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There's no harm in trying new things of course but the danger is trying the same things over and over again and expecting different results. In the past the B All-Ireland and the Tommy Murphy Cup both failed because of a complete lack of interest and promotion of those competitions and I can't see how tiers are going to catch on in intercounty championship football when they never have before. Also, we already have a perfectly good, 4 tiered competition in the NFL, which I think has grown substantially in importance and interest over the last 20 years. Why can't the Gaa continue to promote the NFL and also retain the provincials and have both competitions feed into a very straightforward KO for Sam. As for improving the fortunes of weaker counties, structures may help a little bit but without proper investment and promotion of the games in those counties then B, C etc competitions will make no difference. In fact they could actually reduce interest in those counties. Htaem (Meath) - Posts: 8657 - 02/03/2021 11:44:21 2333282 Link 11 |
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Look that's a fair point and I think most people understand that. But I'd imagine this is a worry for teams who were scheduled to play in this B competition and further confirms their concerns that they aren't being treated seriously. Personally, if Meath were in a B competition I'd have no interest in it and I can understand why some others feel the same about their own team. Htaem (Meath) - Posts: 8657 - 02/03/2021 11:58:01 2333287 Link 10 |
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I would argue four divisions aren't helping weaker teams at all. I believe three divisions would be of much more benefit, for example 10 counties in division one, 12 in division 2, 10 in division 3. Top two get promoted and bottom two relegated plus an extra chance with 3rd place in division 3 playing 3rd bottom in division 2 for a promotion/relegation playoff in the 3rd place home ground and the same for div 2 and 1. It would give a better incentive.
republicofcloone (Leitrim) - Posts: 375 - 02/03/2021 12:32:37 2333291 Link 1 |
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I think the issue with 3 divisions instead of 4 is the need for extra games, especially if there were 12 teams in Div 2! That would require 11 rounds of games to complete (which would probably take up over 3 months to finish when you factor in break weeks). Personally I like the 4 straight divisions (was never a fan of the A B structure), but if you were to cut that down to 3 then they'd have to be evenly spread, ie 11 in each division. Htaem (Meath) - Posts: 8657 - 02/03/2021 13:30:50 2333293 Link 10 |
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looking at alot of posts here, and the people saying the National League is treated seriously, I beg to differ, from the time sponsorship came into the GAA, the club championships have replaced the National League in rating of importance. As said in other posts, Donegal putting out a weak team in the final V Kerry as it was 2 weeks before their first round Ulster Championship game tells it all and to me is an insult to the many other teams who would take a National League title any day of the week...these Division 1, 2, 3 and 4 finals, I dont know...I over heard a fellah saying one time "we won the National League there 2 years ago" and when I looked into it his county won the Divsion 4 of the National League, yes, lads get medals and captains get cups, do they really be remembered in years to come..I know my own Offaly beat Down one time in a Division 3 final, the year escapes me, it was novel at the time but most will have forgotten as it wasnt an "out and out" National League win...your 1985 with Monaghan shocking the country by winning and 1986 with Laois winning coming up from Division 3 to win it, Offaly won in 1998 coming from Division 3 or 4 also..thats what the National League should be about and shocks will and do happen...playing out these one paced divisions, you win your divison, not further "acid" test before the championhip commences and in 5 or 10 years time there are so many cups given out for each division no one really takes it serious..organise the old system a bit better, fund it better, incentify it better and it will work again..finals for the sake of finals...the big teams never taken down a peg or two by a minnow... Fairplayalways (Offaly) - Posts: 1034 - 02/03/2021 13:59:31 2333298 Link 0 |
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I don't understand this line about the GAA being a business and that the bottom line is all that counts. I thought the GAA prided itself on being an amateur organisation. I get that you need money to run an organisation but it seems that the GAA are wasting money building stadiums that are only used a couple of times a year. Why not invest the money in the counties and help them become competitive, they would get a greater return doing this than wasting money having multiple 50,000 seater stadiums in Munster. How many times are these stadiums full? For a munster hurling final? I would envisage that they would need a 50,000 for the munster football final when there is only one serious football county in the province!!!! wicklowsupport (Wicklow) - Posts: 1909 - 02/03/2021 14:49:34 2333305 Link 0 |
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I agree with a lot of this post. The National League is very good while it's on, the matches look good on paper and can be entertaining. The competition does still suffer from being forgotten about once April hits. Kerry won this year's competition, I don't think that'd be considered any consolation for losing in Munster. There's only 1 show in town and that's the championship no matter what form it comes in. Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 4217 - 02/03/2021 14:55:56 2333306 Link 10 |
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I agree that more could be made of the leagues and incorporating them into the All Ireland would be very important. I wouldn't mind an All Ireland championship of 2 tiers of 2 groups of 8 in each. I actually think a proper second tier would benefit weaker teams. If Antrim were to get promotion to the top tier they'd hopefully benefit a lot from 7 games against top opposition. I don't think it'll change how many teams can win the All Ireland in any particular year but a 2 tier system with promotion and relegation increases the number of meaningful fixtures and that can help those just below the elite have a foundation to build from. Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 4217 - 02/03/2021 15:03:07 2333308 Link 9 |
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See the problem I have with that Whammo is you're going from a competition with 4 groups of 8 (the NFL) to another competiton with 4 groups of 8 (only difference being it's more like the old A B league format). Familiarity breeds contempt, I think people would get a little bit weary of basically the same format for both competitions. Also, why are we overlooking what we already have, the NFL is our premier tiered competition and should be treated as such. Again, I'd love to see both the NFL and the provincials feed directly into a 16 team straight KO for Sam. This would go some way to maintaining the importance of the provincials, while also giving division 3 and 4 teams (both of which would get a spot in the final 16) something to play for. I think this would really improve the importance of the NFL in general. Also, just as a final point, I prefer the championship to be as straightforward as possible, I'm fed up with the A B qualifiers and can't stand the Silly Super 8s. Htaem (Meath) - Posts: 8657 - 02/03/2021 15:33:47 2333313 Link 11 |
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Maybe Htaem the 16 teams that dont qualify for the knockout Sam Maguire competition could go into another Cup knock out that would be run parallel to Sam McGuire ?....keeps it all simple, allows all counties possible entry into Sam M, doubles everyones chances of actually winning a competition and means the other 16 teams don't finish their season earlier than the 16 that qualified for Sam M...therby every County gets the possibility of an equally long season every year...rather than just the same 3 or 4 Counties doing that every year ...Each round could play double headers of 1 game from each cup to up the profile of the 2nd Cup ??
Black+Blue (Galway) - Posts: 122 - 02/03/2021 16:55:24 2333323 Link 1 |
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Don't get me wrong Htaem, I do like your approach. It's a modification of the Jim McGuinness suggestion but with an accommodation of division 3 and 4 teams. and could work very well. My suggestion is just an alternative approach and I don't think it's better, I honestly think your approach would be a huge improvement on what we have. I do agree with you, there shouldn't be two very similar tournaments. I'd see there not being a National league and a championship. You'd simply have a provincial championship followed by the All Ireland championship that looks similar to the old National league. I'd have it that Provincial champions would qualify, plus then the 10 best others from the previous season's top championship and the finalists of the previous season's tier 2. I just look to the success of the hurling and they somewhat just replicated the old NHL but with a Provincial twist. The success of the hurling in my opinion has been that it facilitates more games between the top teams in the championship rather than the secondary competition. I like that there's a hard standard to play in tier 1. That's the reason to buy into tier 2, it's the main entry to the main championship. I just think the focus needs to go more on making a quality top tier championship and completely agree that it needs to be easily understood. We often focus on the second tier counties and coming up with convoluted ways of accommodating them. I'm from a long-standing second tier county. I don't think we should be patronised. If we're good enough we'll win our way to the top tier. Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 4217 - 02/03/2021 18:56:21 2333336 Link 11 |
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Well yes maybe so and gaurantee the winner of the 16 team B KO competition a place in the Sam 16 KO the following season to incentivise it. Again I think B competitions are a hard sell but it would certainly be no harm putting it forward as an option. Would give weaker teams a chance to play in June and July. Was just looking at the dates and this 16 team KO could work very well if both the NFL and provincials were finished by the end of May. With the split season rules to All-Ireland Final has to be played by the 29th Sunday of the year, which this year will be Sunday 18th July. So you could start on KO on the bank holiday weekend in June: Weekend 5th & 6th June = Last 16 Weekend 12th & 13th = Hurling weekend Weekend 19th & 20th = Quarter Finals Weekend 26th & 27th = Hurling Weekend Weekend 3rd & 4th July = Semi Finals Sunday 11th July = Hurling Final Subday 18th July = Football Final Htaem (Meath) - Posts: 8657 - 03/03/2021 10:22:15 2333381 Link 10 |
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Well I think we both agree that the current format is no longer fit for purpose Whammo, we might disagree on exactly how a new format should look but there's no harm in that, the more discussion and ideas the better. Whatever format we go with though, should be carefully considered and I wouldn't like weaker counties to be forced into a second tier against their will. If they unanimously decide that theu want a second tier and that it would be good for football within the county then fair enough, but I think the Gaa should be very engaging with Div3 and 4 teams before down that road. Finally, I agree regarding convoluted ways of accommodating weaker counties, whatever thre Gaa does in the long term, it should be as straightforward as possible. I hate tangled web style structures, and it's gone that way with Suoer 8s and B competitions that spring up from nowhere etc Htaem (Meath) - Posts: 8657 - 03/03/2021 10:37:14 2333383 Link 9 |
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I seen a facebook post last night remembering the Galway team of 1981 that won the National football league (propper) and that was very good team which Offaly had to get two runs at a year after to get to the All Ireland against Kerry...that Galway league win cemented that team for a few years and they got to the AI final in 1983 which has its own history when they lost to Dublin, but the team had won a National League and Connaught title no hiding around in the backround afraid to show their hand before the championship, sucess breeds sucess as they say..too many top teams now skulking aroudn with the league putting all bets on the championship for which they realistically have very very little chance of winning with the current set up..Give a decent prize for the a straight old style NFL, with all teams getting a go at winning it outright (yes let them play Division 2 and 3 finals if they want but all get a skelp then at Dublin and Kerry and Tyrone etc. in knockout stages propper..give incentives to county boards tp win (similar to winning the champions league only need I say not as a momentous prize money) and say if a Division 1 teams wins it, they get 20,000. Division 2 team wins it out they get 30,000 and so on down along - I am only using them amounts for examples, they could be lesser or higher depending on what would be deemed fair (no point giving Dublin €50,000 more thousand for winning from Division 1, I assumme all teams in the higher divisions get money from the GAA so adding a bit extra for winning the league isnt going to turn the boat over or anything...a team in Division 4 who would (a shock I know) win out the league propper woud get €50,000 for winning it, wouldnt that do wonders for football in such counties as division 4...look above isnt ideal or all aspects workable but its just an outline of how we might incentify especiall the lower divisons to give the league a right go every year...maybe I have spoiled a possible championship solution with my league solution....Offaly winning Division 3, (I wish) and getting promoted, then nothing else until the championship...no use to any team..
Fairplayalways (Offaly) - Posts: 1034 - 03/03/2021 13:00:55 2333402 Link 0 |
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As the old saying goes, the second tier will only become the first tier if the fifth tier becomes the third one and the fourth tier alternates biannually. the creeler (Cavan) - Posts: 512 - 03/03/2021 13:27:19 2333408 Link 1 |
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sorry, I dont get that to be honest..
Fairplayalways (Offaly) - Posts: 1034 - 03/03/2021 14:48:34 2333423 Link 0 |
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Yeah look I couldn't agree more with what you're saying here. Definitely couldn't cut off lower tier counties without some consensus and that could be where what I suggest could come unstuck were it to be proposed. I would see a more league style championship being of most benefit to the counties in that 5-16 ranked counties where they could hope to close the gap by playing a fuller program of games at a high level. Over the last 5 to 10 years Meath haven't had many great qualifier runs. They lost to opposition you'd expect them to beat in Leinster a few times but in the qualifiers they've tended to conduct themselves well but eventually lose to teams that we're strong enough too. Then that's it for their season. You'd kind of hope that in a league style competition those middling teams would benefit from more quality important fixtures. To make them not a waste of time there just needs to be promotion and relegation. I think the knockout style structures to help accommodate everyone is holding back the teams most likely to kick on. Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 4217 - 03/03/2021 15:23:24 2333431 Link 10 |
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Very good article in the Indepedent today about the negative impact this new split season will have on the GAA long term. Whilst good points are raised, ultimately the split season got through congress as the new arrangements are the perfect dates for a summer sport. The major media outlets would in my opinion prefer the inter county championship to be the sport that keeps subscriptions during the summer, but finishes before their winter sports start their season in August. sam1884 (UK) - Posts: 999 - 03/03/2021 16:26:17 2333440 Link 1 |
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Well u should
the creeler (Cavan) - Posts: 512 - 03/03/2021 16:31:54 2333441 Link 0 |
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whatever, may YOU do..
Fairplayalways (Offaly) - Posts: 1034 - 03/03/2021 22:15:44 2333469 Link 0 |