the support of the Irish people (dail votes/ 1922 & 1923 elections). But some of the actions of the pro treaty side in civil war can not be defended either. bdbuddah (Meath) - Posts: 1413 - 31/05/2021 22:21:01 2347221 Link 1 |
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Are there convicted Republicans or Slavers with names on clubs and cups in Cavan? Must have missed that. No deal of ignorance here, I've lived in the North most of my adult life, so I'm well aware of how things are here. And I get why they are, just think things can move on and progress within ourselves, never minding what others say. Are we unable to change these? East Belfast GAA is indeed welcome. I know some who are involved, indeed I worked in East Belfast recently for 5 years. But could you not say concessions were given there, seeing that there is English, Irish, and Ulster Scots on their club badge, along with the Harland and Wolff cranes - historically a protestant symbol and a cold house for Nationalists. It's great the work being done there, and that of Linda Ervine with the Irish language, but they only are making an impression by making inroads with the PUL community there and reaching out. Not sticking to old battles that isn't needed anymore Loughduff Lad (Cavan) - Posts: 2479 - 31/05/2021 22:21:02 2347222 Link 0 |
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https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.irishexaminer.com/business/arid-20388959.html%3ftype=amp essmac (Tyrone) - Posts: 1141 - 31/05/2021 23:46:23 2347252 Link 2 |
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Irish men, women and children tortured and butchered and scattered to every corner of the world for centuries may be a strawman argument to you, but all it does is expose you as a loyalist/Unionist sympathizer. Calling martyrs and freedom fighters "convicted republicans" also demonstrates where your loyalties lie. I want to ask you a very hypothetical question, if all the loyalists/Unionists decided to leave the island of Ireland once it is reunited, would you still expect or want the same concessions as you do now ? AfricanGael (UK) - Posts: 1947 - 01/06/2021 09:28:38 2347277 Link 0 |
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I wrote the paragraph you're quoting and I don't know what your on about. I'm very straight talking and you should quit the deduction or you'll give yourself a headache.. I meant what I said and no more. I and many like me have pride in our country and feel no guilt whatsoever. The Free State did the best they could and fought a hard and bitter Civil war to stop the extremists and ultimately to prevent Lloyd George from sending over a tonne of soldiers to restore peace. Who knows what would have happened then. We might have no country or we might have been better off. Who knows. What I do know is I'm tired of the free ride Northern Republicans get in the media and online. Its constant victim ,victim stuff and we don't like it. Make Northern Ireland work...make an effort at least before you turn our place upside down aswell."]There's a lot of irony and hypocrisy from people with your mindset. It's not surprising though from an admirer of Eoghan Harris such as yourself. When it comes to the Civil War, extremism wasn't exclusive to the anti-Treaty side. The extremists on the Free State side committed atrocities e.g Ballyseedy and Ballintrillick, Sligo. Having lived/worked in the 6 Counties for almost a decade, your ignorance about the North is something to behold. It must have been very hard for you recently to have to put up with the inconvenience of the families of those murdered at Ballymurphy finally getting acknowledgement that their dead relatives were innocent."]I lived in Northern Ireland for 3 years. Had an enjoyable time there. Like I said, I got on well with both sides but probably had more in common with the Unionists, socially. So I'm not ignorant of the history, I just have a different point of view than you. You can read Irish history and see that the Unionists are right and the Nationalists are right.. bringing up individual atrocities is fine but there's plenty on both sides. I note when people here talk about their fellow country men in Northern Ireland they don't mean the Unionists. They arent considered. Thats a big problem. We owe the Nationalists up there nothing...not a thing. They have equality and parity of opportunity. The Civil war.. most on here are Anti Treaty..Its the popular Sinn fein,leftie working class, liberal thing isn't it. Id reject all that. All I can say is I'm proud of the pro treaty side and how they destroyed their enemy quickly and ruthlessly and then handed over power when they were voted out."]I want to respond to some of your points on a personal level, I would consider unionist Irish and I would respect those who wish to be considered British or Northern Irish it's there personal choice, I could be open to correction here but I think both George Best and Eddie Irvine considered themselves Irish and it doesn't bother me Rory Mcilroy distancing himself from the Republic of Ireland and associating himself as Northern Irish that's his business. Now I say this without prejudice and bias more as my own observations, there is a bigger problem with sectarian bigotry within the unionist political parties than there is within nationalists political parties. But at saying that there is certain things I would praise the unionist parties for. Just because someone supports an United Ireland doesn't make them a Sinn Fein supporter or a "leftie liberal" either, I wouldn't vote for them myself. The leftie working class as you mention it, is just a cheap stereo-type of people. The biggest promoters of leftie liberal politics in the Republic of Ireland at this moment are the yuppie middle-class if you ask me. And I despise woke left-wing politics myself and have challenged it on numerous occasions on this site. Now on the civil war, to me the idea of being proud of the pro-treaty side just sounds like childish triumphalism rubbish, these people carried out some of the most despicable acts of violence on anti-treaty soldiers and on civilians too, later on after the civil war in the 1930's alot of these men flirted with fascism as the blue-shirts and went to Spain to fight on the side of Franco in the Spanish civil war, some in Fine Gael would like to forget or deny this but these are facts. In Limerick on a couple of occasions in the 1930's Eoin O'Duffy and his blue-shirts tried to hold marches and rallies in the city and they were attacked and battered out of Limerick city by the locals. DUALSUPPORT (Limerick) - Posts: 1038 - 01/06/2021 09:30:52 2347279 Link 2 |
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I wrote the paragraph you're quoting and I don't know what your on about. I'm very straight talking and you should quit the deduction or you'll give yourself a headache.. I meant what I said and no more. I and many like me have pride in our country and feel no guilt whatsoever. The Free State did the best they could and fought a hard and bitter Civil war to stop the extremists and ultimately to prevent Lloyd George from sending over a tonne of soldiers to restore peace. Who knows what would have happened then. We might have no country or we might have been better off. Who knows. What I do know is I'm tired of the free ride Northern Republicans get in the media and online. Its constant victim ,victim stuff and we don't like it. Make Northern Ireland work...make an effort at least before you turn our place upside down aswell."]There's a lot of irony and hypocrisy from people with your mindset. It's not surprising though from an admirer of Eoghan Harris such as yourself. When it comes to the Civil War, extremism wasn't exclusive to the anti-Treaty side. The extremists on the Free State side committed atrocities e.g Ballyseedy and Ballintrillick, Sligo. Having lived/worked in the 6 Counties for almost a decade, your ignorance about the North is something to behold. It must have been very hard for you recently to have to put up with the inconvenience of the families of those murdered at Ballymurphy finally getting acknowledgement that their dead relatives were innocent."]I lived in Northern Ireland for 3 years. Had an enjoyable time there. Like I said, I got on well with both sides but probably had more in common with the Unionists, socially. So I'm not ignorant of the history, I just have a different point of view than you. You can read Irish history and see that the Unionists are right and the Nationalists are right.. bringing up individual atrocities is fine but there's plenty on both sides. I note when people here talk about their fellow country men in Northern Ireland they don't mean the Unionists. They arent considered. Thats a big problem. We owe the Nationalists up there nothing...not a thing. They have equality and parity of opportunity. The Civil war.. most on here are Anti Treaty..Its the popular Sinn fein,leftie working class, liberal thing isn't it. Id reject all that. All I can say is I'm proud of the pro treaty side and how they destroyed their enemy quickly and ruthlessly and then handed over power when they were voted out."]I want to respond to some of your points on a personal level, I would consider unionist Irish and I would respect those who wish to be considered British or Northern Irish it's there personal choice, I could be open to correction here but I think both George Best and Eddie Irvine considered themselves Irish and it doesn't bother me Rory Mcilroy distancing himself from the Republic of Ireland and associating himself as Northern Irish that's his business. Now I say this without prejudice and bias more as my own observations, there is a bigger problem with sectarian bigotry within the unionist political parties than there is within nationalists political parties. But at saying that there is certain things I would praise the unionist parties for. Just because someone supports an United Ireland doesn't make them a Sinn Fein supporter or a "leftie liberal" either, I wouldn't vote for them myself. The leftie working class as you mention it, is just a cheap stereo-type of people. The biggest promoters of leftie liberal politics in the Republic of Ireland at this moment are the yuppie middle-class if you ask me. And I despise woke left-wing politics myself and have challenged it on numerous occasions on this site. Now on the civil war, to me the idea of being proud of the pro-treaty side just sounds like childish triumphalism rubbish, these people carried out some of the most despicable acts of violence on anti-treaty soldiers and on civilians too, later on after the civil war in the 1930's alot of these men flirted with fascism as the blue-shirts and went to Spain to fight on the side of Franco in the Spanish civil war, some in Fine Gael would like to forget or deny this but these are facts. In Limerick on a couple of occasions in the 1930's Eoin O'Duffy and his blue-shirts tried to hold marches and rallies in the city and they were attacked and battered out of Limerick city by the locals."]The people of Ireland are entitled to self-determination maroondiesel (Mayo) - Posts: 1231 - 01/06/2021 10:24:01 2347299 Link 0 |
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Irish men, women and children tortured and butchered and scattered to every corner of the world for centuries may be a strawman argument to you, but all it does is expose you as a loyalist/Unionist sympathizer. Calling martyrs and freedom fighters "convicted republicans" also demonstrates where your loyalties lie. I want to ask you a very hypothetical question, if all the loyalists/Unionists decided to leave the island of Ireland once it is reunited, would you still expect or want the same concessions as you do now ?"]Do you understand what a straw man argument is? As you repeatedly make it with me. I have never made or debated any of the points above. You are the one who brought up the above points. All I did was call you on your statement of No Concessions, when it has been clear that the GAA has made many concessions for years now. And I simply stated what is true. They have been convicted. I get the cause and why they did so, I'm not going to whitewash history by looking back with hindsight, but simply stating it does not say anything about me. I brought it up as it is a contentious issue for many in the North and it is always mentioned as a stumbling block, which they clearly are whichever side of the divide, or how hardline or liberal you are. And I'm not just about about hardline loyalists by the way - you'll never tempt them anyway - I'm on about the moderates. Those who don't identify as solely being in either community, but are a modern definition of what they see themselves as Northern Irish. Many would play lots of sports and would likely play GAA if it was more inclusive and did not have names and such of divisive figures. Has this not been the whole point of this thread? You are never going to entice hardline loyalists. they will come up with a new excuse even if you did change the likes of those. It is the moderates who you need, they are now a bigger community than ever and growing, and if the GAA is to keep an upward curve, then those are the ones you need to invite in. I have simply pointed out what is clearly an issue and one that we can easily change. Is that so hard to understand? And yes is my answer, as I don't believe loyalists are the issue or should be the driver. It should be up to ourselves to recognise what needs to change and evolve. It's being inclusive to those who want to play by not using divisive mechanisms. Loughduff Lad (Cavan) - Posts: 2479 - 01/06/2021 10:26:39 2347301 Link 0 |
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Irish men, women and children tortured and butchered and scattered to every corner of the world for centuries may be a strawman argument to you, but all it does is expose you as a loyalist/Unionist sympathizer. Calling martyrs and freedom fighters "convicted republicans" also demonstrates where your loyalties lie. I want to ask you a very hypothetical question, if all the loyalists/Unionists decided to leave the island of Ireland once it is reunited, would you still expect or want the same concessions as you do now ?"]Do you understand what a straw man argument is? As you repeatedly make it with me. I have never made or debated any of the points above. You are the one who brought up the above points. All I did was call you on your statement of No Concessions, when it has been clear that the GAA has made many concessions for years now. And I simply stated what is true. They have been convicted. I get the cause and why they did so, I'm not going to whitewash history by looking back with hindsight, but simply stating it does not say anything about me. I brought it up as it is a contentious issue for many in the North and it is always mentioned as a stumbling block, which they clearly are whichever side of the divide, or how hardline or liberal you are. And I'm not just about about hardline loyalists by the way - you'll never tempt them anyway - I'm on about the moderates. Those who don't identify as solely being in either community, but are a modern definition of what they see themselves as Northern Irish. Many would play lots of sports and would likely play GAA if it was more inclusive and did not have names and such of divisive figures. Has this not been the whole point of this thread? You are never going to entice hardline loyalists. they will come up with a new excuse even if you did change the likes of those. It is the moderates who you need, they are now a bigger community than ever and growing, and if the GAA is to keep an upward curve, then those are the ones you need to invite in. I have simply pointed out what is clearly an issue and one that we can easily change. Is that so hard to understand? And yes is my answer, as I don't believe loyalists are the issue or should be the driver. It should be up to ourselves to recognise what needs to change and evolve. It's being inclusive to those who want to play by not using divisive mechanisms."]"Many would play lots of sports and would likely play GAA if it was more inclusive and did not have names and such of divisive figures" So you want to make concessions based on the "likelihood" that moderates might want to play Gaelic games. You have absolutely zero evidence that any significant amount of moderates would want to play Gaelic games if concessions were made and in any case why should any concessions be made to please a few. It's more likely that what you may gain to please a few would be lost by all those who would turn their back on the GAA for making concessions to begin with. AfricanGael (UK) - Posts: 1947 - 01/06/2021 11:18:51 2347321 Link 0 |
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I see the barbara pym trolls have moved to Hogan Stand now, pathethic. Tirchonaill1 (Donegal) - Posts: 3212 - 01/06/2021 11:27:53 2347324 Link 2 |
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Somebody should tell them the British empire is gone.
galwayford (Galway) - Posts: 2614 - 01/06/2021 11:46:15 2347328 Link 2 |
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They don't even have to try hard anymore.
Dubsfan28 (Dublin) - Posts: 2509 - 01/06/2021 12:00:48 2347335 Link 0 |
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https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-northern-ireland-57296833 Tirchonaillabu2012 (Donegal) - Posts: 7 - 01/06/2021 12:50:17 2347366 Link 0 |
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I think the GAA would need to start off the process of doing consultations of 1000+ Parents from Protestant schools both North and South to find out what changes are needed so Protestant Parents would feel comfortable to start bringing their 5+ year olds to their local GAA club. The GAA should also be doing consultations with Parents of ethnic minority groups to find out what it can do to help those Parents get their kids joining their local GAA clubs. I think the vast majority in GAA would be willing to make the necessary changes to make the GAA a modern cross community organisation. There will a few loud traditionalist who will object but with the right leadership and likes of Oisin highlighting the issue, it will happen. Tirchonaillabu2012 (Donegal) - Posts: 7 - 01/06/2021 13:20:30 2347375 Link 0 |
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Perhaps they will say that the only changes they need to be attracted to Gaelic football are that you can't touch the ball with your hands and that only goals count on the scoreboard. I'm sure you boys will make sure that happens. AfricanGael (UK) - Posts: 1947 - 01/06/2021 13:39:24 2347388 Link 0 |
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Jezus your just a lost cause. No hope for you.
Tirchonaillabu2012 (Donegal) - Posts: 7 - 01/06/2021 13:53:43 2347394 Link 2 |
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AfricanGael replied: "Many would play lots of sports and would likely play GAA if it was more inclusive and did not have names and such of divisive figures" Loughduff Lad (Cavan) - Posts: 2479 - 01/06/2021 14:11:59 2347397 Link 0 |