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Penalise Hurling's Sliotar Throw !

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Replying To catch22:  "How in the name of God could you pass the ball of the back of the hand ?
No 3. Closed fist ? Sure that's never going to be accurate.
4. The palm drawn back more than a foot ? Jaysus will you stop. What hope has a ref got of being able to see this all the time when he could be 50 yards away ?
It's hardly worth changing a rule if that's what the alternatives are."
I remember watching Clare and KIlkenny in a league game in Cusack park in the 90s.I think it may have been a double header with Corofin and Laune Rangers so maybe 1998? .Anyway Dj hit a pass fully 30 yards with what I'd swear was a closed fist that resulted in a Kilkenny score, and deadly accurate it was too.I remember leaning against the fence and wondering were my eyes deceiving me ( they may have been!). As regards the current handpass players are definitely throwing the ball and mostly its down to laziness and being let away with it .Anyone who has played hurling will tell you that a properly executed hand pass with a clear striking action is every bit as quick as a thrown ball so there is no need to be doing it. If referees clamped down on even a few of the marginal ones it would soon force lads to change for fear of being caught

UtahBlaine (Galway) - Posts: 63 - 11/01/2021 19:46:35    2327034

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Maybe you should ask yourself why are players doing this and the reason is the opposition player putting his free hand in across the chest and arm of the player hand passing. Now I don't think it is a foul but it's a way of disrupting an accurate pass so the higher the ball is thrown up and the longer the striking motion the more hand passes are going to be disrupted and balls will just fall to the ground creating more rucks. I find that if a referee pulls a few lads for it in the first 10 minutes the 2 teams soon cop on and we go to legal hand passes very fast. Banning all hand passing would be a disaster however as this will just see lads getting bottled up and giving away a free for over carrying- the hand pass is way out of this as you need less room to throw up a ball and hand pass it. Maybe if refs just police it at the start of a match and then ignore it afterwards the amount of illegal ones will decrease and the game will still flow

updwell (Limerick) - Posts: 420 - 11/01/2021 20:42:10    2327038

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Replying To UtahBlaine:  "I remember watching Clare and KIlkenny in a league game in Cusack park in the 90s.I think it may have been a double header with Corofin and Laune Rangers so maybe 1998? .Anyway Dj hit a pass fully 30 yards with what I'd swear was a closed fist that resulted in a Kilkenny score, and deadly accurate it was too.I remember leaning against the fence and wondering were my eyes deceiving me ( they may have been!). As regards the current handpass players are definitely throwing the ball and mostly its down to laziness and being let away with it .Anyone who has played hurling will tell you that a properly executed hand pass with a clear striking action is every bit as quick as a thrown ball so there is no need to be doing it. If referees clamped down on even a few of the marginal ones it would soon force lads to change for fear of being caught"
You're eyes may not have deceived you but DJ played a lot of handball and I'd say that striking with the fist was very familiar to him.
Not a lot of lads would be that proficient at it and it'd take a lot of practice for it to be anyway accurate.
It's impossible for a ref to be able to tell if a player if slapping or throwing a ball a lot of the time.

catch22 (USA) - Posts: 1789 - 11/01/2021 21:15:26    2327043

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Replying To Suas Sios:  "I must have heard that from Donal Óg as Midlands says.

Yea, I recognise that a foul is a foul. To make the clear striking action mandatory is the most straightforward way to correct this issue. If it's not clear, it's a free.

Being the ref is not easy and I would never be up to it myself but if I did I would consider popping into the changing rooms before the game and telling/warning the players what I look out for.

E.G. Ok lads I will blow the whistle for a throw pass/ zero tolerance for talking back/ off the ball stuff... etc"
It would be a great idea if refs did warn players before games and then maybe we d see less of the throws.

CiarraiMick (Dublin) - Posts: 1148 - 11/01/2021 21:24:57    2327047

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Replying To Oldtourman:  "Yes indeed. The other day, I looked back at the 1996 Clare/Limerick game in 1996, which was widely regarded as a great game at the time, and the standard looks very poor indeed, with simple points missed from very easy positions on both sides, hopeless deliveries into forwards and no movement from forwards into good receiving positions, among other glaring weaknesses, in comparison to how the game is played today."
No it was never a great game. Even back then it entered the history books because of the closeness and the crowd and tbe finish. But I remember being g with my father and uncle and them saying the standard was poor. In fact Clare were in control for long stretches but didn't put Limerick away. Great last 8 mins

bloodyban (Limerick) - Posts: 1361 - 11/01/2021 22:51:29    2327057

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Replying To omahant:  "How best could the frequency of the 'sliotar throw' be significantly reduced ?

Here are a few of my remedies (in my order of preference) that I think could work -

1) Slap the ball with the back of the hand instead of the palm.
2) Retain the palmed pass but only off the hurl.
3) Closed fist pass in lieu of the palm.
4) Clear striking motion, with the palm drawn back at least 30 cms, before the follow through."
The back of the hand! Nay impossible.

arock (Dublin) - Posts: 4515 - 11/01/2021 23:53:23    2327063

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Great thread and a topic that needs discussion.
Some of the great handpasses of the past like Dj careys were from the hurl to the hand or the switched hands. They are a joy to watch. However the problem is not with this type of handpass but with the throw type where the ball is thrown up and passed with the same hand. Asking refs to judge distance between the ball and the hand is futile. It wont work. Better getting rid of the one handed pass altogether. TBF the skill required is not much more than a throw anyway. There is too much handpassing now and it time to take action before it looks like another game ruined already by handpassing.

ZUL10 (Clare) - Posts: 612 - 12/01/2021 14:45:05    2327128

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Replying To bloodyban:  "No it was never a great game. Even back then it entered the history books because of the closeness and the crowd and tbe finish. But I remember being g with my father and uncle and them saying the standard was poor. In fact Clare were in control for long stretches but didn't put Limerick away. Great last 8 mins"
Great crowd, great score to win, great atmosphere and some tough Hurling. But even on the day I would have thought the standard was only ok. Still I would rather a game with lots of errors thanone where both teams 'throw' slick passes all over the field.

ZUL10 (Clare) - Posts: 612 - 12/01/2021 14:51:20    2327130

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Replying To Oldtourman:  "Really-How do you make out that the games were better back in the day. I have looked at games from the early/mid nineties on youtube recently and the standard of hurling looked vastly inferior to what is on offer over the past years. First touch, combination, striking under pressure and the amount of classy scores got from play all seemed of a much lower standard than what is prevailing today."
yest maybe in your oppinion, but you were hanging on for scores too and it was hussle and bussle in the lead up, go to put the kettle on for a cuppa now during game and return and the score will have gone up by 4 or 5 points, and these are not scores worked up the field line by line, they are quick/short puck out solo 30 yards and hit the ping ball over the bar the other end..grand on a computer game but shocking boring after awhile in GAA..in your favour I will say Limerick are a breath of fresh air to hurling (I hope they abandon the massive points scoring though when things return to normal) excellent hurlers in each line of the field, ball winners and great passers, hardy and strong, and generally work lovely scores...its one thing players being leaner, fitter and lighter ball and hurls nowadays, but that, to me, has not added to the game, games are more predictable (in the main) when they get a big lead now they win by a cricket score and the game is non competitive, most games in the 70's and 80's were competitive (regardless of standard) and if a team had a big lead at half time 9/10 you were treated to a a classic comeback (always not sucessful I know) but it was a game..now it peters out into a 1-30 to 0-25 win and for me anyway, Ime elsewhere in my mind the time the full time whistle blows...

Fairplayalways (Offaly) - Posts: 446 - 12/01/2021 15:20:21    2327136

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Replying To updwell:  "Maybe you should ask yourself why are players doing this and the reason is the opposition player putting his free hand in across the chest and arm of the player hand passing. Now I don't think it is a foul but it's a way of disrupting an accurate pass so the higher the ball is thrown up and the longer the striking motion the more hand passes are going to be disrupted and balls will just fall to the ground creating more rucks. I find that if a referee pulls a few lads for it in the first 10 minutes the 2 teams soon cop on and we go to legal hand passes very fast. Banning all hand passing would be a disaster however as this will just see lads getting bottled up and giving away a free for over carrying- the hand pass is way out of this as you need less room to throw up a ball and hand pass it. Maybe if refs just police it at the start of a match and then ignore it afterwards the amount of illegal ones will decrease and the game will still flow"
"I find that if a referee pulls a few lads for it in the first 10 minutes the 2 teams soon cop on and WE GO TO LEGAL HAND PASSES very fast".

The CAPITAL letters above represent the answer to the issue I've raised on this thread.
How do we get there ?

omahant (USA) - Posts: 1887 - 12/01/2021 19:42:38    2327165

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Replying To updwell:  "Maybe you should ask yourself why are players doing this and the reason is the opposition player putting his free hand in across the chest and arm of the player hand passing. Now I don't think it is a foul but it's a way of disrupting an accurate pass so the higher the ball is thrown up and the longer the striking motion the more hand passes are going to be disrupted and balls will just fall to the ground creating more rucks. I find that if a referee pulls a few lads for it in the first 10 minutes the 2 teams soon cop on and we go to legal hand passes very fast. Banning all hand passing would be a disaster however as this will just see lads getting bottled up and giving away a free for over carrying- the hand pass is way out of this as you need less room to throw up a ball and hand pass it. Maybe if refs just police it at the start of a match and then ignore it afterwards the amount of illegal ones will decrease and the game will still flow"
Good post. Not sure who here is still playing the game but as someone still playing up north in a lesser county we simply do not get away with an illegal handpass. Gets blown every time. My opinion is that referrees at the top of game let the throw go to keep the speed of the game up and as this poster alluded to it is the only realistic way of getting a ball out of the tackle, inevitably there should be an overlap to your favour of you get bottled up by 2-3 defenders on the other side. Another reason for an increase number of passes being thrown is the intensity of the tackle, arms getting tugged thumped etc, 2-3 players hitting you in the tackle now trying to perform a legal handpass would probably result in more turn overs. That extra split second of showing clear space between ball and strike allows these top players the chance to come in and disrupt the ball and create turnovers.

Good topic, annoys me seeing the ball thrown at times however I usually willing to look past it if a player comes booming off a shoulder to take the ball at pace.

Cu_culainn (Armagh) - Posts: 4 - 13/01/2021 10:26:48    2327210

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Replying To Cu_culainn:  "Good post. Not sure who here is still playing the game but as someone still playing up north in a lesser county we simply do not get away with an illegal handpass. Gets blown every time. My opinion is that referrees at the top of game let the throw go to keep the speed of the game up and as this poster alluded to it is the only realistic way of getting a ball out of the tackle, inevitably there should be an overlap to your favour of you get bottled up by 2-3 defenders on the other side. Another reason for an increase number of passes being thrown is the intensity of the tackle, arms getting tugged thumped etc, 2-3 players hitting you in the tackle now trying to perform a legal handpass would probably result in more turn overs. That extra split second of showing clear space between ball and strike allows these top players the chance to come in and disrupt the ball and create turnovers.

Good topic, annoys me seeing the ball thrown at times however I usually willing to look past it if a player comes booming off a shoulder to take the ball at pace."
The increased number of handpasses and the increase number of spare hand fouls like pulling and dragging players are all part of the same problem. Back in the old days you got an opportunity to block or hook a player in possession of the ball. Most players tacked with both hands on the hurl. Now, the default is one hand outstretched to try and stop the players impending handpass so we get loads of handpasses, loads of simple silly frees, and lots of easy scores. Its all become a handpass and hand blocking frenzy in the middle of the field.

ZUL10 (Clare) - Posts: 612 - 13/01/2021 18:21:56    2327279

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Replying To Fairplayalways:  "yest maybe in your oppinion, but you were hanging on for scores too and it was hussle and bussle in the lead up, go to put the kettle on for a cuppa now during game and return and the score will have gone up by 4 or 5 points, and these are not scores worked up the field line by line, they are quick/short puck out solo 30 yards and hit the ping ball over the bar the other end..grand on a computer game but shocking boring after awhile in GAA..in your favour I will say Limerick are a breath of fresh air to hurling (I hope they abandon the massive points scoring though when things return to normal) excellent hurlers in each line of the field, ball winners and great passers, hardy and strong, and generally work lovely scores...its one thing players being leaner, fitter and lighter ball and hurls nowadays, but that, to me, has not added to the game, games are more predictable (in the main) when they get a big lead now they win by a cricket score and the game is non competitive, most games in the 70's and 80's were competitive (regardless of standard) and if a team had a big lead at half time 9/10 you were treated to a a classic comeback (always not sucessful I know) but it was a game..now it peters out into a 1-30 to 0-25 win and for me anyway, Ime elsewhere in my mind the time the full time whistle blows..."
]eplying To Oldtourman: "Really-How do you make out that the games were better back in the day. I have looked at games from the early/mid nineties on youtube recently and the standard of hurling looked vastly inferior to what is on offer over the past years. First touch, combination, striking under pressure and the amount of classy scores got from play all seemed of a much lower standard than what is prevailing today."

It is hard to make an argument against what you say but I'll try. I was at many great matches back in the seventies, eighties and nineties and remember coming out from them drained and elated/devastated at what I witnessed. When TG4 started showing these matches a few years ago I eagerly looked forward to them but after watching them was left severely disappointed. The problem is we are looking at them from a 2021 perspective, and cameras dont capture atmosphere or excitement. Nowadays surfaces are better, camera work is better, players are fitter and all individuallity coached out of them, so we have a pretty good idea what to expect at any match.ie posession hurling, lots of rucks, retain possession at all costs, handpass/throw the ball around till you set up your shooter, and thats before I get into the pulling and dragging with the free hand, and also that dreaded word turnovers.

I know i'm going totally against the grain here but I dont think that todays players are more skillful. They are faster, fitter, can hit the ball further ( albeit with a shorter hurl and a lighter more high quality ball). The ball travells faster and the one skill that they have over their predecessors is killing/controlling the ball with the first touch.
Against that theres no one able to pull on the ball on the ground (hurl too short). I think Seamus Callanan is the only forward in the country that would have scored that goal against Wexford in 2019 as all others would have to get the ball into their hand. The skill of doubling on the ball in the air is gone forever. (Ring is probably turning in his grave). There is a lot of catching the ball high in the air now, but I would not consider that a skill as it is easy to catch a sliotar when you know that there are no flailing hurls and no risk of injury. In the past the fielders were few and far between as there could be serious consequences. That is why I have always admired Tony Doran, Joe McKenna, Ray Cummins and a few others as it was always a case of no pain no gain with them.

To get back to the original point of the post, hurling is probably a better game now but it is not for me. I find it totally devoid of excitement. I watched the Galway Kilkenny under 21 game before Christmas and it was depressing. This was the grade that always gave us the best quality hurling. Everything in this life ages badly except music maybe. Look at all the old soccer matches and rugby matches and these that we thought were great at the time also look desperate to the modern eye.
I'm not one that thinks that everything was great in my day and sh*te since and I accept that every game has to evolve but I think hurling peaked about 10 years ago ( I consider the 2009 All ireland as probably the best game I've seen). I think of the memorable games that I was lucky enough to have seen and even though they have not aged well, I still think they were great.

seventyniner (Galway) - Posts: 4 - 13/01/2021 21:11:01    2327304

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Replying To seventyniner:  "
eplying To Oldtourman: "Really-How do you make out that the games were better back in the day. I have looked at games from the early/mid nineties on youtube recently and the standard of hurling looked vastly inferior to what is on offer over the past years. First touch, combination, striking under pressure and the amount of classy scores got from play all seemed of a much lower standard than what is prevailing today."

It is hard to make an argument against what you say but I'll try. I was at many great matches back in the seventies, eighties and nineties and remember coming out from them drained and elated/devastated at what I witnessed. When TG4 started showing these matches a few years ago I eagerly looked forward to them but after watching them was left severely disappointed. The problem is we are looking at them from a 2021 perspective, and cameras dont capture atmosphere or excitement. Nowadays surfaces are better, camera work is better, players are fitter and all individuallity coached out of them, so we have a pretty good idea what to expect at any match.ie posession hurling, lots of rucks, retain possession at all costs, handpass/throw the ball around till you set up your shooter, and thats before I get into the pulling and dragging with the free hand, and also that dreaded word turnovers.

I know i'm going totally against the grain here but I dont think that todays players are more skillful. They are faster, fitter, can hit the ball further ( albeit with a shorter hurl and a lighter more high quality ball). The ball travells faster and the one skill that they have over their predecessors is killing/controlling the ball with the first touch.
Against that theres no one able to pull on the ball on the ground (hurl too short). I think Seamus Callanan is the only forward in the country that would have scored that goal against Wexford in 2019 as all others would have to get the ball into their hand. The skill of doubling on the ball in the air is gone forever. (Ring is probably turning in his grave). There is a lot of catching the ball high in the air now, but I would not consider that a skill as it is easy to catch a sliotar when you know that there are no flailing hurls and no risk of injury. In the past the fielders were few and far between as there could be serious consequences. That is why I have always admired Tony Doran, Joe McKenna, Ray Cummins and a few others as it was always a case of no pain no gain with them.

To get back to the original point of the post, hurling is probably a better game now but it is not for me. I find it totally devoid of excitement. I watched the Galway Kilkenny under 21 game before Christmas and it was depressing. This was the grade that always gave us the best quality hurling. Everything in this life ages badly except music maybe. Look at all the old soccer matches and rugby matches and these that we thought were great at the time also look desperate to the modern eye.
I'm not one that thinks that everything was great in my day and sh*te since and I accept that every game has to evolve but I think hurling peaked about 10 years ago ( I consider the 2009 All ireland as probably the best game I've seen). I think of the memorable games that I was lucky enough to have seen and even though they have not aged well, I still think they were great."]Well said Seventyniner. Yes no doubt the game is more skilful today and the scoring is much higher but I also agree its not as entertaining. The great man to man battles are gone. The doubling on the ball is gone and points are scored so easily that teams don't seem to be going for goals as much. It's a posesson game now and like basketball as someone said. I'm not looking back with Rose tinted glasses either. It just becoming too robotic for me.

CiarraiMick (Dublin) - Posts: 1148 - 13/01/2021 21:31:27    2327310

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Brilliant post seventyniner. I think you've made some very good points. To my mind the best skills in the game do not involve handling the ball, which is the obsession nowadays. Crisp ground striking and overhead doubling on the ball are almost gone from our game, and more's the pity. The memorable goals scored by John Fenton, Jimmy Barry Murphy, Nicky English and others wouldn't be seen nowadays. Besides, every single game now involves numerous rucks, almost always starting with the throw-in, where we usually see at least eight players tussling for the ball, all of them trying to get it into their hand. If they applied the same rule as football (all players other than the four midfielders must be inside the 45) it would surely help to avoid these rucks. Hurlers need only be inside the 65, which means they join the midfielders as soon as the ball is thrown in, leading to an unsightly beginning to most games.

midlands (Westmeath) - Posts: 238 - 13/01/2021 22:06:12    2327316

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Replying To seventyniner:  "
eplying To Oldtourman: "Really-How do you make out that the games were better back in the day. I have looked at games from the early/mid nineties on youtube recently and the standard of hurling looked vastly inferior to what is on offer over the past years. First touch, combination, striking under pressure and the amount of classy scores got from play all seemed of a much lower standard than what is prevailing today."

It is hard to make an argument against what you say but I'll try. I was at many great matches back in the seventies, eighties and nineties and remember coming out from them drained and elated/devastated at what I witnessed. When TG4 started showing these matches a few years ago I eagerly looked forward to them but after watching them was left severely disappointed. The problem is we are looking at them from a 2021 perspective, and cameras dont capture atmosphere or excitement. Nowadays surfaces are better, camera work is better, players are fitter and all individuallity coached out of them, so we have a pretty good idea what to expect at any match.ie posession hurling, lots of rucks, retain possession at all costs, handpass/throw the ball around till you set up your shooter, and thats before I get into the pulling and dragging with the free hand, and also that dreaded word turnovers.

I know i'm going totally against the grain here but I dont think that todays players are more skillful. They are faster, fitter, can hit the ball further ( albeit with a shorter hurl and a lighter more high quality ball). The ball travells faster and the one skill that they have over their predecessors is killing/controlling the ball with the first touch.
Against that theres no one able to pull on the ball on the ground (hurl too short). I think Seamus Callanan is the only forward in the country that would have scored that goal against Wexford in 2019 as all others would have to get the ball into their hand. The skill of doubling on the ball in the air is gone forever. (Ring is probably turning in his grave). There is a lot of catching the ball high in the air now, but I would not consider that a skill as it is easy to catch a sliotar when you know that there are no flailing hurls and no risk of injury. In the past the fielders were few and far between as there could be serious consequences. That is why I have always admired Tony Doran, Joe McKenna, Ray Cummins and a few others as it was always a case of no pain no gain with them.

To get back to the original point of the post, hurling is probably a better game now but it is not for me. I find it totally devoid of excitement. I watched the Galway Kilkenny under 21 game before Christmas and it was depressing. This was the grade that always gave us the best quality hurling. Everything in this life ages badly except music maybe. Look at all the old soccer matches and rugby matches and these that we thought were great at the time also look desperate to the modern eye.
I'm not one that thinks that everything was great in my day and sh*te since and I accept that every game has to evolve but I think hurling peaked about 10 years ago ( I consider the 2009 All ireland as probably the best game I've seen). I think of the memorable games that I was lucky enough to have seen and even though they have not aged well, I still think they were great."]Yes. I agree with a lot of that .I have been watching matches since the early sixties and yes I thought many of them were great games. As a rabid Limerick follower I remember fierce battles with Tipp in the seventies and Clare in the nineties and great KK/Wex clashes and classic Offaly and Galway teams and the exciting Waterford players of the early years of this Century. Somebody said the games are not as hard now. I suggest they ask Gerry McInerney and Araon Gillane after they were on the receiving end of hard tack;les in the last few years and indeed there are several cases of hard knocks been dished out by KK men, among others in recent years. As regards overhead hurling there was one delightful reprise of it displayed by Diarmuid Byrnes agaonst Galway, I think, but overall in the modern game it is not used as it gives the opposition a more than 50% of getting possession. It was alright in days when forwards were staying static, but nowadays backs like Hannon, Nash and Hayes and their correspondent backs in other teams, are trying to find players who are running into advantageous positions and showing great intelligence and fitness in doing so. The days of hoofing the ball time first time up the field and Timmy Ryan doubling overhead every time are gone forever.

Oldtourman (Limerick) - Posts: 2665 - 13/01/2021 22:58:12    2327328

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I don't like the way the game is played at all now, swarming, throwing the sliotar, tactical fouling. Much preferred the matches about ten years ago.
Hurling people in denial too about cynical play.

gahfan (Wexford) - Posts: 540 - 13/01/2021 23:30:09    2327337

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To Oldtourman (I didn't hit Reply as I wanted to avoid regenerating your post) -

I agree with much of what you said, we tend to see the games of yore through rose tinted glasses.

For me, the modern day scoring frequency lessens my enjoyment of the game. Don't get me wrong, I am in awe with the modern day players' skills and fitness, I just don't like the ball being popped over from all angles.

Back on topic, how would you improve policing of the handpass ?

Off topic, maybe it's time to cheapen point scoring by increasing the value of a goal to 5 pts ?

omahant (USA) - Posts: 1887 - 14/01/2021 00:48:08    2327341

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The problem with today's game is there is very little hurling done out the field. Today scores are from such long range. Goalie pucks it out which ever team wins the ball is taking a shot after 1 or 2 passes. There is a lot less actual play then before. I think the distance the ball goes for whatever reason is hurting the game. It is funny in hurling scores are coming too quickly from way out the field and in football they hold onto the ball until they have the perfect shot from as close as possible. As far as the hand pass if there isn't a definite striking motion it should be called a throw and a free given. Another issue is over carrying the ball.

gatha (Kilkenny) - Posts: 230 - 14/01/2021 14:08:38    2327393

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Replying To omahant:  "To Oldtourman (I didn't hit Reply as I wanted to avoid regenerating your post) -

I agree with much of what you said, we tend to see the games of yore through rose tinted glasses.

For me, the modern day scoring frequency lessens my enjoyment of the game. Don't get me wrong, I am in awe with the modern day players' skills and fitness, I just don't like the ball being popped over from all angles.

Back on topic, how would you improve policing of the handpass ?

Off topic, maybe it's time to cheapen point scoring by increasing the value of a goal to 5 pts ?"
I have a few problems with the five point for a goal suggestion. Firstly, will teams grow even more defensive if its brought in. Secondly, if a team gets say two early goals and each goal is worth three points it is possible to work your way back into a game point by point, whereas a nine point gap is much harder to follow. Thirdly, I would not agree with a penalty being worth five points as I believe there would be a lot more play acting for close in frees if this was in vogue. Incidentally anyone seen purposely trying to 'pull' frees should be yellow carded for 10 minutes.

Oldtourman (Limerick) - Posts: 2665 - 14/01/2021 14:31:00    2327400

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