National Forum

"Level The Playing Field."

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Replying To supersub15:  "No one has convinced me that my suggestion is ridiculous or unworkable, no one."
There is no handicap system in any top level of any team sport in the world. Not sure there is in any major individual sport at the top level either. Certainly not in tennis, golf, motor racing, shooting, etc. If anything the seeding system used in some of these sports only ensures the best compete in the latter stages of competitions. I'm sure if it was as workable as you seem to think it would be employed everywhere. Top level in any sport is supposed to be just that. Top level.

Viking66 (Wexford) - Posts: 3324 - 11/05/2021 13:31:49    2341105

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Replying To supersub15:  "No one has convinced me that my suggestion is ridiculous or unworkable, no one."
That's more of a reflection on you and your stubbornness.

Anyway if it's not a ridiculous idea you should put it to your club as something they can propose at county board level.

Every club in every county can propose items for congress.

Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 3626 - 11/05/2021 13:36:14    2341106

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Replying To Viking66:  "There is no handicap system in any top level of any team sport in the world. Not sure there is in any major individual sport at the top level either. Certainly not in tennis, golf, motor racing, shooting, etc. If anything the seeding system used in some of these sports only ensures the best compete in the latter stages of competitions. I'm sure if it was as workable as you seem to think it would be employed everywhere. Top level in any sport is supposed to be just that. Top level."
You only have to look at north American sports to see salary caps and the draft system as handicaps to the richer clubs.

the_creeler (Leitrim) - Posts: 119 - 11/05/2021 14:33:01    2341117

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Replying To the_creeler:  "You only have to look at north American sports to see salary caps and the draft system as handicaps to the richer clubs."
I mentioned on this site before that the distributions to counties should from central funding should be means tested.

Distributions based on performance by county teams should be done away with. Expenses will be higher for successful counties and that's fine but there are other distribution categories in desperate need of being reevaluated.

https://res.cloudinary.com/dvrbaruzq/image/upload/fl_attachment/zqzwyx0xnugvpw4zirtp.pdf

Page 196 of the above you can see basic distributions and competition distributions totalling nearly 11m and over 20% of total distributions that could be looked at being allocated differently.

Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 3626 - 11/05/2021 14:48:06    2341121

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Replying To Whammo86:  "I mentioned on this site before that the distributions to counties should from central funding should be means tested.

Distributions based on performance by county teams should be done away with. Expenses will be higher for successful counties and that's fine but there are other distribution categories in desperate need of being reevaluated.

https://res.cloudinary.com/dvrbaruzq/image/upload/fl_attachment/zqzwyx0xnugvpw4zirtp.pdf

Page 196 of the above you can see basic distributions and competition distributions totalling nearly 11m and over 20% of total distributions that could be looked at being allocated differently."
Counties would just hide incomes- that would not work in any way shape of form. Counties would be then involved in fictional income and expenditure and we are bad enough as it is with payments in the GAA without starting down that road also.

That proposal is fanciful pie in the sky stuff and sounds great in theory but in reality would not work at all.

A good accountant would ensure that your county would clean up!!!! We need it to be fair and transparent not unfair and translucent or even opaque!

the creeler (Cavan) - Posts: 512 - 11/05/2021 15:08:11    2341125

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Replying To the_creeler:  "You only have to look at north American sports to see salary caps and the draft system as handicaps to the richer clubs."
The GAA has the ultimate salary cap for players in place since it was founded. Draft system works in a closed shop club environment it's not going to work in a system where you play and indeed want to play for the county you are from.

Viking66 (Wexford) - Posts: 3324 - 11/05/2021 15:43:48    2341132

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Replying To tonguey:  "Counties would just hide incomes- that would not work in any way shape of form. Counties would be then involved in fictional income and expenditure and we are bad enough as it is with payments in the GAA without starting down that road also.

That proposal is fanciful pie in the sky stuff and sounds great in theory but in reality would not work at all.

A good accountant would ensure that your county would clean up!!!! We need it to be fair and transparent not unfair and translucent or even opaque!"
I get where you're coming from, except that what you're describing is financial fraud.

The GAA should be overseeing county board finances anyway.

There's a lot of innuendo around under the table payments at various levels of the game. If this is the case the GAA has a responsibility to improve its corporate governance.

I'd say financial fraud is such a serious matter that the penalties for any county board guilty of such should be expulsion of their representative teams from intercounty competition for a year or longer.

I don't see why functional accounting is a pie in the sky idea and if it is then the association is in a very bad place.

Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 3626 - 11/05/2021 15:45:26    2341133

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Replying To Viking66:  "The GAA has the ultimate salary cap for players in place since it was founded. Draft system works in a closed shop club environment it's not going to work in a system where you play and indeed want to play for the county you are from."
How about direct funding from the GAA is done on some kind of draft system, poorest county gets the most funding and all ireland champs get the least the following year? That's not a cheap shot at the Dubs or anybody, just an idea?

Bon (Kildare) - Posts: 1391 - 11/05/2021 19:19:23    2341153

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Distribution of GAA wealth - the 'tricky' Dublin issue

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Cockney_Cat (UK) - Posts: 1500 - 11/05/2021 20:04:05    2341164

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Replying To Cockney_Cat:  "There is no handicap system in all of golfs major championships and tours."
Is 'extra weight' in horse racing a better example ?

omahant (USA) - Posts: 2151 - 11/05/2021 20:52:58    2341171

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Replying To Whammo86:  "A handicap system is ridiculous.

As someone from a regular division 4 county, I'd hate us to be treated differently or given preferential treatment, like handicaps or a second chance that others don't get.

We need to be given a better chance at real development, not some short term contrived solution that doesn't actually fix anything."
Is your financial redistribution idea, from rich to poor, a form of handicapping ?

omahant (USA) - Posts: 2151 - 11/05/2021 20:59:56    2341173

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Replying To supersub15:  "It has never been tried and tested so it's only ridiculous if you want it to be ridiculous, I am also a regular from div.4, and no we wouldn't be treated differently or given preferential treatment, the proposed changes would be made to compensate or realign the weaker counties with those who we can't compete with.

The back door was introduced in lieu of real development, short term fix to a long term problem, last year it was straight knock out, as Kerry folk will tell you they didn't get a second bite at the cherry I wonder what would have happened if they did, Tipp and Cavan are not complaining because there was no second chance. For the past 20 years Kerry, Dublin, Donegal, Galway, Tyrone, etc, etc, etc, got preferential treatment with the usage of the back door, we had no option but to sit back and look on.

A handicap system based on our golf handicap system cannot be seen as being ridiculous simply because it has never been put to the test.

A real long term chance has for years been given for real development but nothing has or will change.

Short term fix's will be with us for another 20 ish years it seems."
I had a GAA League Championship 'schedule handicap' idea, similar to the recently approved (unhandicapped) 36-team UEFA Champions League (UCL) reform for 2024-33.

UCL teams are divided into 4 seeded pots of 9.
All teams play 10 mixed quality games.
Pot 1 teams play 2 teams from Pot 1 (own pot), 3 from Pot 2, 3 from Pot 3 and 2 from Pot 4 (call it, 2-3-3-2).
Pot 4 teams also play 2-3-3-2; while Pot 2 and 3 teams play 3-2-2-3 instead.
I consider this balanced as all teams play 10 different opponents once with a 'Pot Total of 25'.

I'd adopt this for the GAA - except there are 4 pots (divs) of 8 and I would 'handicap' by replacing the Pot 1v4 mismatch pairings - those 16 teams play two more matches (4 in all) against their own pot/div (Pot 1v1 or 4v4).

Top 16 (or 20, or 12) of 32 in a combined 32-team table to the AI KO (KO seeding based on table placings).

omahant (USA) - Posts: 2151 - 11/05/2021 21:26:44    2341177

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Replying To Viking66:  "There is no handicap system in any top level of any team sport in the world. Not sure there is in any major individual sport at the top level either. Certainly not in tennis, golf, motor racing, shooting, etc. If anything the seeding system used in some of these sports only ensures the best compete in the latter stages of competitions. I'm sure if it was as workable as you seem to think it would be employed everywhere. Top level in any sport is supposed to be just that. Top level."
I realise I may not be the sharpest knife in the drawer compared to some of you lot, one or two in particular, so can I ask, does it really matter if, "There is no handicap system in any top level of any team sport in the world. Not sure there is in any major individual sport at the top level either. Certainly not in tennis, golf, motor racing, shooting, etc". is it at all applicable does it matter, can we not devise a system that's fair and equitable to all counties, why should it matter to us what system is applicable to other sports, "other sports whether they are national or international are not part of the equation simply because there is no equation", the gaa is a standalone entity albeit amateur, is it not true to say the gaa set their own playing rules to suit their own games.
The nfl have at their disposal a thing called score diff. that is available should it be needed to decide what team gets promoted and what team doesn't should the top 3 teams finish on the same points, that in its self is indirectly a handicap.

Your golf handicap will be decided and validated to verify your handicap once a year, your handicap will depend on how successful or unsuccessful you were throughout the year. It's not rocket science.

How can anyone say a handicap system is ridiculous if it hasn't been tried tested and validated.

Even if a handicap system went through the appropriate procedure, and eventually got the thumbs up, it would take a long, long, time before it came into play. So for now everyone can relax.

supersub15 (Carlow) - Posts: 2469 - 11/05/2021 21:42:50    2341178

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Replying To omahant:  "Is your financial redistribution idea, from rich to poor, a form of handicapping ?"
What, no.

He specifically mentioned handicapping in a similar manner to how golf operates where competitors are given a head start on the score board at others expense.

What I'm talking about is nothing like that other than being a mechanism for a more level playing field.

Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 3626 - 11/05/2021 21:55:18    2341179

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Replying To Viking66:  "There is no handicap system in any top level of any team sport in the world. Not sure there is in any major individual sport at the top level either. Certainly not in tennis, golf, motor racing, shooting, etc. If anything the seeding system used in some of these sports only ensures the best compete in the latter stages of competitions. I'm sure if it was as workable as you seem to think it would be employed everywhere. Top level in any sport is supposed to be just that. Top level."
Horse Racing - carrying different weight ?

omahant (USA) - Posts: 2151 - 12/05/2021 00:46:05    2341197

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Replying To Whammo86:  "What, no.

He specifically mentioned handicapping in a similar manner to how golf operates where competitors are given a head start on the score board at others expense.

What I'm talking about is nothing like that other than being a mechanism for a more level playing field."
To my mind, anything that artificially creates a more 'level playing field', or an 'overt/deliberate slanted-not-so-level one' - is a form of handicapping.

Examples, include -

a) Seeding = unfair advantage granted now based on historical success.

b) Funds redistribution (1 = may handicap the fund raiser = MLB luxury tax, or if Dubs money moves around later; 2 = may handicap less successful teams = EPL Big Six makes more money keeping others down and further behind).

c) Tougher competition schedule assumed by some teams (1 = US NFL, only div winners play all other Conf div winners; 2 = Ulster teams have an unfair stronger AI SFC path in AI relative to others; 3 = me, in avoiding 1v4 games, this gives div 1 a tougher schedule, div 4 easier).

d) Player drafts in US sports - worst performing teams get to pick/draft college players first to partially bridge gap with successful teams).

Etc.....

omahant (USA) - Posts: 2151 - 12/05/2021 01:36:34    2341198

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Replying To omahant:  "Is 'extra weight' in horse racing a better example ?"
Horse racing is an example, But, in the most prestigious races, horses are generally allocated the same weight to carry for fairness, with allowances given to younger horses and female horses running against males; The Derby, Cheltenham Gold Cup, Kentucky Derby, Dubai World Cup, etc.

GAA players are not animals, well most of them aren't. So let's stick to people.

Cockney_Cat (UK) - Posts: 1500 - 12/05/2021 08:43:43    2341204

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Replying To omahant:  "To my mind, anything that artificially creates a more 'level playing field', or an 'overt/deliberate slanted-not-so-level one' - is a form of handicapping.

Examples, include -

a) Seeding = unfair advantage granted now based on historical success.

b) Funds redistribution (1 = may handicap the fund raiser = MLB luxury tax, or if Dubs money moves around later; 2 = may handicap less successful teams = EPL Big Six makes more money keeping others down and further behind).

c) Tougher competition schedule assumed by some teams (1 = US NFL, only div winners play all other Conf div winners; 2 = Ulster teams have an unfair stronger AI SFC path in AI relative to others; 3 = me, in avoiding 1v4 games, this gives div 1 a tougher schedule, div 4 easier).

d) Player drafts in US sports - worst performing teams get to pick/draft college players first to partially bridge gap with successful teams).

Etc....."
Yeah I guess that's a question of semantics.

To clarify I think that there should be attempts at improving competitive balance.

I'm very strongly against things that can do so at the expense of competitive integrity, mainly rewarding competitors for poor performance.

It happens in US sports around draft picks and I think it goes against the essence of competition.

Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 3626 - 12/05/2021 11:50:51    2341242

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Replying To Whammo86:  "Yeah I guess that's a question of semantics.

To clarify I think that there should be attempts at improving competitive balance.

I'm very strongly against things that can do so at the expense of competitive integrity, mainly rewarding competitors for poor performance.

It happens in US sports around draft picks and I think it goes against the essence of competition."
I'm not much of a follower of American football, but I think the draft picks is one of it's pluses. Without it, the richer teams/franchises would buy up the best players, and a handful of teams would dominate the competition, like the Premier League in England.

Cockney_Cat (UK) - Posts: 1500 - 12/05/2021 12:21:21    2341249

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Replying To Cockney_Cat:  "I'm not much of a follower of American football, but I think the draft picks is one of it's pluses. Without it, the richer teams/franchises would buy up the best players, and a handful of teams would dominate the competition, like the Premier League in England."
As a NFL follower, I can say that the NFL has a set of rules to ensure that there is competition across the league. As has been pointed in your post, the teams are ranked based upon their previous campaign's performance and the draft is tailored to allow the worse teams from the previous campaign to pick the best players which means that the strongest team i.e. the team that wins the Super Bowl getting the last pick in the draft. This makes the weaker teams stronger and allows them to push up the rankings and become more competitive Also, there is a salary cap which only allows teams to spend a certain percentage of their budget on salaries which stops a rich franchise commandeering all the best players. A salary cap should be introduced in the premier league in the UK to make it more of a level playing field and stop this happening. I advocated all the gaelic football teams in Ireland being ranked from 1 to 31 (or 33) based upon their previous year's league and championship performance and suggested that the GAA should allocate funds to the weaker teams, with the stronger team, the all ireland winners getting the least funding. This would allow the weaker teams an advantage in terms of the funds but it may not work as the bigger teams still have access to a range of different sponsors so in order to really make it a level playing field, all sponsorship and funding would need to be centrally controlled and that is not going to happen as the GAA are intent (it appears) on making gaelic football elite in the same way hurling is, i.e. with a select number of teams competing for the big prizes year after year and the rest left to lower competitions with no way of ever catching up with the top counties. The GAA world is not a meritocracy, it never has and never will be unless there is a major overhaul in administration.

wicklowsupport (Wicklow) - Posts: 1433 - 12/05/2021 13:24:12    2341260

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