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Houses In Order?

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Replying To TheUsername:  "Too funny, i keep thinking of Maxwell Smart."
Ya , but a the surname would be a bit ironic for this poor gombeen.

catch22 (USA) - Posts: 2148 - 05/03/2021 15:40:51    2333582

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Replying To wicklowsupport:  "To be balanced about it, there is more than Dublin who are being backed by lots of money. Ok, Dublin probably have the biggest financial pot but there are other counties that have been mentioned on this thread who have massive backing from big companies or from wealth individuals abroad. The top hurling counties are the same. So if Dublin are being scrutinised, it should be extended to other top counties as it goes beyond Dublin. I had to laugh last Saturday when I heard that there was a motion to stop two captains receiving the cup at a presentation; the GAA Congress would discuss anything it seems aside from the obvious issues around semi professional counties competing against amateur counties due to the imbalance in resources. The answer from the GAA is that these weaker, less well resourced counties need to get their house in order, try harder, playing in a second competition but we won't investigate the imbalance in resources between the top and the bottom. Outside Dublin, I would think the imbalance at the top of hurling is more profound than in football. Imagine the difference in resource between Cork-Tipperary-Kilkenny and a hurling county like Roscommon. There are players in weaker counties that have as much talent as a hurler in a top county but they haven't a chance of making it due to the imbalance in terms of coaching and resources from underage up but they need to work harder to caught up!!!"
The fact is Dublin were relatively late to the commerical/financial game. Yes they had Arnott's but where a long way from reaching their potential. Kerry, Mayo, Tyrone through the lucrative Club Tyrone model all had hundreds of thousands of pounds being pumped into them and still do. This is just to name three but there are others.

Yes Dublin receive funding from the GAA for coaching and games across a huge population. I'm not naive not to see the GAA are facing challenging times, now Dublin GAA have got their commercial house in order.

A lot of frustration coming from other major counties, is because they had that advantage for decades and don't like they're now facing a new richer problem. In saying that there are a number of counties who were well able to afford multi million pound training centres, expensive training weekends, full time coaching staff to manage sports science and to spend close to one million euro in preparing county teams. It's the middle tier counties that now see a number of super powers above them.

sam1884 (UK) - Posts: 999 - 05/03/2021 20:38:52    2333592

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Replying To sam1884:  "The fact is Dublin were relatively late to the commerical/financial game. Yes they had Arnott's but where a long way from reaching their potential. Kerry, Mayo, Tyrone through the lucrative Club Tyrone model all had hundreds of thousands of pounds being pumped into them and still do. This is just to name three but there are others.

Yes Dublin receive funding from the GAA for coaching and games across a huge population. I'm not naive not to see the GAA are facing challenging times, now Dublin GAA have got their commercial house in order.

A lot of frustration coming from other major counties, is because they had that advantage for decades and don't like they're now facing a new richer problem. In saying that there are a number of counties who were well able to afford multi million pound training centres, expensive training weekends, full time coaching staff to manage sports science and to spend close to one million euro in preparing county teams. It's the middle tier counties that now see a number of super powers above them."
Some very good points here, Dublin surely have come up shoulder to shoulder with what other counties have been doing financially. To be honest I still think we could improve.

Other counties like to poor mouth, but there are many silk boxers underneath the paper suits and they have been spending to support success for a long time.

Taking the last normal fiscal year-of 2019 pre COVID as an example.

Dublins income was 5.24 million euro

https://www.independent.ie/sport/gaelic-games/dublin-gaas-annual-commercial-income-breaks-through-the-2m-barrier-38779148.html

Kerrys income was 6.1 million euro. (I know the much esteemed Kerry Mick would say Kerry have plenty of money and here is the evidence).

https://www.independent.ie/sport/gaelic-games/record-income-of-61m-helps-kerry-to-a-profit-despite-14m-spend-on-teams-38752612.html

I find the tone of those articles very interesting, Dublins more sensationalist, Kerry's more, so this happened.

Really I think you are looking at Cork, Mayo, Galway, Tyrone who can muster the type of income of the two above, maybe Meath and Kildare - if they put effort and strategy into it.

TheUsername (Dublin) - Posts: 4445 - 05/03/2021 21:46:06    2333595

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Replying To essmac:  "Former manager saying all chasing counties need to shape up. There's a lot of truth in that. Though it'd be a bit easier if e.g. Leitrim could afford 28 backroom staff and 3 physios lol. The US win lots of medals at Olympics. They have some great athletes, but they also have some great facilities and coaches. Money talks there, same as it does in GAA."
Thread title is a bit iffy, former manager could be anyone, chasing counties need to shape up, how many counties are chasing who, presumably Dublin.?

There's at least 15 / 20 other counties in the same boat as Leitrim in relation to affordability and costs of getting their county up and running for NFL / SFC.

The U.S. may win lots of medals at Olympics, but it's worth remembering the Olympic Games take place every 4 years, where as our gaelic games take place every year.

To compare Leitrim with Dublin and / or the United States is to say the least, doing Leitrim a disservice.

Without the Leitrim's you wouldn't have the Dublin's or the Tyrone's.

supersub15 (Carlow) - Posts: 2907 - 05/03/2021 21:52:16    2333596

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Replying To supersub15:  "Thread title is a bit iffy, former manager could be anyone, chasing counties need to shape up, how many counties are chasing who, presumably Dublin.?

There's at least 15 / 20 other counties in the same boat as Leitrim in relation to affordability and costs of getting their county up and running for NFL / SFC.

The U.S. may win lots of medals at Olympics, but it's worth remembering the Olympic Games take place every 4 years, where as our gaelic games take place every year.

To compare Leitrim with Dublin and / or the United States is to say the least, doing Leitrim a disservice.

Without the Leitrim's you wouldn't have the Dublin's or the Tyrone's."
I'm not getting at Leitrim. It was a story on Hoganstand. Think it was Kevin Walsh. Of course counties need to shape up, but my point is that it takes money to do so. You can't beat the big teams on enthusiasm. You need, as we all know, a dietitian and an experienced S&C guy and physios etc etc doing min 2 years full time work with a squad to get them to the point where the can even hope to compete. He normally talks a lot of sense, so maybe he was quoted out of context. You need money to fund the facilities and human resources needed. Enthusiasm will take you a bit of the way, but it's not enough. It costs money even to have the facilities and personnel that the "grassroots structures" depend on. If you haven't enough money, you can "shape up" til the cows come home, but you'll never win a thing. My US point was that good athletes from other countries often have to go to richer countries if they want to make it. They have the natural talent, but you can't shape up if your country lacks the facilities (e.g. full length swimming pools or fancy running tracks) and the experienced coaches needed to bring that talent on. National wealth is a big factor in Olympic success. No different, on a smaller scale, at county GAA. GAA HQ has NO PLAN to bring other counties to top table. Where is the plan to get everyone competitive? It doesn't exist. County boards are a mixed bag, some great, some living in the past. Some counties with lots of jobs and facilities, some counties with a lot less.
If you're a great player in a county with poor facilities, outdated structures, no money, and outdated coaching, shape up all you like mate, you're wasting your time and the GAA doesn't care. And, to add insult to injury, you'll also have folks telling you it's all your fault for not "shaping up".

essmac (Tyrone) - Posts: 1141 - 06/03/2021 01:57:43    2333598

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Replying To essmac:  "I'm not getting at Leitrim. It was a story on Hoganstand. Think it was Kevin Walsh. Of course counties need to shape up, but my point is that it takes money to do so. You can't beat the big teams on enthusiasm. You need, as we all know, a dietitian and an experienced S&C guy and physios etc etc doing min 2 years full time work with a squad to get them to the point where the can even hope to compete. He normally talks a lot of sense, so maybe he was quoted out of context. You need money to fund the facilities and human resources needed. Enthusiasm will take you a bit of the way, but it's not enough. It costs money even to have the facilities and personnel that the "grassroots structures" depend on. If you haven't enough money, you can "shape up" til the cows come home, but you'll never win a thing. My US point was that good athletes from other countries often have to go to richer countries if they want to make it. They have the natural talent, but you can't shape up if your country lacks the facilities (e.g. full length swimming pools or fancy running tracks) and the experienced coaches needed to bring that talent on. National wealth is a big factor in Olympic success. No different, on a smaller scale, at county GAA. GAA HQ has NO PLAN to bring other counties to top table. Where is the plan to get everyone competitive? It doesn't exist. County boards are a mixed bag, some great, some living in the past. Some counties with lots of jobs and facilities, some counties with a lot less.
If you're a great player in a county with poor facilities, outdated structures, no money, and outdated coaching, shape up all you like mate, you're wasting your time and the GAA doesn't care. And, to add insult to injury, you'll also have folks telling you it's all your fault for not "shaping up"."
Would agree with a lot of that Essmac... think the first part is for HQ to actually admit that the disparity actually exists... at least then they could draw up a plan to do something about it

Black+Blue (Galway) - Posts: 122 - 06/03/2021 10:37:32    2333604

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Replying To essmac:  "I'm not getting at Leitrim. It was a story on Hoganstand. Think it was Kevin Walsh. Of course counties need to shape up, but my point is that it takes money to do so. You can't beat the big teams on enthusiasm. You need, as we all know, a dietitian and an experienced S&C guy and physios etc etc doing min 2 years full time work with a squad to get them to the point where the can even hope to compete. He normally talks a lot of sense, so maybe he was quoted out of context. You need money to fund the facilities and human resources needed. Enthusiasm will take you a bit of the way, but it's not enough. It costs money even to have the facilities and personnel that the "grassroots structures" depend on. If you haven't enough money, you can "shape up" til the cows come home, but you'll never win a thing. My US point was that good athletes from other countries often have to go to richer countries if they want to make it. They have the natural talent, but you can't shape up if your country lacks the facilities (e.g. full length swimming pools or fancy running tracks) and the experienced coaches needed to bring that talent on. National wealth is a big factor in Olympic success. No different, on a smaller scale, at county GAA. GAA HQ has NO PLAN to bring other counties to top table. Where is the plan to get everyone competitive? It doesn't exist. County boards are a mixed bag, some great, some living in the past. Some counties with lots of jobs and facilities, some counties with a lot less.
If you're a great player in a county with poor facilities, outdated structures, no money, and outdated coaching, shape up all you like mate, you're wasting your time and the GAA doesn't care. And, to add insult to injury, you'll also have folks telling you it's all your fault for not "shaping up"."
Maybe that is where the GAA is heading, a top player born in a county like leitrim will never reach his potential due to the fact leitrim don't have the resources so he moves to Dublin or Tyrone and goes on to have a successful career. No disrespect to leitrim, only an example. The current imbalances are causing players in a lot of counties to retire-drop out of the inter county team as the gap is too big and the effort is too much plus there isn't much enjoyment. The GAA have to address the issues that exist or the gaps between levels will widen. Also, it is a complete distortion to think that there are 2 tier, top and bottom 16, there are about 4 tiers in reality.

wicklowsupport (Wicklow) - Posts: 1909 - 06/03/2021 10:56:29    2333605

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It's leprechaun economics posting income data without the expenditure data along side it, that's the part that counts.

AfricanGael (UK) - Posts: 1947 - 06/03/2021 11:00:21    2333606

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Replying To wicklowsupport:  "Maybe that is where the GAA is heading, a top player born in a county like leitrim will never reach his potential due to the fact leitrim don't have the resources so he moves to Dublin or Tyrone and goes on to have a successful career. No disrespect to leitrim, only an example. The current imbalances are causing players in a lot of counties to retire-drop out of the inter county team as the gap is too big and the effort is too much plus there isn't much enjoyment. The GAA have to address the issues that exist or the gaps between levels will widen. Also, it is a complete distortion to think that there are 2 tier, top and bottom 16, there are about 4 tiers in reality."
Would be hard to find a "top" 16 all right !!
Numbers 5 -16 would be on damage limitation.

Is it fair to say the biggest proportion of Counties are in the "Intermediate " or middle section ??

Most Counties are taking the National league games a lot more seriously these days so the league tables are probably a realistic valuation... ie. Bottom 2 teams in Div 1 seem to yo-yo up and down ( apart from Mayo relegation in 2020 )... but any County from number 7 to number 20 or 22 in the league tables would have a good crack at each other ? ...

Might stay like that at least untill the "great evaluation + re-distribution of resources " happens at HQ !

Black+Blue (Galway) - Posts: 122 - 06/03/2021 12:41:14    2333608

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Replying To essmac:  "I'm not getting at Leitrim. It was a story on Hoganstand. Think it was Kevin Walsh. Of course counties need to shape up, but my point is that it takes money to do so. You can't beat the big teams on enthusiasm. You need, as we all know, a dietitian and an experienced S&C guy and physios etc etc doing min 2 years full time work with a squad to get them to the point where the can even hope to compete. He normally talks a lot of sense, so maybe he was quoted out of context. You need money to fund the facilities and human resources needed. Enthusiasm will take you a bit of the way, but it's not enough. It costs money even to have the facilities and personnel that the "grassroots structures" depend on. If you haven't enough money, you can "shape up" til the cows come home, but you'll never win a thing. My US point was that good athletes from other countries often have to go to richer countries if they want to make it. They have the natural talent, but you can't shape up if your country lacks the facilities (e.g. full length swimming pools or fancy running tracks) and the experienced coaches needed to bring that talent on. National wealth is a big factor in Olympic success. No different, on a smaller scale, at county GAA. GAA HQ has NO PLAN to bring other counties to top table. Where is the plan to get everyone competitive? It doesn't exist. County boards are a mixed bag, some great, some living in the past. Some counties with lots of jobs and facilities, some counties with a lot less.
If you're a great player in a county with poor facilities, outdated structures, no money, and outdated coaching, shape up all you like mate, you're wasting your time and the GAA doesn't care. And, to add insult to injury, you'll also have folks telling you it's all your fault for not "shaping up"."
Every conceivable positive and negative issue concerning the gaa has been posted and read, reposted and reread hear year after year here on HS forum, but nothing positive or constructed has changed. The association, it's said prides itself on being an amateur and an all-inclusive association that in itself is very, very debateable.
You're obviously a man of words; your post came across very well and wanting for nothing. I would go as far as saying your post is the first of its kind to lend its support and highlight the disparity between the haves and have nots.

I had the foresight to see what was about to happen in 2000 / 01 when the back door system was introduce so I walked away from it, with no regrets. In hindsight I was right, it was at that point in time that the gap started to widen.

I posted a thread her titled, "Level the playing field." That given the chance it would have ticked all the boxes, but it wasn't and was conveniently kicked into touch shall we say.

Posts like yours that come from a strong and proven county are few and far between but are accepted by all with a round of applause, where as if a similar post came from a county of a lesser God it would be conveniently ignored.

Keep up the good work.

supersub15 (Carlow) - Posts: 2907 - 06/03/2021 13:15:18    2333609

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Replying To essmac:  "I'm not getting at Leitrim. It was a story on Hoganstand. Think it was Kevin Walsh. Of course counties need to shape up, but my point is that it takes money to do so. You can't beat the big teams on enthusiasm. You need, as we all know, a dietitian and an experienced S&C guy and physios etc etc doing min 2 years full time work with a squad to get them to the point where the can even hope to compete. He normally talks a lot of sense, so maybe he was quoted out of context. You need money to fund the facilities and human resources needed. Enthusiasm will take you a bit of the way, but it's not enough. It costs money even to have the facilities and personnel that the "grassroots structures" depend on. If you haven't enough money, you can "shape up" til the cows come home, but you'll never win a thing. My US point was that good athletes from other countries often have to go to richer countries if they want to make it. They have the natural talent, but you can't shape up if your country lacks the facilities (e.g. full length swimming pools or fancy running tracks) and the experienced coaches needed to bring that talent on. National wealth is a big factor in Olympic success. No different, on a smaller scale, at county GAA. GAA HQ has NO PLAN to bring other counties to top table. Where is the plan to get everyone competitive? It doesn't exist. County boards are a mixed bag, some great, some living in the past. Some counties with lots of jobs and facilities, some counties with a lot less.
If you're a great player in a county with poor facilities, outdated structures, no money, and outdated coaching, shape up all you like mate, you're wasting your time and the GAA doesn't care. And, to add insult to injury, you'll also have folks telling you it's all your fault for not "shaping up"."
It's hard to disagree; Mickey Harte had unbelievable success with Tyrone GAA. The club Tyrone modal started in 1995, and it's little coincidence underage and then senior success followed for Harte and Tyrone for the next decade and a half. Tyrone used their size, and county's business profile to maximum effect and brought with it a golden age for their teams.

Where I disagree with you; is in those days running a semi professional structure with the strength of an operation like club Tyrone brought you to the very top of the game.

The finance put into Tyrone nowadays allows them to stay around Div 1; mainly because their players have more money spent on them, resulting in better conditioning etc. Having facilities like Garvaghy can attract a bigger interest in players signing up, as it would be a great place to spend winter evenings.

As we see when they play a top 5 team in championship football, better conditioning is no longer an advantage and the teams with the better players win. My point is money is now essential to compete in around the top 12 teams, but even if Leitrim invested €2 million a year on preparing their senior team it would no longer bring them into the top 3 or 4 in the country and we could argue if they'd even bring them into Div 1.

We have super powers at the top of the GAA now, counties with size, tradition, facilities and players. Club Tyrone in many ways stole a march but the more traditional counties have caught up and a new innovation is required to catch the traditional counties again; something that goes beyond money.

sam1884 (UK) - Posts: 999 - 06/03/2021 13:21:53    2333610

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If we cannot identify the problem we will never find a solution. The county system was always flawed and it was a system designed in the 1920s. Compare to NFL system in US totally based on population designed a few years later. 32 teams in 22 states why? Because 28 States are just too small to compete or sustain a team that is competitive. We are just chasing shadows. I listened to Claire Byrne on Wed re GAA structures and solutions. No one here obviously watched it (still on rteplayer) which is disappointing. Because all we have here are hurlers on the ditch. You are never ever going to resolve the fact 24 counties are not going to win anything ever going forward. LGFA and Camogie recognise this fact, hurling too. But the denial in Gaelic football is breathtaking and it will be the death of the game. A lot here by the way realise this is a hopeless argument.

arock (Dublin) - Posts: 4895 - 06/03/2021 21:42:25    2333626

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Replying To arock:  "If we cannot identify the problem we will never find a solution. The county system was always flawed and it was a system designed in the 1920s. Compare to NFL system in US totally based on population designed a few years later. 32 teams in 22 states why? Because 28 States are just too small to compete or sustain a team that is competitive. We are just chasing shadows. I listened to Claire Byrne on Wed re GAA structures and solutions. No one here obviously watched it (still on rteplayer) which is disappointing. Because all we have here are hurlers on the ditch. You are never ever going to resolve the fact 24 counties are not going to win anything ever going forward. LGFA and Camogie recognise this fact, hurling too. But the denial in Gaelic football is breathtaking and it will be the death of the game. A lot here by the way realise this is a hopeless argument."
Agree with you totally but I'd say even 24 counties is a conservative number.... Football must follow the ladies structure or interest in it will diminish quickly with both supporters and players.... In the last 4/5 years attendance figures have dropped sharply and dropout from inter county panels has increased as well but all this seems to go unnoticed by the big wigs... There could be very choppy waters ahead

ForeverBlue2 (Cavan) - Posts: 1900 - 06/03/2021 23:32:19    2333628

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Replying To arock:  "If we cannot identify the problem we will never find a solution. The county system was always flawed and it was a system designed in the 1920s. Compare to NFL system in US totally based on population designed a few years later. 32 teams in 22 states why? Because 28 States are just too small to compete or sustain a team that is competitive. We are just chasing shadows. I listened to Claire Byrne on Wed re GAA structures and solutions. No one here obviously watched it (still on rteplayer) which is disappointing. Because all we have here are hurlers on the ditch. You are never ever going to resolve the fact 24 counties are not going to win anything ever going forward. LGFA and Camogie recognise this fact, hurling too. But the denial in Gaelic football is breathtaking and it will be the death of the game. A lot here by the way realise this is a hopeless argument."
Taking into account the whole island, the gaelic football championship is far more evenly balanced than the hurling one, avd while hurling has a tiered structure, almost no one outside the lower level counties, and almost no one in them too it has to be said, have much interest in those sub tournaments.
The ladies football championship is becoming a one team thing too.

Galway9801 (Galway) - Posts: 1698 - 06/03/2021 23:55:16    2333629

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Replying To arock:  "If we cannot identify the problem we will never find a solution. The county system was always flawed and it was a system designed in the 1920s. Compare to NFL system in US totally based on population designed a few years later. 32 teams in 22 states why? Because 28 States are just too small to compete or sustain a team that is competitive. We are just chasing shadows. I listened to Claire Byrne on Wed re GAA structures and solutions. No one here obviously watched it (still on rteplayer) which is disappointing. Because all we have here are hurlers on the ditch. You are never ever going to resolve the fact 24 counties are not going to win anything ever going forward. LGFA and Camogie recognise this fact, hurling too. But the denial in Gaelic football is breathtaking and it will be the death of the game. A lot here by the way realise this is a hopeless argument."
Struggling to grasp your point? FWIW NFL didn't start with 32 teams they have had multiple expansions and mergers to get to where they are, teams actually move cities and states as well, the Raiders moved from Oakland to Las Vegas last season for example. It's a privately owned for-profit structure by design, they also have draft systems and salary caps to try to maintain a competitive balance, otherwise big market teams would dominate like you see in baseball (and GAA coincidentally). None of what the NFL do to ensure fairness and balance can be applied to a boundary based amateur game like GAA unless we move away from the county structure, which is a long way away for all sorts of reasons.

Again, not trying to be a boll*x but what is you point and what are you trying to say? What do you think needs to be done to improve things?

I'd agree that there are probably 8-10 teams that can realistically challenge for an All Ireland under the current structure, but I'd add that there is one behemoth that is the default winner at this stage unless they get caught on a given day. The argument of a once in a generation great team has pretty much subsided at this stage as the Dublin team has turned over a couple of times since 2011. We'll have multi Username telling us about Kerry earning XYZ in one anomalous year shortly with zero context, and desperately trying to use that as proof that everything is grand, but the reality is that the game is in real trouble, there is a systemic competitive imbalance, and it is going to get to panic stage for GAA HQ in the near future as attendances and public interest fall away.

I'm not sure where it will end, there is no plan whatsoever as far as I can see because nobody would have ever envisaged it getting to this this point and nobody at a level that can make a difference is willing to discuss it meaningfully because it is a toxic and emotive topic that can blow up on you very quickly and make you public enemy among one faction or the other.

I commend Dublin and all they have achieved but surely we are at a point now where some uncomfortable questions can be asked about where the games premier competition is headed?

I would add that I do not have a solution. I don't want to see splits or mergers but I think we are nearing the point where the status quo is equally untenable.

GeniusGerry (Kerry) - Posts: 2105 - 07/03/2021 02:13:10    2333630

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Replying To GeniusGerry:  "Struggling to grasp your point? FWIW NFL didn't start with 32 teams they have had multiple expansions and mergers to get to where they are, teams actually move cities and states as well, the Raiders moved from Oakland to Las Vegas last season for example. It's a privately owned for-profit structure by design, they also have draft systems and salary caps to try to maintain a competitive balance, otherwise big market teams would dominate like you see in baseball (and GAA coincidentally). None of what the NFL do to ensure fairness and balance can be applied to a boundary based amateur game like GAA unless we move away from the county structure, which is a long way away for all sorts of reasons.

Again, not trying to be a boll*x but what is you point and what are you trying to say? What do you think needs to be done to improve things?

I'd agree that there are probably 8-10 teams that can realistically challenge for an All Ireland under the current structure, but I'd add that there is one behemoth that is the default winner at this stage unless they get caught on a given day. The argument of a once in a generation great team has pretty much subsided at this stage as the Dublin team has turned over a couple of times since 2011. We'll have multi Username telling us about Kerry earning XYZ in one anomalous year shortly with zero context, and desperately trying to use that as proof that everything is grand, but the reality is that the game is in real trouble, there is a systemic competitive imbalance, and it is going to get to panic stage for GAA HQ in the near future as attendances and public interest fall away.

I'm not sure where it will end, there is no plan whatsoever as far as I can see because nobody would have ever envisaged it getting to this this point and nobody at a level that can make a difference is willing to discuss it meaningfully because it is a toxic and emotive topic that can blow up on you very quickly and make you public enemy among one faction or the other.

I commend Dublin and all they have achieved but surely we are at a point now where some uncomfortable questions can be asked about where the games premier competition is headed?

I would add that I do not have a solution. I don't want to see splits or mergers but I think we are nearing the point where the status quo is equally untenable."
Yeah for all the arguments for and against, one thing that's certain is that this is not a once in a lifetime special group of players who have luckily come together at the same time.
Dublin have lost most of the team who started out this run of success in 2011-2016 and if anything are getting more unbeatable.

Galway9801 (Galway) - Posts: 1698 - 07/03/2021 10:00:25    2333633

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Replying To GeniusGerry:  "Struggling to grasp your point? FWIW NFL didn't start with 32 teams they have had multiple expansions and mergers to get to where they are, teams actually move cities and states as well, the Raiders moved from Oakland to Las Vegas last season for example. It's a privately owned for-profit structure by design, they also have draft systems and salary caps to try to maintain a competitive balance, otherwise big market teams would dominate like you see in baseball (and GAA coincidentally). None of what the NFL do to ensure fairness and balance can be applied to a boundary based amateur game like GAA unless we move away from the county structure, which is a long way away for all sorts of reasons.

Again, not trying to be a boll*x but what is you point and what are you trying to say? What do you think needs to be done to improve things?

I'd agree that there are probably 8-10 teams that can realistically challenge for an All Ireland under the current structure, but I'd add that there is one behemoth that is the default winner at this stage unless they get caught on a given day. The argument of a once in a generation great team has pretty much subsided at this stage as the Dublin team has turned over a couple of times since 2011. We'll have multi Username telling us about Kerry earning XYZ in one anomalous year shortly with zero context, and desperately trying to use that as proof that everything is grand, but the reality is that the game is in real trouble, there is a systemic competitive imbalance, and it is going to get to panic stage for GAA HQ in the near future as attendances and public interest fall away.

I'm not sure where it will end, there is no plan whatsoever as far as I can see because nobody would have ever envisaged it getting to this this point and nobody at a level that can make a difference is willing to discuss it meaningfully because it is a toxic and emotive topic that can blow up on you very quickly and make you public enemy among one faction or the other.

I commend Dublin and all they have achieved but surely we are at a point now where some uncomfortable questions can be asked about where the games premier competition is headed?

I would add that I do not have a solution. I don't want to see splits or mergers but I think we are nearing the point where the status quo is equally untenable."
And in ice hockey the league expanded from 6 teams in the late 60s and one of the richest clubs in any sport in the world the Toronto Maple Leafs haven't won the Stanley cup since expansion, even with all their riches.

republicofcloone (Leitrim) - Posts: 375 - 07/03/2021 10:32:19    2333635

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Replying To arock:  "If we cannot identify the problem we will never find a solution. The county system was always flawed and it was a system designed in the 1920s. Compare to NFL system in US totally based on population designed a few years later. 32 teams in 22 states why? Because 28 States are just too small to compete or sustain a team that is competitive. We are just chasing shadows. I listened to Claire Byrne on Wed re GAA structures and solutions. No one here obviously watched it (still on rteplayer) which is disappointing. Because all we have here are hurlers on the ditch. You are never ever going to resolve the fact 24 counties are not going to win anything ever going forward. LGFA and Camogie recognise this fact, hurling too. But the denial in Gaelic football is breathtaking and it will be the death of the game. A lot here by the way realise this is a hopeless argument."
One team is getting all the advantages in gaelic football, that isn't sustainable to have any sort of a competition and it is the glaring problem, which you've ignored there. Splitting the Dublin region into its four county council areas would even the playing field to a great degree.

republicofcloone (Leitrim) - Posts: 375 - 07/03/2021 10:36:02    2333636

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Replying To Galway9801:  "Yeah for all the arguments for and against, one thing that's certain is that this is not a once in a lifetime special group of players who have luckily come together at the same time.
Dublin have lost most of the team who started out this run of success in 2011-2016 and if anything are getting more unbeatable."
Personally im surprised we haven't been beaten. We were there for taking last year and overall im not sure we are as good as we were. Last year was a great opportunity for someone, but nobody took it and most counties you would have looked at potential bullets for Dublin, just didnt get that far themselves.

Overall if everyone being honest, if Dublin hadn't raised the bar on and off the field in what they do over the last decade, its the other "have lots" counties who would be winning titles. If Dublin go into a period regression, this decade and we are due one, we can say with certainty that Cork, Mayo, Kerry, Tyrone, Galway and other well resource counties are going to win all the titles over the next 10 years.

So the wheel keeps turning with just a different small group of counties year after year winning and that is the problem with true competitiveness in the game and the job of work of the GAA to enable competitiveness. The rest of the other well off counties will hitch their wagon to Leitrim and make arguments about competitiveness. But the dogs in the street know that if Dublin took a year off, its just one of the other afore mentioned counties winning because of thier advantages. Those counties are just basically saying "we really want a turn" - that comes with dumbing down the game. Did Tyrone, Kerry, Cork, Mayo Galway deserve to win the All Ireland last year - probably not. Im not sure fairness comes into their performances and what they brought home on the field.

In the role of honor we have Kerry on about 35 i think, then Dubilin on 30, the drop then is to single figures with Galway and 9. That really is ridiculous, the job of work in the GAA has to be aim to get counties from single figures to 20's etc. Im not sure there ever has been a level playing filed, but clearly Dublin are the most dominant force GAA has ever seen, thats a bad news story for the other traditionally successful counties, but also a good news story in a lot of ways. Ive been interested in seeing other counties progress in a lot ways over the last year or so - Cork are doing really well on and off the filed and i see success coming their way and fair play to play them, their isnt a trademark on what Dublin do.

But really id accept the viewpoint, if Dublin regress, you are into a few presently angnsty well off counties - who would like a turn at the top wheel for the next few years. But the imbalance will still exist really, the job of work of the GAA is the tackle the imbalance from DIV 2 down.

TheUsername (Dublin) - Posts: 4445 - 07/03/2021 10:52:04    2333638

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Replying To republicofcloone:  "One team is getting all the advantages in gaelic football, that isn't sustainable to have any sort of a competition and it is the glaring problem, which you've ignored there. Splitting the Dublin region into its four county council areas would even the playing field to a great degree."
I'm broadly open to the idea of a split, if it's done as part of an overhaul of the county system.

Without an overhaul, the split of Dublin would only benefit Kerry, Cork, Galway, Mayo, Meath, Kildare and the top Ulster sides. It'll be of zero benefit to the rest. The counties above have a mix of tradition and resources in their favour.

The split of Dublin could go a few.

1. There be very little engagement in it from within Dublin and the four new teams not being very good for a couple of decades. Successive waves of country migration needed into the capital to get the engagement back up to where it was. This is what happened after the foundation of the GAA and it took until the 1950s to get the GAA to a decent level among Dubliners. It probably wouldn't take as long this time but it could take a long time. I understand that this is actually quite desirable to some but again the benefit is only to those elite counties mentioned above.

2. It goes well and we have 4 competitive teams in Dublin. This is the worst option for the weaker counties as it'll make it nigh on impossible for anyone outside Dublin, Maeth and Kildare to win Leinster as they'll be the only counties with the tradition, population and resources to compete.

3. A mix of the above, as in maybe Fingal gets going and DLRD doesn't etc. Still does absolutely zero to level the playing field for the weaker counties.

MesAmis (Dublin) - Posts: 13705 - 07/03/2021 10:53:55    2333639

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