National Forum

Tailteann Cup In Doubt

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Replying To horridweather:  "The Tulsi Gabbard Cup would be excellent, and even better if she was there in person to present it. Might give teams motivation to see her :)"
Who is tulsi gabbard? Did she ever play GAA or partake in scor or why would you suggest him??

the creeler (Cavan) - Posts: 512 - 08/03/2021 15:47:28    2333716

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Replying To horridweather:  "The Tulsi Gabbard Cup would be excellent, and even better if she was there in person to present it. Might give teams motivation to see her :)"
Fine bit a shtuff alright

Galway9801 (Galway) - Posts: 1705 - 08/03/2021 19:11:10    2333727

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Replying To tonguey:  "Could they not play off a competition as cutrain raiser to bigger games?? Like what used to happen years ago with minor games? Play the secondary/B Competition at 1.30 and the all Ireland championship game at 3.30 or whatever. Maybe it might gain some traction that way. As for names I would strongly argue for calling it after people's names, maybe the Peter McGinnitty Cup or the Joe Biden Cup (celebrate links between here and USA) etc."
Could they not play off a competition as cutrain raiser to bigger games?? Like what used to happen years ago with minor games? Play the secondary/B Competition at 1.30 and the all Ireland championship game at 3.30 or whatever. Maybe it might gain some traction that way.

They could but then people will complain about it because people don't show up until the end of the game.

No matter what is proposed there's going to be something wrong with it.

The other usual line about coverage is a big one. Yet the same counties are getting little to no coverage as it is yet there seems to be no problem with that. Yet talk about a second tier and all of a sudden it's very important.

oneoff (UK) - Posts: 1380 - 08/03/2021 22:36:52    2333742

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Replying To oneoff:  "Could they not play off a competition as cutrain raiser to bigger games?? Like what used to happen years ago with minor games? Play the secondary/B Competition at 1.30 and the all Ireland championship game at 3.30 or whatever. Maybe it might gain some traction that way.

They could but then people will complain about it because people don't show up until the end of the game.

No matter what is proposed there's going to be something wrong with it.

The other usual line about coverage is a big one. Yet the same counties are getting little to no coverage as it is yet there seems to be no problem with that. Yet talk about a second tier and all of a sudden it's very important."
Counties like tipperary , Derry, Cork, roscommon, down, armagh, west meath, even my own county galway, will if a second tier is introduced, spend time in it every so often, and assuming that the second tier gets no live coverage of full games (it definitely won't get much), then all of those counties will be affected, as most of them would be on television each summer at least once.
Even smaller counties like Leitrim and sligo will get the odd gig.
My fear under the new systems is that the media will lose interest in a 2nd tier , and seeing as how many people let the media do their thinking for them, then they will in turn lose interest.
Sponsorship money will definitely shrink.
The payoff is that one team out of the bottom 16 will win a trophy that not many people are bothered about.

Galway9801 (Galway) - Posts: 1705 - 09/03/2021 12:46:59    2333766

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It seems there are 2 real needs that we need to meet. First - every county should a chance of winning the All Ireland at the start of the season and second for a 2nd Tier completion that will give extra championship games to all counties.

I'd say the key here is for there to be fluid promotion and relegation between the 2 tiers and allow a way in for every county. There wouldn't be much between counties ranked 10 - 20 - a second tier competition without fluid promotion / relegation could quickly hamper stronger weaker counties.

So here's my idea:

Year 1 - Tier 1 will have the 4 provincial winners and the top ranked league teams (13 - 16 qualifying if Provincial winners are also qualified through their league position).

Following years:

Tier 1 - 16 teams; 4 groups of 4;
- First and second in each group to All Ireland Quarter-finals and on.
- Third place teams play for positions 9, 10, 11 & 12 (will be important for following year)
- Fourth place teams - relegated to tier 2

Tier 2 16 teams; 4 groups of 4;
- First and second in each group to play Quarter finals and so on
- 4 semi finalists promoted to Tier 1 for the following year

So the following year - Tier 1 will have the 8 quarter finalists from the previous year; the 4 Tier 2 semi finalists plus the 4 provincial winners. If a provincial winner is also qualified from the prior year their place goes to position 9 / 10 / 11 / 12 from the prior year.

I think a setup like that would be thoroughly entertaining bringing meaning to pretty much every game in both the provincial and All Ireland championships. Fluid promotion and relegation should push all teams forward with realistic goals.

brianb (Kildare) - Posts: 279 - 09/03/2021 14:34:46    2333771

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Replying To oneoff:  "Could they not play off a competition as cutrain raiser to bigger games?? Like what used to happen years ago with minor games? Play the secondary/B Competition at 1.30 and the all Ireland championship game at 3.30 or whatever. Maybe it might gain some traction that way.

They could but then people will complain about it because people don't show up until the end of the game.

No matter what is proposed there's going to be something wrong with it.

The other usual line about coverage is a big one. Yet the same counties are getting little to no coverage as it is yet there seems to be no problem with that. Yet talk about a second tier and all of a sudden it's very important."
Well the counties that are involved- their supporters would show up obviously. And quit with the negativity would you. It is so draining on the thing. So if say Roscommon were playing Sligo in a curtain raiser before the big game with say Mayo and Dublin you think the Roscommon/Sligo people woould only show up to see the end of their own game and stay for the other game?? that is incorrect in my opinion. I think it would work- the supporters of the smaller counties like the ones mentioned above and many others would get to see their own team play and then get to watch the big guns- nice day out for all the family and so forth.

the creeler (Cavan) - Posts: 512 - 09/03/2021 15:05:51    2333772

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Replying To tonguey:  "Well the counties that are involved- their supporters would show up obviously. And quit with the negativity would you. It is so draining on the thing. So if say Roscommon were playing Sligo in a curtain raiser before the big game with say Mayo and Dublin you think the Roscommon/Sligo people woould only show up to see the end of their own game and stay for the other game?? that is incorrect in my opinion. I think it would work- the supporters of the smaller counties like the ones mentioned above and many others would get to see their own team play and then get to watch the big guns- nice day out for all the family and so forth."
Obviously they wouldn't. I'm talking about the fans of the second game.

I think there should be a second trir. But the problem is no matter what's suggested there's going to be a problem with it. It's the same thing over and over again. It won't get coverage is one yet most of the countries in Div 3 and 4 already don't get coverage. The "we don't train all year to play in a B championship" but they will train to play in a championship where most will be out by June.

It makes no sense as players will play in different teirs at club level and have no problem with it. You'll never hear the line of every club deserves to play at senior level so why is it different at county level?

oneoff (UK) - Posts: 1380 - 09/03/2021 22:05:02    2333789

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Replying To tonguey:  "Well the counties that are involved- their supporters would show up obviously. And quit with the negativity would you. It is so draining on the thing. So if say Roscommon were playing Sligo in a curtain raiser before the big game with say Mayo and Dublin you think the Roscommon/Sligo people woould only show up to see the end of their own game and stay for the other game?? that is incorrect in my opinion. I think it would work- the supporters of the smaller counties like the ones mentioned above and many others would get to see their own team play and then get to watch the big guns- nice day out for all the family and so forth."
Might be a good competition for us to win to build on a successful base to win things but I am not convinced the powers that be have us weaker counties best interest at heart in the football realm.

Elphinwindmill (Roscommon) - Posts: 3 - 10/03/2021 08:08:30    2333796

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Replying To oneoff:  "Obviously they wouldn't. I'm talking about the fans of the second game.

I think there should be a second trir. But the problem is no matter what's suggested there's going to be a problem with it. It's the same thing over and over again. It won't get coverage is one yet most of the countries in Div 3 and 4 already don't get coverage. The "we don't train all year to play in a B championship" but they will train to play in a championship where most will be out by June.

It makes no sense as players will play in different teirs at club level and have no problem with it. You'll never hear the line of every club deserves to play at senior level so why is it different at county level?"
I have to say the no coverage argument annoys me. If we're only going to put on games for teams that draw a crowd or tv audience then we might as well forget having anything but a handful of teams playing.

I get coverage and profile being important in terms of sponsorship. I think there are things that could be done to help out weaker teams.

I still think realistically though that the current one tier competition is doing lower teams no favours. That there should be a focus on getting a good quality meaningful top championship where teams are guaranteed more than a couple competitive fixtures. You have a second tier that's important because it is the pathway to the top tier.

I think you do have to be careful to not go the way of the hurling where 3 tiers have become 5 tiers. Not all teams can or should be playing at all level where they are going to be in the shakeup to win things.

You need to play above your level to improve and you need to have a chance at staying up and building on any progress that you've made.

Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 4211 - 10/03/2021 09:44:21    2333798

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Replying To Elphinwindmill:  "Might be a good competition for us to win to build on a successful base to win things but I am not convinced the powers that be have us weaker counties best interest at heart in the football realm."
Yes I agree with that. Being from Cavan we know all about it. Every so often when the big boys take their eye off the ball it gives us a chance to sneak under the radar like this year. Ye are similar although ye have a better chance coz only two half decent teams in Connacht really and ye often play leitrim or Sligo in a semi final and then straight to a final. One big performance And one below par performance from the two big guys and ye are champions. We have a much harder route

the creeler (Cavan) - Posts: 512 - 10/03/2021 09:50:37    2333799

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Replying To Whammo86:  "I have to say the no coverage argument annoys me. If we're only going to put on games for teams that draw a crowd or tv audience then we might as well forget having anything but a handful of teams playing.

I get coverage and profile being important in terms of sponsorship. I think there are things that could be done to help out weaker teams.

I still think realistically though that the current one tier competition is doing lower teams no favours. That there should be a focus on getting a good quality meaningful top championship where teams are guaranteed more than a couple competitive fixtures. You have a second tier that's important because it is the pathway to the top tier.

I think you do have to be careful to not go the way of the hurling where 3 tiers have become 5 tiers. Not all teams can or should be playing at all level where they are going to be in the shakeup to win things.

You need to play above your level to improve and you need to have a chance at staying up and building on any progress that you've made."
I do think more teams should be getting coverage. The likes 9f Dublin, Kerry etc get plenty and especially in the case of Dublin are their games bringing in big viewing numbers on the basis that the results are almost a forgone conclusion? But to say lack of coverage is a reason to be against a second tier is just nonsense.

In my opinion what "weaker counties" actually want is for others to be brought down a level rather than them looking to push on and move up a level.

oneoff (UK) - Posts: 1380 - 10/03/2021 13:47:49    2333811

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Replying To oneoff:  "I do think more teams should be getting coverage. The likes 9f Dublin, Kerry etc get plenty and especially in the case of Dublin are their games bringing in big viewing numbers on the basis that the results are almost a forgone conclusion? But to say lack of coverage is a reason to be against a second tier is just nonsense.

In my opinion what "weaker counties" actually want is for others to be brought down a level rather than them looking to push on and move up a level."
I think Dublin v Laois/Wicklow/Carlow games are a waste of time being shown on tv.

You'd be better getting Longford v Meath, Westmeath v Kildare type games on tv.

Middling Ulster teams get a bit of coverage because the Ulster championship is somewhat competitive.

Sligo, Tipps and Clares of the world get the odd Provincial game shown.

I think provincials should stay but that something has to replace the qualifiers and not just be a knockout competition.

Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 4211 - 10/03/2021 15:18:49    2333816

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Replying To oneoff:  "I do think more teams should be getting coverage. The likes 9f Dublin, Kerry etc get plenty and especially in the case of Dublin are their games bringing in big viewing numbers on the basis that the results are almost a forgone conclusion? But to say lack of coverage is a reason to be against a second tier is just nonsense.

In my opinion what "weaker counties" actually want is for others to be brought down a level rather than them looking to push on and move up a level."
How can they be expected "to push on" whatever that means when the big counties are getting far more revenue??? So you expect counties like leitrim, Louth, Sligo etc to "push on" and ignore the fact that they are grossly underfunded, have much less commercial appeal, can't do the "fundraising" that other counties do etc. It's a lazy argument.

By suggesting they "push on" are you actually implying that they are not doing their best as it is?? That they actually have more to give?! That they are not doing their utmost best with the hand they have been dealt?!? Again it's just a lazy argument and nobody wants to dress the elephant in the tractor here.

the creeler (Cavan) - Posts: 512 - 10/03/2021 15:33:50    2333820

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Replying To oneoff:  "I do think more teams should be getting coverage. The likes 9f Dublin, Kerry etc get plenty and especially in the case of Dublin are their games bringing in big viewing numbers on the basis that the results are almost a forgone conclusion? But to say lack of coverage is a reason to be against a second tier is just nonsense.

In my opinion what "weaker counties" actually want is for others to be brought down a level rather than them looking to push on and move up a level."
How can equality in funding etc be looking to be brought down a level? There is no logic to that.

Elphinwindmill (Roscommon) - Posts: 3 - 10/03/2021 15:38:48    2333822

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Replying To tonguey:  "How can they be expected "to push on" whatever that means when the big counties are getting far more revenue??? So you expect counties like leitrim, Louth, Sligo etc to "push on" and ignore the fact that they are grossly underfunded, have much less commercial appeal, can't do the "fundraising" that other counties do etc. It's a lazy argument.

By suggesting they "push on" are you actually implying that they are not doing their best as it is?? That they actually have more to give?! That they are not doing their utmost best with the hand they have been dealt?!? Again it's just a lazy argument and nobody wants to dress the elephant in the tractor here."
I aggree with you on this...100%

Fairplayalways (Offaly) - Posts: 1034 - 10/03/2021 15:44:21    2333823

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Replying To tonguey:  "How can they be expected "to push on" whatever that means when the big counties are getting far more revenue??? So you expect counties like leitrim, Louth, Sligo etc to "push on" and ignore the fact that they are grossly underfunded, have much less commercial appeal, can't do the "fundraising" that other counties do etc. It's a lazy argument.

By suggesting they "push on" are you actually implying that they are not doing their best as it is?? That they actually have more to give?! That they are not doing their utmost best with the hand they have been dealt?!? Again it's just a lazy argument and nobody wants to dress the elephant in the tractor here."
But like, kerry have a smaller population than Cork, way smaller actually,, but they seem to be able to raise more money for their football team than Cork,,or if not Cork, certainly other counties with bigger populations than them. This would suggest to me that indeed, certain counties aren't doing their best.
Same with kilkenny in the hurling, they've one of the smallest populations in the county yet they raise more money than the sligo hurlers for example.
Kilkenny people just love the game more, avd are more committed to it than most counties. They're willing to put the work into training kids, passing the game down to their kids, raising funds etc.

I have no doubt in my mind that less successful gaa counties could be doing way more to promote the games within their towns avd parishes than they are currently doing,

Galway9801 (Galway) - Posts: 1705 - 10/03/2021 19:27:42    2333836

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Replying To Galway9801:  "But like, kerry have a smaller population than Cork, way smaller actually,, but they seem to be able to raise more money for their football team than Cork,,or if not Cork, certainly other counties with bigger populations than them. This would suggest to me that indeed, certain counties aren't doing their best.
Same with kilkenny in the hurling, they've one of the smallest populations in the county yet they raise more money than the sligo hurlers for example.
Kilkenny people just love the game more, avd are more committed to it than most counties. They're willing to put the work into training kids, passing the game down to their kids, raising funds etc.

I have no doubt in my mind that less successful gaa counties could be doing way more to promote the games within their towns avd parishes than they are currently doing,"
Well Galway haven't been setting any trees on fire with the football lately, they must not be doing enough in towns and parishes to promote it. Hurling has taken over there.

horridweather (Leitrim) - Posts: 7 - 10/03/2021 21:40:15    2333850

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Replying To tonguey:  "How can they be expected "to push on" whatever that means when the big counties are getting far more revenue??? So you expect counties like leitrim, Louth, Sligo etc to "push on" and ignore the fact that they are grossly underfunded, have much less commercial appeal, can't do the "fundraising" that other counties do etc. It's a lazy argument.

By suggesting they "push on" are you actually implying that they are not doing their best as it is?? That they actually have more to give?! That they are not doing their utmost best with the hand they have been dealt?!? Again it's just a lazy argument and nobody wants to dress the elephant in the tractor here."
This whole post just backs up what I've said.

There are counties who are against having a second tier who've taken huge beatings in recent years. Can you really say their "utmost best"?

Kerry hurlers were in Div 3 of the league in 2010 but by 2016 were in Div 1B. They're hugely under funded compared to the footballers. But how did they get move up? Because there was a grade they could compete in. Carlow and Westmesth have also played in Div 1B in recent times because of the same thing.

oneoff (UK) - Posts: 1380 - 10/03/2021 21:54:43    2333852

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Replying To Elphinwindmill:  "How can equality in funding etc be looking to be brought down a level? There is no logic to that."
Counties should have to earn extra funding etc the same way they should have to earn a right to play at the top level. Funding is totally out of cilter and have been for years regardless of what some might try and claim. But this argument of giving Div 4 teams more funding will suddenly change everything that's what there's no logic to.

oneoff (UK) - Posts: 1380 - 10/03/2021 21:58:26    2333854

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Replying To horridweather:  "Well Galway haven't been setting any trees on fire with the football lately, they must not be doing enough in towns and parishes to promote it. Hurling has taken over there."
Yeah,, I agree.

Galway9801 (Galway) - Posts: 1705 - 10/03/2021 22:19:23    2333855

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