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Should There Be A Back Door For Football?

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Replying To supersub15:  "Galway's all Ireland success in 2001 came through the back door, from that I could only see the back door favouring the strong teams only, nothing has changed unfortunately since.

Wicklow's Baltinglass, - Longford's Mullinalaghta ,- Carlow's Eire Og and O'Hanrahans, all three played senior club football at national level successfully from mid '80 to 2016, in fact Baltinglass went all the way to win their all Ireland senior title. Eire Og had 2/3 all Ireland apperances with 4 leinster titles, O'Hanrahans won their leinster title, Longford's Mullinalaghta won their senior title. All this was achieved without the help of the back door, or the mark, or without the goal keepers monitored kick out's

Should we not agree that Leinster was much stronger then than now, should we not also agree that Wicklow, Carlow, and Longford were no stronger then than they are now.
I would hazard an guess and say the playing field was much leveller then than it is today.

There is absolutely no apparent reason why it should be easier for a so called weaker county to win a Provincial senior football title at club level than to win one at county level. ."
I do think the current system hurts Leinster football relative to other provinces though.

The backdoor isn't the only problem with Leinster football.

Dublin's increasing dominance certainly has an impact.
Leinster rugby's outreach to their less traditional areas has had an impact.
There's been drift in the population towards Dublin.
There's probably been an uptick in popularity in hurling in a number of Leinster counties. It's hard to be a dual county.

Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 3347 - 05/05/2021 09:54:53    2340055

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Replying To supersub15:  "Galway's all Ireland success in 2001 came through the back door, from that I could only see the back door favouring the strong teams only, nothing has changed unfortunately since.

Wicklow's Baltinglass, - Longford's Mullinalaghta ,- Carlow's Eire Og and O'Hanrahans, all three played senior club football at national level successfully from mid '80 to 2016, in fact Baltinglass went all the way to win their all Ireland senior title. Eire Og had 2/3 all Ireland apperances with 4 leinster titles, O'Hanrahans won their leinster title, Longford's Mullinalaghta won their senior title. All this was achieved without the help of the back door, or the mark, or without the goal keepers monitored kick out's

Should we not agree that Leinster was much stronger then than now, should we not also agree that Wicklow, Carlow, and Longford were no stronger then than they are now.
I would hazard an guess and say the playing field was much leveller then than it is today.

There is absolutely no apparent reason why it should be easier for a so called weaker county to win a Provincial senior football title at club level than to win one at county level. ."
Its a tricky thing when you compare club and county. I know that many top players in Antrim would rather skip the county set up to hopefully achieve something at club level. Which hurts the potential chances of doing anything as a county. But at the same time I can understand it from their point of view. Who wants to train for 6 months for 2 matches that they usually always lose? A big motive for doing so is potential success. Thats not going to happen for a county like Antrim in the AI as it stands. A 2 tier system I think would help a lot of counties on our level so long as its promoted properly. The vision of being involved at CP on AI final weekend should inspire more involvement from players and a real chance at progression over time. But it seems as though the GAA are only interested in the top bracket counties, hence the 'super 8s'.

SaffronDon (Antrim) - Posts: 2136 - 05/05/2021 11:17:52    2340077

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Replying To SaffronDon:  "Its a tricky thing when you compare club and county. I know that many top players in Antrim would rather skip the county set up to hopefully achieve something at club level. Which hurts the potential chances of doing anything as a county. But at the same time I can understand it from their point of view. Who wants to train for 6 months for 2 matches that they usually always lose? A big motive for doing so is potential success. Thats not going to happen for a county like Antrim in the AI as it stands. A 2 tier system I think would help a lot of counties on our level so long as its promoted properly. The vision of being involved at CP on AI final weekend should inspire more involvement from players and a real chance at progression over time. But it seems as though the GAA are only interested in the top bracket counties, hence the 'super 8s'."
For me the best way to having a meaningful 2nd tier competition is to have a good quality 1st tier competition.

The 2nd tier is worth playing for as it's the pathway to the main competition.

Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 3347 - 05/05/2021 16:42:25    2340135

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Replying To SaffronDon:  "Its a tricky thing when you compare club and county. I know that many top players in Antrim would rather skip the county set up to hopefully achieve something at club level. Which hurts the potential chances of doing anything as a county. But at the same time I can understand it from their point of view. Who wants to train for 6 months for 2 matches that they usually always lose? A big motive for doing so is potential success. Thats not going to happen for a county like Antrim in the AI as it stands. A 2 tier system I think would help a lot of counties on our level so long as its promoted properly. The vision of being involved at CP on AI final weekend should inspire more involvement from players and a real chance at progression over time. But it seems as though the GAA are only interested in the top bracket counties, hence the 'super 8s'."
A very simple competition that would be a huge improvement would be a top tier of 2 groups of 8.

Around the late 2000s Antrim would've had a team knocking on the door of the competition. A year playing at that level would be more beneficial for us than 5 years of the current system.

Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 3347 - 05/05/2021 16:45:00    2340137

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Replying To SaffronDon:  "Its a tricky thing when you compare club and county. I know that many top players in Antrim would rather skip the county set up to hopefully achieve something at club level. Which hurts the potential chances of doing anything as a county. But at the same time I can understand it from their point of view. Who wants to train for 6 months for 2 matches that they usually always lose? A big motive for doing so is potential success. Thats not going to happen for a county like Antrim in the AI as it stands. A 2 tier system I think would help a lot of counties on our level so long as its promoted properly. The vision of being involved at CP on AI final weekend should inspire more involvement from players and a real chance at progression over time. But it seems as though the GAA are only interested in the top bracket counties, hence the 'super 8s'."
Wicklow's Baltinglass, - Longford's Mullinalaghta ,- Carlow's Eire Og and O'Hanrahans, all three played senior club football at national level successfully from mid '80 to 2016, in fact Baltinglass went all the way to win their all Ireland senior title. Eire Og had 2/3 all Ireland apperances with 4 leinster titles, O'Hanrahans won their leinster title, Longford's Mullinalaghta won their senior title. All this was achieved without the help of the back door, or the mark, or without the goal keepers monitored kick out's.

I understand this debate is on the back door system in gaelic football and that's fair enough, now I'm going to put a different cat among different pigeons when I add Carlow's Mount Leinster Rangers into the mix, they won a Leinster senior hurling title and reached an all Ireland final a couple of years ago, keeping in mind that Carlow is classed as one of the weaker counties in both codes, so the question is how can Carlow be reasonably successful on the club scene but not on the Inter county scene, I have often asked myself what is the ultimate difference between club and county, my final answer on it is, on the club scene there is no county board interference or looking over your every move, it's as simple as that, It's my opinion and only an opinion that county boards play a big part in the success / failure of many counties. It's more than a coincidence that the above counties Wicklow's Baltinglass, - Longford's Mullinalaghta ,- Carlow's Eire Og and O'Hanrahans along with Carlow's Mount Leinster Rangers can have reasonable success on the senior club circuit but not at county level, it will almost impossible to convince me that county boards do not have a part to play in the inter county success / failure rate.

At inter county level the weaker counties have more obstacles to deal with other than the back door system.

supersub15 (Carlow) - Posts: 2275 - 06/05/2021 20:49:34    2340329

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So unfair that the footballers don't get a 2nd chance, when the hurlers do.

omahant (USA) - Posts: 1974 - 08/05/2021 04:05:37    2340496

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Replying To supersub15:  "Wicklow's Baltinglass, - Longford's Mullinalaghta ,- Carlow's Eire Og and O'Hanrahans, all three played senior club football at national level successfully from mid '80 to 2016, in fact Baltinglass went all the way to win their all Ireland senior title. Eire Og had 2/3 all Ireland apperances with 4 leinster titles, O'Hanrahans won their leinster title, Longford's Mullinalaghta won their senior title. All this was achieved without the help of the back door, or the mark, or without the goal keepers monitored kick out's.

I understand this debate is on the back door system in gaelic football and that's fair enough, now I'm going to put a different cat among different pigeons when I add Carlow's Mount Leinster Rangers into the mix, they won a Leinster senior hurling title and reached an all Ireland final a couple of years ago, keeping in mind that Carlow is classed as one of the weaker counties in both codes, so the question is how can Carlow be reasonably successful on the club scene but not on the Inter county scene, I have often asked myself what is the ultimate difference between club and county, my final answer on it is, on the club scene there is no county board interference or looking over your every move, it's as simple as that, It's my opinion and only an opinion that county boards play a big part in the success / failure of many counties. It's more than a coincidence that the above counties Wicklow's Baltinglass, - Longford's Mullinalaghta ,- Carlow's Eire Og and O'Hanrahans along with Carlow's Mount Leinster Rangers can have reasonable success on the senior club circuit but not at county level, it will almost impossible to convince me that county boards do not have a part to play in the inter county success / failure rate.

At inter county level the weaker counties have more obstacles to deal with other than the back door system."
Clubs are a little bit more uniformly sized too.

Bigger counties by playing population tend to have more clubs.

Carlow's playing talent is concentrated into fewer clubs than the stronger counties in either code.

To have a successful county team you need to bring talent together from a wide range of clubs.

So it's not exactly that clubs don't suffer from county board interference. It's that to have a successful county team you need cooperation that is generated from a well functioning county board.

You also just need weight of numbers.

Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 3347 - 08/05/2021 10:01:45    2340505

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Replying To Whammo86:  "Clubs are a little bit more uniformly sized too.

Bigger counties by playing population tend to have more clubs.

Carlow's playing talent is concentrated into fewer clubs than the stronger counties in either code.

To have a successful county team you need to bring talent together from a wide range of clubs.

So it's not exactly that clubs don't suffer from county board interference. It's that to have a successful county team you need cooperation that is generated from a well functioning county board.

You also just need weight of numbers."
I am sorry, but I am honestly not convinced overall, however to some extent "To have a successful county team you need to bring talent together from a wide range of clubs" and "Bigger counties by playing population tend to have more clubs". - yes to those, but just about.
The contradiction to club vs county success is evident in Mt. Leinster Rangers senior hurling (Carlow) and Mullinalaghta senior football (Longford) two of the smallest clubs in any county at senior level .that were victorious against the biggest and best.

"So it's not exactly that clubs don't suffer from county board interference. It's that to have a successful county team you need cooperation that is generated from a well-functioning county board."
"a well-functioning county board." Is by and large only applicable to the very successful counties.


You also just need weight of numbers. - - That didn't apply to Mt Leinster Rangers. (Carlow} or Mullinalaghta (Longford) they could barely field their respective teams and subs.

supersub15 (Carlow) - Posts: 2275 - 08/05/2021 21:50:32    2340613

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Replying To supersub15:  "I am sorry, but I am honestly not convinced overall, however to some extent "To have a successful county team you need to bring talent together from a wide range of clubs" and "Bigger counties by playing population tend to have more clubs". - yes to those, but just about.
The contradiction to club vs county success is evident in Mt. Leinster Rangers senior hurling (Carlow) and Mullinalaghta senior football (Longford) two of the smallest clubs in any county at senior level .that were victorious against the biggest and best.

"So it's not exactly that clubs don't suffer from county board interference. It's that to have a successful county team you need cooperation that is generated from a well-functioning county board."
"a well-functioning county board." Is by and large only applicable to the very successful counties.


You also just need weight of numbers. - - That didn't apply to Mt Leinster Rangers. (Carlow} or Mullinalaghta (Longford) they could barely field their respective teams and subs."
It's a different weight of numbers at county level.

You're dealing with much larger playing pools than club level. Variance comes into it way less.

You have a lot of small clubs in Ireland, there's a lot of chances for one exceptional team to emerge from a small club.

That one small club may be one that has copped on to an innovation or tactic that can give them and edge.

A handful of dominant players maybe even from one particularly strong family can give a small club enough of a punch.

At intercounty level where there's fewer bad players, it's harder for there to be really dominant players.

There's just lots of dynamics that make the ingredients for success at both levels not really comparable.

Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 3347 - 14/05/2021 09:35:56    2341632

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Replying To Whammo86:  "It's a different weight of numbers at county level.

You're dealing with much larger playing pools than club level. Variance comes into it way less.

You have a lot of small clubs in Ireland, there's a lot of chances for one exceptional team to emerge from a small club.

That one small club may be one that has copped on to an innovation or tactic that can give them and edge.

A handful of dominant players maybe even from one particularly strong family can give a small club enough of a punch.

At intercounty level where there's fewer bad players, it's harder for there to be really dominant players.

There's just lots of dynamics that make the ingredients for success at both levels not really comparable."
County or club, can I suggest it's all pro rata, in my view it's far too much of a coincidence to experience minnow clubs at senior level competing successfully against the heavy weights of the country.

(You're dealing with much larger playing pools than club level. Variance comes into it way less).
That can be a marked plus for counties, and an inhibitor for clubs.

The amount of senior clubs throughout the country are great in size and numbers, they are almost elite and star studded, in fact some would challenge and put it up to most div.4 counties.

There's excuses and there's excuses, but I'm convinced there's reasons. A common denominator for me is inadequate or weak county boards, that ultimately holds counties back.

supersub15 (Carlow) - Posts: 2275 - 14/05/2021 16:45:35    2341719

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Replying To supersub15:  "County or club, can I suggest it's all pro rata, in my view it's far too much of a coincidence to experience minnow clubs at senior level competing successfully against the heavy weights of the country.

(You're dealing with much larger playing pools than club level. Variance comes into it way less).
That can be a marked plus for counties, and an inhibitor for clubs.

The amount of senior clubs throughout the country are great in size and numbers, they are almost elite and star studded, in fact some would challenge and put it up to most div.4 counties.

There's excuses and there's excuses, but I'm convinced there's reasons. A common denominator for me is inadequate or weak county boards, that ultimately holds counties back."
Yes, you need a successful county board to have a good county team. I agree with that. It's way easier to effectively manage a small group of people particularly when they're likely to have a close relationship to their club.

Large clubs still do better than smaller clubs on average.

There's a greater frequency of small clubs, the ones that emerge come from a large number of clubs of a similar size. The bulk of the smaller clubs aren't going to touch the Ballymuns of this world.

The time of year that Provincial and All Ireland club championship takes place is likely a levelling factor too.

Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 3347 - 14/05/2021 18:53:28    2341738

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