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Replying To catch22: "Again , little or no real success when you sum up what you are talking titles for those managers. The two other managers I mentioned won titles elsewhere.
Being in a final in a five county province, and fair play to Tipp considering they have a massively hurling oriented base is not impossible.
Don't know the relevance of that or what explaining you need." 5 other counties to Kerry that should read.
catch22 (USA) - Posts: 2148 - 27/01/2021 21:58:10
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Replying To catch22: "Again , little or no real success when you sum up what you are talking titles for those managers. The two other managers I mentioned won titles elsewhere.
Being in a final in a five county province, and fair play to Tipp considering they have a massively hurling oriented base is not impossible.
Don't know the relevance of that or what explaining you need." There's six counties in Munster.....
oneoff (UK) - Posts: 1380 - 27/01/2021 22:02:16
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Replying To catch22: "Again , little or no real success when you sum up what you are talking titles for those managers. The two other managers I mentioned won titles elsewhere.
Being in a final in a five county province, and fair play to Tipp considering they have a massively hurling oriented base is not impossible.
Don't know the relevance of that or what explaining you need." What relevance does Kerry winning minor titles have to do with Cork winning a U20 title?
oneoff (UK) - Posts: 1380 - 27/01/2021 22:15:11
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Replying To oneoff: "What relevance does Kerry winning minor titles have to do with Cork winning a U20 title?" What relevance has any of this to the thread but you and you're like seem intent on sidetracking as many as possible.
My mention of minor titles was in relation to how it can impact on the development of football in other Munster counties and how some Kerry posters want you to believe the damage to football is all being done elsewhere.
catch22 (USA) - Posts: 2148 - 27/01/2021 23:10:22
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Replying To catch22: "5 other counties to Kerry that should read." Albeit Leinster has more counties than munster,, kerry would,, if they were to take Dublins place,, historically and to the present day have achieved a similar level of provincial success than they have done in munster.
They may be in a hurling province predominantly but Cork are 4th on the football roll of honour AFAIK and for most of the 2000s were the 3rd best team in Ireland behind kerry avd tyrone.
Galway9801 (Galway) - Posts: 1697 - 28/01/2021 01:05:33
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Replying To oneoff: "There's six counties in Munster....." I just looked up the Munster football U20/U21s roll of honor Kerry are top with 28 wins and Cork are 2nd with 27 titles, and Cork have contested 4 more finals than Kerry.
In the allireland U20 /U21s roll of honor Cork are top with 12 wins and 5 losses and Kerry are 2nd with 10 wins and 7 losses both have played in 17 finals Kerrys last final was 2008 and Corks 2020.
KingdomBoy1 (Kerry) - Posts: 14092 - 28/01/2021 09:56:41
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Replying To catch22: "What relevance has any of this to the thread but you and you're like seem intent on sidetracking as many as possible.
My mention of minor titles was in relation to how it can impact on the development of football in other Munster counties and how some Kerry posters want you to believe the damage to football is all being done elsewhere." In the decade of 2010 to 2019 three Munster counties won All Ireland minor titles and Cork and Tipp got to finals. So again what's your point?
It's you who's sidetracking by moving the goal posts whenever it suits you.
oneoff (UK) - Posts: 1380 - 28/01/2021 10:09:58
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Replying To oneoff: "In the decade of 2010 to 2019 three Munster counties won All Ireland minor titles and Cork and Tipp got to finals. So again what's your point?
It's you who's sidetracking by moving the goal posts whenever it suits you." Got to finals ? So what ? There has to be two teams in a final. The point is that all these young players in other counties see little or no chance of winning a Senior Munster title never mind an AI. They will generally drift away to hurling or other pursuits as they know senior is a different ball game.
What's the roll of honour at senior lever ? How does that compare ?
Did 2 teams make it to the final there as well ?
catch22 (USA) - Posts: 2148 - 28/01/2021 10:29:01
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Replying To Galway9801: "Albeit Leinster has more counties than munster,, kerry would,, if they were to take Dublins place,, historically and to the present day have achieved a similar level of provincial success than they have done in munster.
They may be in a hurling province predominantly but Cork are 4th on the football roll of honour AFAIK and for most of the 2000s were the 3rd best team in Ireland behind kerry avd tyrone." Sorry no chance historically and they would be up against Vs the Dubs at the moment.
Id have huge respect for Kerry teams and players of years gone by. But if i was speaking objectively i think the dogs in the street know that coming out of Munster over their history has been a huge contributing factor historically to their success. If Dublin were coming out of Munster historically i think its very fair to say we would be further in the roll of honor, as it is we have done magnificently well to attain 30 coming out of traditionally what has been the most competitive province. Munster is even less games.
You only have to look at the last few years and Leinster regression an easier provincial championship and i would wholly acknowledge it has been, has been an enabling factor for Dublin over 10 years compared to Ulster and Connacht and Kerry have had much longer. Lets be frank its going to be a huge shock if Dublin and Kerry aren't in a quarter final as provincial championships next year. None of us could call Ulster or Connacht with certainty.
As the championship has thickened with changes in structure Kerry have struggled to put increased competition away, Mayo, Galway, Tyrone, Dublin - Monghan and Donegal all going respectively as well. The more integration the more competitive it is - its why im in favor of the S8s. as it lessens Dublins and Kerrys provincial advantages.
I think we see that at underage as well, were the old championship structure still exists, its easier it think for Dublin and Munster Counties provincially, hence the success.
On the dominance issue and impact, if Dublin dominance has a dispiriting effect on Leinster counties and i thik its safe to say it does, then its only fair to say Kerry's has as well. Both championships need to be in the bin to be honest or tiered and restructured, they are advantages for Dublin and Kerry at this stage.
Not saying Kerry arent a great GAA county they truly are, so are Dublin, but at the moment both Leinster and Munster provincials are huge enabling factors and have been for Dublin for 10 years and for Kerry all their history, i think its quite mad to suggest any thig else and neither county need that advantage really.
TheUsername (Dublin) - Posts: 4445 - 28/01/2021 10:45:32
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Replying To catch22: "Got to finals ? So what ? There has to be two teams in a final. The point is that all these young players in other counties see little or no chance of winning a Senior Munster title never mind an AI. They will generally drift away to hurling or other pursuits as they know senior is a different ball game.
What's the roll of honour at senior lever ? How does that compare ?
Did 2 teams make it to the final there as well ?" Catch it was you that suggested that Kerry were in a hurling province. Whatever your view statistics would say that Munster is a more competitive province ithat Leinster at the moment.
CiarraiMick (Dublin) - Posts: 3673 - 28/01/2021 11:25:13
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Replying To catch22: "Got to finals ? So what ? There has to be two teams in a final. The point is that all these young players in other counties see little or no chance of winning a Senior Munster title never mind an AI. They will generally drift away to hurling or other pursuits as they know senior is a different ball game.
What's the roll of honour at senior lever ? How does that compare ?
Did 2 teams make it to the final there as well ?" So now it's about senior level with you? It was minor first then U20 and now senior. You'd want to make up your mind.
oneoff (UK) - Posts: 1380 - 28/01/2021 11:25:37
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Replying To TheUsername: "Sorry no chance historically and they would be up against Vs the Dubs at the moment.
Id have huge respect for Kerry teams and players of years gone by. But if i was speaking objectively i think the dogs in the street know that coming out of Munster over their history has been a huge contributing factor historically to their success. If Dublin were coming out of Munster historically i think its very fair to say we would be further in the roll of honor, as it is we have done magnificently well to attain 30 coming out of traditionally what has been the most competitive province. Munster is even less games.
You only have to look at the last few years and Leinster regression an easier provincial championship and i would wholly acknowledge it has been, has been an enabling factor for Dublin over 10 years compared to Ulster and Connacht and Kerry have had much longer. Lets be frank its going to be a huge shock if Dublin and Kerry aren't in a quarter final as provincial championships next year. None of us could call Ulster or Connacht with certainty.
As the championship has thickened with changes in structure Kerry have struggled to put increased competition away, Mayo, Galway, Tyrone, Dublin - Monghan and Donegal all going respectively as well. The more integration the more competitive it is - its why im in favor of the S8s. as it lessens Dublins and Kerrys provincial advantages.
I think we see that at underage as well, were the old championship structure still exists, its easier it think for Dublin and Munster Counties provincially, hence the success.
On the dominance issue and impact, if Dublin dominance has a dispiriting effect on Leinster counties and i thik its safe to say it does, then its only fair to say Kerry's has as well. Both championships need to be in the bin to be honest or tiered and restructured, they are advantages for Dublin and Kerry at this stage.
Not saying Kerry arent a great GAA county they truly are, so are Dublin, but at the moment both Leinster and Munster provincials are huge enabling factors and have been for Dublin for 10 years and for Kerry all their history, i think its quite mad to suggest any thig else and neither county need that advantage really." I would argue that when Kerry dominated football on the late 70s and 80s the 2nd best team in Ireland was Cork. The same cannot be said of any team in Leinster at the moment. Even in the noughties after Tyrone and Kerry Cork were definately 3 Rd best team in Ireland. I will agree however that Munster is lopsided but not as bad as Leinster. Ulster is exciting. Connaught is competitive and Munster struggling but Leinster is a complete washout.
CiarraiMick (Dublin) - Posts: 3673 - 28/01/2021 11:33:41
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Replying To TheUsername: "Sorry no chance historically and they would be up against Vs the Dubs at the moment.
Id have huge respect for Kerry teams and players of years gone by. But if i was speaking objectively i think the dogs in the street know that coming out of Munster over their history has been a huge contributing factor historically to their success. If Dublin were coming out of Munster historically i think its very fair to say we would be further in the roll of honor, as it is we have done magnificently well to attain 30 coming out of traditionally what has been the most competitive province. Munster is even less games.
You only have to look at the last few years and Leinster regression an easier provincial championship and i would wholly acknowledge it has been, has been an enabling factor for Dublin over 10 years compared to Ulster and Connacht and Kerry have had much longer. Lets be frank its going to be a huge shock if Dublin and Kerry aren't in a quarter final as provincial championships next year. None of us could call Ulster or Connacht with certainty.
As the championship has thickened with changes in structure Kerry have struggled to put increased competition away, Mayo, Galway, Tyrone, Dublin - Monghan and Donegal all going respectively as well. The more integration the more competitive it is - its why im in favor of the S8s. as it lessens Dublins and Kerrys provincial advantages.
I think we see that at underage as well, were the old championship structure still exists, its easier it think for Dublin and Munster Counties provincially, hence the success.
On the dominance issue and impact, if Dublin dominance has a dispiriting effect on Leinster counties and i thik its safe to say it does, then its only fair to say Kerry's has as well. Both championships need to be in the bin to be honest or tiered and restructured, they are advantages for Dublin and Kerry at this stage.
Not saying Kerry arent a great GAA county they truly are, so are Dublin, but at the moment both Leinster and Munster provincials are huge enabling factors and have been for Dublin for 10 years and for Kerry all their history, i think its quite mad to suggest any thig else and neither county need that advantage really." This argument about Dublin doing better in Munster is highly debatable. Their record again them from the nineteen twenties up to 2010 was very poor and there is every possibility that Dublin would have fared even worse against them in Munster as Cork almost certainly have. For example Dublin have never played Kerry in a championship final in Killarney whereas Kerry have almost always had to play Dublin in their own backyard. As a Limerick supporter I feel we would have won at least one provincial title if we in Leinster from 1990 to 2010.
Oldtourman (Limerick) - Posts: 4316 - 28/01/2021 11:43:51
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Replying To CiarraiMick: "I would argue that when Kerry dominated football on the late 70s and 80s the 2nd best team in Ireland was Cork. The same cannot be said of any team in Leinster at the moment. Even in the noughties after Tyrone and Kerry Cork were definately 3 Rd best team in Ireland. I will agree however that Munster is lopsided but not as bad as Leinster. Ulster is exciting. Connaught is competitive and Munster struggling but Leinster is a complete washout." But it was the Leinster counties that beat them the most Mick, which underlines my point, Offlay and Dublin.
I know were you are coming from on Cork im of a younger vintage and wasn't around in the 70s, but you would often hear Dubs who were around in the 80s say the same thing about Meath in the 70s, they were the second best team in Ireland and Dublin used to scrape by them. maybe its the local rivalry thing.
Im not saying Kerry haven't had great teams, players and wonderful well respected tradition, but Munstrer has been a huge enabling factor historically in their success just as Leinster in for Dublin presently, neither county need it. I do th8ink its fair for Counties in Leinster and Munster to raise the point about the impact of dominance in the provinces on the development of football in those counties. You see about us regularly on Leinster thread and the John C stuff, our dominance is new, Kerry historical. To be honest id bin both provinces or rather restructure them. Id amalgamate both Munster and Leinster and have two provincial championships, one with the Div 1& 2 teams and a separate on with the Div 2 & 3 teams. This i think would bring on many counties and provide the kind of competition Dublin and Kerry should crave, we dont need lo0ng grass we currently have in the provinces.
TheUsername (Dublin) - Posts: 4445 - 28/01/2021 12:07:54
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Replying To catch22: "Got to finals ? So what ? There has to be two teams in a final. The point is that all these young players in other counties see little or no chance of winning a Senior Munster title never mind an AI. They will generally drift away to hurling or other pursuits as they know senior is a different ball game.
What's the roll of honour at senior lever ? How does that compare ?
Did 2 teams make it to the final there as well ?" You're wasting your time here catch
Breffni40 (Cavan) - Posts: 12115 - 28/01/2021 12:15:36
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Is it not fair to say that in Munster, outside of Kerry, the majority of senior mens gaa players are hurlers first and foremost?
Breffni40 (Cavan) - Posts: 12115 - 28/01/2021 12:20:35
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Replying To oneoff: "So now it's about senior level with you? It was minor first then U20 and now senior. You'd want to make up your mind." Senior is where you see the fruits of where underage promise finally shows up.
You'd prefer to ignore the stats there though I'd imagine.
If Munster really was more than a one code province you wouldn't have such a one sided number of titles in one county.
catch22 (USA) - Posts: 2148 - 28/01/2021 12:25:27
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Replying To TheUsername: "Sorry no chance historically and they would be up against Vs the Dubs at the moment.
Id have huge respect for Kerry teams and players of years gone by. But if i was speaking objectively i think the dogs in the street know that coming out of Munster over their history has been a huge contributing factor historically to their success. If Dublin were coming out of Munster historically i think its very fair to say we would be further in the roll of honor, as it is we have done magnificently well to attain 30 coming out of traditionally what has been the most competitive province. Munster is even less games.
You only have to look at the last few years and Leinster regression an easier provincial championship and i would wholly acknowledge it has been, has been an enabling factor for Dublin over 10 years compared to Ulster and Connacht and Kerry have had much longer. Lets be frank its going to be a huge shock if Dublin and Kerry aren't in a quarter final as provincial championships next year. None of us could call Ulster or Connacht with certainty.
As the championship has thickened with changes in structure Kerry have struggled to put increased competition away, Mayo, Galway, Tyrone, Dublin - Monghan and Donegal all going respectively as well. The more integration the more competitive it is - its why im in favor of the S8s. as it lessens Dublins and Kerrys provincial advantages.
I think we see that at underage as well, were the old championship structure still exists, its easier it think for Dublin and Munster Counties provincially, hence the success.
On the dominance issue and impact, if Dublin dominance has a dispiriting effect on Leinster counties and i thik its safe to say it does, then its only fair to say Kerry's has as well. Both championships need to be in the bin to be honest or tiered and restructured, they are advantages for Dublin and Kerry at this stage.
Not saying Kerry arent a great GAA county they truly are, so are Dublin, but at the moment both Leinster and Munster provincials are huge enabling factors and have been for Dublin for 10 years and for Kerry all their history, i think its quite mad to suggest any thig else and neither county need that advantage really." You say the super 8s lessen Kerry and dublins provincial advantages but we didn't get 2 home games in the 8s.
Also we won 37 allirelands on the road away from home whereas dublin have won 30 allirelands at home in Croke Park.
KingdomBoy1 (Kerry) - Posts: 14092 - 28/01/2021 12:25:40
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Replying To catch22: "Senior is where you see the fruits of where underage promise finally shows up.
You'd prefer to ignore the stats there though I'd imagine.
If Munster really was more than a one code province you wouldn't have such a one sided number of titles in one county." You're the one who was bringing up minor success and now you're changing your story.
Dublin have almost 40 more Leinster titles than anyone else but that doesn't seem to worry you. Why's that? By your logic Leinster is only a hurling province as well is it not?
oneoff (UK) - Posts: 1380 - 28/01/2021 13:02:29
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Replying To TheUsername: "But it was the Leinster counties that beat them the most Mick, which underlines my point, Offlay and Dublin.
I know were you are coming from on Cork im of a younger vintage and wasn't around in the 70s, but you would often hear Dubs who were around in the 80s say the same thing about Meath in the 70s, they were the second best team in Ireland and Dublin used to scrape by them. maybe its the local rivalry thing.
Im not saying Kerry haven't had great teams, players and wonderful well respected tradition, but Munstrer has been a huge enabling factor historically in their success just as Leinster in for Dublin presently, neither county need it. I do th8ink its fair for Counties in Leinster and Munster to raise the point about the impact of dominance in the provinces on the development of football in those counties. You see about us regularly on Leinster thread and the John C stuff, our dominance is new, Kerry historical. To be honest id bin both provinces or rather restructure them. Id amalgamate both Munster and Leinster and have two provincial championships, one with the Div 1& 2 teams and a separate on with the Div 2 & 3 teams. This i think would bring on many counties and provide the kind of competition Dublin and Kerry should crave, we dont need lo0ng grass we currently have in the provinces." Well the great Kerry team that won 4 in a row and a 3 in a row after were only beaten by Offaly and Cork and were halted by Cork again in 87.Also their toughest games in that period were against Cork. However I do agree both Munster and Leinster are lopsided. Kerry were beaten by Dublin in 76 and 77 but after that Kerry started their great run. My naín point is that if Munster is being looked down upon as a hurling province then Leinster is worse.
CiarraiMick (Dublin) - Posts: 3673 - 28/01/2021 13:02:39
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