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"Level The Playing Field."

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Replying To omahant:  "It would be difficult from here to be honest!

Unlike hurling, football needs a facelift from top to bottom - rules, competitions, closer matches etc - it needs an IPL type structure - as those teams have no history, where do the fans come from ? - is football supposed to be exciting - or form over substance will just do ?"
It definitely doesn't need an overhaul from top to bottom.

Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 3633 - 17/05/2021 06:15:30    2342627

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I actually got to see most of the Cantwill highlights show yesterday - although most games were open, more traditional, old style football - opposite of blanket defense - the games left me cold. In fairness, too many mismatches - Kerry/Galw, Dubs/Rosc etc - Done/Tyr was decent.

Maybe I just love hurling and football doesn't do it for me - do any of you from so-called football counties prefer hurling ?

omahant (USA) - Posts: 2151 - 17/05/2021 18:34:40    2342888

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Replying To omahant:  "I actually got to see most of the Cantwill highlights show yesterday - although most games were open, more traditional, old style football - opposite of blanket defense - the games left me cold. In fairness, too many mismatches - Kerry/Galw, Dubs/Rosc etc - Done/Tyr was decent.

Maybe I just love hurling and football doesn't do it for me - do any of you from so-called football counties prefer hurling ?"
I'm from Kildare Ive never had much interest in football either, it doesn't really appeal to me, I never even played the game. I played Hurling for years since I was a kid .

Bon (Kildare) - Posts: 1392 - 17/05/2021 19:14:58    2342900

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Ok, so there are plenty of people who like football.

The competitiveness problem I think is overdone. We've 1 dominant team but outside of that I actually think the game is quite balanced.

Are Carlow, Antrim, Leitrim going to win the All Ireland, in the next 20 years, no.

Are there structures in place to allow them to improve and get more competitive. I'd say, kind of. The National leagues have been used by counties like Cavan, Monaghan, Roscommon to get themselves a platform to play at a higher level.

I think more can be done to get development through the championship.

I think it's kind of mad that the GAA still has its championship as a knockout based competition.

It's fine for knowing which is the top team but for getting more games in for progressing teams it's not great.

I think there's a cap to what can be attained by a secondary competition.

Teams are rotating their players heavily, they have different targets for their season and will treat the league with varying priorities. There isn't the same intensity as the main competition which is what it's all about.

It's why I think the game needs a review of its main competition.

As for the game itself, when it's played well I honestly think there are few games better than it. I include hurling in that. I see the appeal of hurling, it's fast and exciting. Top football games can have a lot of intensity to them and have interesting moves in their own right. I don't mind that football isn't a game of straight up and down the field, that the ball needs to be worked into a scoring zone.

I do think our main competition has a lot of faff before it gets interesting at the quarterfinal stage.

I also think the punditry in football are so demanding. If a game isn't particularly good they absolutely slate the game and rules and the players and the management and tactics. There's some truth to those criticisms at times but a lot of the time it's overdone. All sport's have bad games. All of them. Our expectations feel like they're off in Gaelic football. There's a traditionalism too that looks for any excuse to rail against the more game and I don't think it's fair a lot of the time.

Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 3633 - 18/05/2021 10:51:12    2343014

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Thanks Wham for that detailed recap of where football stands - and you are obviously able to provide greater colour on team player rotation being 'at home' /on the ground than someine like me from afar.

I feel it's ironic that because the game has become more strategic/"brainy" in recent times, with fitness levels to match - the cautious safety first, keep possession at all cost has dulled the game as a spectacle in my view. I remember decades ago, people saying the game was "brute force and ignorance" - but those games were more exciting too - although maybe Micheal O'Hehir was a bit over the top at times with his discriptions of some 'ordinary' plays. Watching the Dubs from the 70s recently, I was thinking that a Jimmy K would never get near a place on today's top intercounty teams - different times for sure.

omahant (USA) - Posts: 2151 - 18/05/2021 17:26:46    2343157

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Replying To omahant:  "Thanks Wham for that detailed recap of where football stands - and you are obviously able to provide greater colour on team player rotation being 'at home' /on the ground than someine like me from afar.

I feel it's ironic that because the game has become more strategic/"brainy" in recent times, with fitness levels to match - the cautious safety first, keep possession at all cost has dulled the game as a spectacle in my view. I remember decades ago, people saying the game was "brute force and ignorance" - but those games were more exciting too - although maybe Micheal O'Hehir was a bit over the top at times with his discriptions of some 'ordinary' plays. Watching the Dubs from the 70s recently, I was thinking that a Jimmy K would never get near a place on today's top intercounty teams - different times for sure."
The extreme caution is less of a factor to me than I think is made.

Yeah there are a lot of teams not up to the top standard. Even some of them are trying to play aggressively.

Meath got trounced in last year's Leinster final, they were trying to play man to man somewhat. They were pressing hard on kick outs and caught got to such.

There are plenty of teams moving away from an ultra defensive game but they're not at a standard to implement it.

Dublin play some awful keep ball at times to maintain their leads but their play to actually get ahead if fast, often very direct and clinical.

Teams playing more optimally isn't just a phenomenon in Gaelic Football, teams are smarter and less off the cuff/individualistic across sports including rugby and soccer too.

The preoccupation with trying to reign these changes in is futile and honestly I actually just think whilst it was exciting at the time, past games are just really bad to watch now with them being way more riddled with unforced errors.

Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 3633 - 19/05/2021 10:31:59    2343288

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Replying To Whammo86:  "The extreme caution is less of a factor to me than I think is made.

Yeah there are a lot of teams not up to the top standard. Even some of them are trying to play aggressively.

Meath got trounced in last year's Leinster final, they were trying to play man to man somewhat. They were pressing hard on kick outs and caught got to such.

There are plenty of teams moving away from an ultra defensive game but they're not at a standard to implement it.

Dublin play some awful keep ball at times to maintain their leads but their play to actually get ahead if fast, often very direct and clinical.

Teams playing more optimally isn't just a phenomenon in Gaelic Football, teams are smarter and less off the cuff/individualistic across sports including rugby and soccer too.

The preoccupation with trying to reign these changes in is futile and honestly I actually just think whilst it was exciting at the time, past games are just really bad to watch now with them being way more riddled with unforced errors."
The feed conveyor that ultimately feeds into senior club and county is not in the same demand to some counties as to others and that's a problem.

Ok, so there are plenty of people who like football.

Liking it is not enough, I think you have to be passionate about it.

Are Carlow, Antrim, Leitrim going to win the All Ireland, in the next 20 years, no. (agree with that)

But it's also likely that neither will Cavan, Monaghan, Roscommon and others (with respect)


I think it's kind of mad that the GAA still has its championship as a knockout based competition.
Can't say I agree with that, just look at 2020 championship, exciting games with exciting results, curtsey of the open draw.


Teams are rotating their players heavily; they have different targets for their season and will treat the league with varying priorities. There isn't the same intensity as the main competition which is what it's all about.


There are some counties that unfortunately they only have a small pool of players at their disposal so they can't rotate as freely as they would like'


As for the game itself, in my view if we look back to the golden age of Kerry / Dublin football of the mid 70's through the 80's that's how football should be played, no blanket defence, and defame back passing, no walking the ball goal wards trying to find the net. The All Ireland final of 2020 I thought was very exciting helped in no small way by Mayo's presence helped by their attitude and resilience.


I do think our main competition has a lot of faff before it gets interesting at the quarterfinal stage.


That may be through the process of elimination, cream rising to the top so to speak.
As for the punditry all that stuff has changed since Michael Leyster left the scene, he had a way about him of getting the best from the pundits he could steer them in and out of topics to make them more interesting and away from the heat, since his departure it's all about time, and script prepared stuff, pre match analysis has lost it's magic as well, that's before a ball is kicked, unfortunately it's mostly about stage presence and window dressing now. Perhaps the whole thing needs to be reinvented.

supersub15 (Carlow) - Posts: 2470 - 20/05/2021 13:28:13    2343637

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Replying To supersub15:  "The feed conveyor that ultimately feeds into senior club and county is not in the same demand to some counties as to others and that's a problem.

Ok, so there are plenty of people who like football.

Liking it is not enough, I think you have to be passionate about it.

Are Carlow, Antrim, Leitrim going to win the All Ireland, in the next 20 years, no. (agree with that)

But it's also likely that neither will Cavan, Monaghan, Roscommon and others (with respect)


I think it's kind of mad that the GAA still has its championship as a knockout based competition.
Can't say I agree with that, just look at 2020 championship, exciting games with exciting results, curtsey of the open draw.


Teams are rotating their players heavily; they have different targets for their season and will treat the league with varying priorities. There isn't the same intensity as the main competition which is what it's all about.


There are some counties that unfortunately they only have a small pool of players at their disposal so they can't rotate as freely as they would like'


As for the game itself, in my view if we look back to the golden age of Kerry / Dublin football of the mid 70's through the 80's that's how football should be played, no blanket defence, and defame back passing, no walking the ball goal wards trying to find the net. The All Ireland final of 2020 I thought was very exciting helped in no small way by Mayo's presence helped by their attitude and resilience.


I do think our main competition has a lot of faff before it gets interesting at the quarterfinal stage.


That may be through the process of elimination, cream rising to the top so to speak.
As for the punditry all that stuff has changed since Michael Leyster left the scene, he had a way about him of getting the best from the pundits he could steer them in and out of topics to make them more interesting and away from the heat, since his departure it's all about time, and script prepared stuff, pre match analysis has lost it's magic as well, that's before a ball is kicked, unfortunately it's mostly about stage presence and window dressing now. Perhaps the whole thing needs to be reinvented."
I'd be really passionate about the game. That was my understated nature coming through there.

I definitely think things aren't perfect in football. There needs to be greater depth to the competition.

When you have 2 good teams wanting to win, I think there's still the recipe for an incredible spectacle.

In the last 10 years there have been plenty of cracking semifinals and finals. More crackers than duds really.

I honestly don't think the top teams play a blanket defense style anymore.

Tyrone in 2017 getting pummelled by Dublin was a bit of a death knell of that reactive game plan at the top level.

Teams don't mark man for man anymore and individual battles are less prominent. It is a shame that's how it's went.

It hasn't been all bad what has replaced it though. Flowing, fast, direct football in transition and better team cohesion has emerged. I find that a pleasure to watch. Unfortunately there's a very small pool of teams with the capacity to do it is certainly a problem.

Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 3633 - 20/05/2021 15:08:49    2343676

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I think "entertainment" in gaelic football as a spectacle should be key, even if rule changes are needed to engineer it. When the Dubs at times are sizing up a potential attack at goal (for a point), they play a long elaborate series of passes, stretching the wings, presumably to get an opening up the middle. If that gap closes, it's back to square one, passing the ball toward midfield or the defense before rebuilding once more. It's smart but it's too much like midcourt analysis in basketball. I don't care how smart it is - I want to be able to watch and enjoy.

Maybe it's just my personal preference for sports - like I love Rugby Union, but League doesn't do it for me - tackle, down, reset, hit wall, down, reset, hit wall, down - and the scrums are a joke, might as well tap and go - I prefer the variety in Union - run with the ball, bounce kick to touch for territorial advantage, the lineouts - I love how rule changes have evolved - placing ball on ground after tackle (less rucks like 70s) , scrum half picks up again, open play, so "entertaining". I want to get excited about gaelic football too.

omahant (USA) - Posts: 2151 - 21/05/2021 01:58:40    2343803

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Replying To omahant:  "I think "entertainment" in gaelic football as a spectacle should be key, even if rule changes are needed to engineer it. When the Dubs at times are sizing up a potential attack at goal (for a point), they play a long elaborate series of passes, stretching the wings, presumably to get an opening up the middle. If that gap closes, it's back to square one, passing the ball toward midfield or the defense before rebuilding once more. It's smart but it's too much like midcourt analysis in basketball. I don't care how smart it is - I want to be able to watch and enjoy.

Maybe it's just my personal preference for sports - like I love Rugby Union, but League doesn't do it for me - tackle, down, reset, hit wall, down, reset, hit wall, down - and the scrums are a joke, might as well tap and go - I prefer the variety in Union - run with the ball, bounce kick to touch for territorial advantage, the lineouts - I love how rule changes have evolved - placing ball on ground after tackle (less rucks like 70s) , scrum half picks up again, open play, so "entertaining". I want to get excited about gaelic football too."
I agree in Gaelic that I think that being able to recycle back so much is a problem.

I don't know whether the problem is on the rules or that the defending team need to backwards press more.

A rule change that I wouldn't be against is that in a possession the attacking team can't pass back over 2 lines.

If they've made it beyond their 45 they can't play back behind the 21. If they go beyond the 65 they can play back behind their own 45, something along those lines.

The big problem in football is that the effective playing area is very large. In hurling it's fine because the scoring zone is much wider and it's harder to retain possession.

In football it is too easy to retain possession playing backwards.

Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 3633 - 21/05/2021 10:09:14    2343823

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Replying To omahant:  "I think "entertainment" in gaelic football as a spectacle should be key, even if rule changes are needed to engineer it. When the Dubs at times are sizing up a potential attack at goal (for a point), they play a long elaborate series of passes, stretching the wings, presumably to get an opening up the middle. If that gap closes, it's back to square one, passing the ball toward midfield or the defense before rebuilding once more. It's smart but it's too much like midcourt analysis in basketball. I don't care how smart it is - I want to be able to watch and enjoy.

Maybe it's just my personal preference for sports - like I love Rugby Union, but League doesn't do it for me - tackle, down, reset, hit wall, down, reset, hit wall, down - and the scrums are a joke, might as well tap and go - I prefer the variety in Union - run with the ball, bounce kick to touch for territorial advantage, the lineouts - I love how rule changes have evolved - placing ball on ground after tackle (less rucks like 70s) , scrum half picks up again, open play, so "entertaining". I want to get excited about gaelic football too."
Unfortunately for me as a spectator teams want to win rather than entertain. But I understand why that is.

Viking66 (Wexford) - Posts: 3341 - 21/05/2021 10:17:09    2343826

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Replying To Viking66:  "Unfortunately for me as a spectator teams want to win rather than entertain. But I understand why that is."
I don't think the spectacle is that bad most of the time.

The Dublin style retain possession when winning is drab but when a game is in the balance I think there is a lot of excitement.

A tweak making it harder to retain possession by playing backwards would do a world of good I think.

I'd get rid of some of the recent changes though. I hate all the marks that were introduced.

Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 3633 - 21/05/2021 10:47:43    2343835

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I'd get rid of the mark and the palmed in goals, I hate them, not sure how you can stop a team retaining possession and playing back around in their own half to wind down the clock, the more we mess around with rules the worse it is for referees and it just ruins the game for me, the black card is still a joke.

Tirchonaill1 (Donegal) - Posts: 1802 - 21/05/2021 11:04:29    2343839

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Replying To Tirchonaill1:  "I'd get rid of the mark and the palmed in goals, I hate them, not sure how you can stop a team retaining possession and playing back around in their own half to wind down the clock, the more we mess around with rules the worse it is for referees and it just ruins the game for me, the black card is still a joke."
In 7 a side you can't play the ball back into your half again, it's very easy for that to be implemented. I don't really see why that couldn't be added to 15 a side.

The marks are rubbish.

I'd keep palmed goals, otherwise teams won't be even interested in going for goal at all.

Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 3633 - 21/05/2021 15:00:35    2343930

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Replying To Whammo86:  "I agree in Gaelic that I think that being able to recycle back so much is a problem.

I don't know whether the problem is on the rules or that the defending team need to backwards press more.

A rule change that I wouldn't be against is that in a possession the attacking team can't pass back over 2 lines.

If they've made it beyond their 45 they can't play back behind the 21. If they go beyond the 65 they can play back behind their own 45, something along those lines.

The big problem in football is that the effective playing area is very large. In hurling it's fine because the scoring zone is much wider and it's harder to retain possession.

In football it is too easy to retain possession playing backwards."
I had a two-line idea too - mine mandated a defence with ball possessuon to kick forward over two lines from either behind Own 45 or 65. Maybe it would be better if it was required by the '3rd player'in a possession sequence - after two passess, by hand or foot, that 3rd man must kick two lines from anywhere - so a 3rd player receiving a pass inside the Opponent's 45, needs to find a teammate inside the 13 or score. This would produce a faster game, with the ball being a hot potato at times. With the foward two-line requirement, you could now allow certain strategic back passes that doesn't cause blight in the game.

omahant (USA) - Posts: 2151 - 22/05/2021 04:56:57    2344098

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Replying To omahant:  "I had a two-line idea too - mine mandated a defence with ball possessuon to kick forward over two lines from either behind Own 45 or 65. Maybe it would be better if it was required by the '3rd player'in a possession sequence - after two passess, by hand or foot, that 3rd man must kick two lines from anywhere - so a 3rd player receiving a pass inside the Opponent's 45, needs to find a teammate inside the 13 or score. This would produce a faster game, with the ball being a hot potato at times. With the foward two-line requirement, you could now allow certain strategic back passes that doesn't cause blight in the game."
I don't think we should force teams to kick.

There are different traditional styles of the game that have developed over the years and I wouldn't want rules that intentionally force hand passing styles out.

Well constructed hand passing moves combining multiple players coordinated with one another can be a pleasure to watch. I think it's additive to the game and I wouldn't want us homogenising the game to force every team to play a kicking game.

It sounds like your plan is to make football more like hurling. I don't think we want to do that.

Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 3633 - 22/05/2021 10:16:53    2344119

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Replying To Whammo86:  "I don't think we should force teams to kick.

There are different traditional styles of the game that have developed over the years and I wouldn't want rules that intentionally force hand passing styles out.

Well constructed hand passing moves combining multiple players coordinated with one another can be a pleasure to watch. I think it's additive to the game and I wouldn't want us homogenising the game to force every team to play a kicking game.

It sounds like your plan is to make football more like hurling. I don't think we want to do that."
Personally I think too much hand passing has destroyed the game, an absolute skilless spectacle. I would ban any more that two consecutive hand passes and punish any infringement with a free. Also in relation to palmed goals, absolutely horrible, in fact I believe that all scores should be taken by the foot.

For a team to run the length of the field, hand pass the ball all the way and then palm the ball into the net, I'm sorry but that's not Gaelic football, that's a poor mans cross between basketball and rugby.

We have enough robots playing the game as we are, we don't want anymore, thanks.

AfricanGael (UK) - Posts: 1946 - 22/05/2021 10:55:01    2344122

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Replying To AfricanGael:  "Personally I think too much hand passing has destroyed the game, an absolute skilless spectacle. I would ban any more that two consecutive hand passes and punish any infringement with a free. Also in relation to palmed goals, absolutely horrible, in fact I believe that all scores should be taken by the foot.

For a team to run the length of the field, hand pass the ball all the way and then palm the ball into the net, I'm sorry but that's not Gaelic football, that's a poor mans cross between basketball and rugby.

We have enough robots playing the game as we are, we don't want anymore, thanks.
"
Obviously Gaelic football has its roots in traditional Irish games of football like Caid which was prominent in Kerry.

When Gaelic football was codified though it was intentionally looking to take the best elements of soccer AND rugby to create its game. The hand pass was an important element of that earliest of games. So really those that say the hand pass isn't really football are just plainly ignorant of the history and roots of our game.

What you describe about hand passing all the way up the pitch is just overly negative hyperbole, it doesn't really happen. Top teams can and do vary their play to work their chances. Without hand passing the mass defense strategy would be even more effective than it already is.

Anyway look you're prone to overly negative hyperbole across a lot of your postings here, so much so that you're just not really worth paying attention to and I've already given you more of a response than you deserve.

Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 3633 - 22/05/2021 15:08:11    2344173

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Replying To Whammo86:  "
Replying To AfricanGael:  "Personally I think too much hand passing has destroyed the game, an absolute skilless spectacle. I would ban any more that two consecutive hand passes and punish any infringement with a free. Also in relation to palmed goals, absolutely horrible, in fact I believe that all scores should be taken by the foot.

For a team to run the length of the field, hand pass the ball all the way and then palm the ball into the net, I'm sorry but that's not Gaelic football, that's a poor mans cross between basketball and rugby.

We have enough robots playing the game as we are, we don't want anymore, thanks.
"
Obviously Gaelic football has its roots in traditional Irish games of football like Caid which was prominent in Kerry.

When Gaelic football was codified though it was intentionally looking to take the best elements of soccer AND rugby to create its game. The hand pass was an important element of that earliest of games. So really those that say the hand pass isn't really football are just plainly ignorant of the history and roots of our game.

What you describe about hand passing all the way up the pitch is just overly negative hyperbole, it doesn't really happen. Top teams can and do vary their play to work their chances. Without hand passing the mass defense strategy would be even more effective than it already is.

Anyway look you're prone to overly negative hyperbole across a lot of your postings here, so much so that you're just not really worth paying attention to and I've already given you more of a response than you deserve."
If you have to go back to medievil times to try and justify your obsession with hand passing then I think it's clear your argument is flawed. My experience is that it is always those who aren't very good at football who love the hand passing as much as you clearly do.

AfricanGael (UK) - Posts: 1946 - 22/05/2021 16:51:51    2344193

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Replying To AfricanGael:  "
Replying To Whammo86:  "[quote=AfricanGael:  "Personally I think too much hand passing has destroyed the game, an absolute skilless spectacle. I would ban any more that two consecutive hand passes and punish any infringement with a free. Also in relation to palmed goals, absolutely horrible, in fact I believe that all scores should be taken by the foot.

For a team to run the length of the field, hand pass the ball all the way and then palm the ball into the net, I'm sorry but that's not Gaelic football, that's a poor mans cross between basketball and rugby.

We have enough robots playing the game as we are, we don't want anymore, thanks.
"
Obviously Gaelic football has its roots in traditional Irish games of football like Caid which was prominent in Kerry.

When Gaelic football was codified though it was intentionally looking to take the best elements of soccer AND rugby to create its game. The hand pass was an important element of that earliest of games. So really those that say the hand pass isn't really football are just plainly ignorant of the history and roots of our game.

What you describe about hand passing all the way up the pitch is just overly negative hyperbole, it doesn't really happen. Top teams can and do vary their play to work their chances. Without hand passing the mass defense strategy would be even more effective than it already is.

Anyway look you're prone to overly negative hyperbole across a lot of your postings here, so much so that you're just not really worth paying attention to and I've already given you more of a response than you deserve."
If you have to go back to medievil times to try and justify your obsession with hand passing then I think it's clear your argument is flawed. My experience is that it is always those who aren't very good at football who love the hand passing as much as you clearly do."]Yeah history wouldn't be your thing I suppose. You seem somewhat imbecilic.

catch22 (USA) - Posts: 2148 - 22/05/2021 17:34:50    2344213

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