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Replying To BostonGuy: "Im very familiar with the fact as you say "this is Ireland", but if you think the influence of US sports has not affected soccer or GAA you need to take a read of Moneyball or look at Sport Science. Where did stats come from, for example ground covered analysis, total time in possession, GPS trackers and player recovery routines, so please enough of the this is Ireland not US stuff. Also If you think the GAA is NOT about entertainment, revenue generation, marketing, concerts, massive sponsorship, licensing deals and brand management then I think you have a very narrow view of what the GAA has become in recent years.
Blanket defense and keep ball is killing football, do you think the GAA is more interested in a drop in overall revenue across all its platforms due to spectator disinterest in order to keep "pride in the jersey"?
The GAA can also learn a thing or two more from US sports such as baseball or boxing for that matter if its not exciting or entertaining then fans will leave, other sports will get focus such as lacrosse and UFC for example and it is very hard to win them back." Can you try answering the questions I asked rather than tangenting into comparing the GAA into soccer or US professional sports, both in huge global markets. Moneyball? Are counties gonna recruit players based on projected performances made by statisticians? Particularly how you think more 'entertaining' football will prevent better teams hammering lesser teams. I'm talking about supporters going to games, not armchair supporters. I don't think that intercounty GAA supporters are as fickle as casual couch potato's watching soccer, basketball and baseball.
GreenandRed (Mayo) - Posts: 7336 - 09/12/2020 10:01:34
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Replying To Sweetspot: "1) I think if a keeper wants to play ball, let him at it! It's a tough position to fill and we don't want to disincentivize young lads from being keepers. If a keeper wants to go walkabout, let him run that risk!
2) I do like the idea of a backcourt strategy but would worry it runs the risk of ultra defensive set ups to counteract it.
3) it'd be great if we had a line around 45 yards out alright! That's an interesting one because it would definitely incentivise teams to play a higher line of defence, creating more room for inside forwards..
The first thing I'd do anyways is certainly abolish the advanced mark. Tried, failed." You're right about the mark. I've heard that it was to encourage long kickouts. I'm not sure whether that's true but, if it is, then why not just have marks from kickouts received outside the 45 or halfway or wherever.
This short pass to a team-mate who then gets a free shot for a point is nonsense. It just slows the game down.
lionofludesch (Down) - Posts: 475 - 09/12/2020 10:39:22
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You can tell the amount of people that don't play or coach teams on this post, some of these rules would absolutely kill club/underage football. Stop changing rules every year in a knee-jerk reaction to a few hammerings. There are already some ridiculous rules in the game, the keeper not allowed to receive a pass from a kickout being one of them. Surely if you watched the Mayo/Tipp game you'll see how bringing the ball out from the back is a genuine skill and tactic nowadays. I don't want to see balls being kicked aimlessly up the field and lads shooting from anywhere. There's plenty of that in Junior B championships all around the country if that's the football you want to watch
Victorious87 (Wicklow) - Posts: 597 - 09/12/2020 11:03:37
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Replying To lionofludesch: "You're right about the mark. I've heard that it was to encourage long kickouts. I'm not sure whether that's true but, if it is, then why not just have marks from kickouts received outside the 45 or halfway or wherever.
This short pass to a team-mate who then gets a free shot for a point is nonsense. It just slows the game down." EH that is the rule?
Victorious87 (Wicklow) - Posts: 597 - 09/12/2020 11:09:15
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Replying To BostonGuy: "Nope watched the full championship, saw Dublin hammer everyone in sight, saw two semi's that were over after 15 minutes. Agree there were matches in the past that teams got hammered but not 3 successive Leinster finals in a row. Next year how many people will go to a Leinster final? As for me being nostalgic, nope I'm a realist, if you are in sport your are in the entertainment business whether you like it or not. Companies that sponsor teams that get beaten by 22 points will stop sponsoring as they want to protect their brand. TV will stop showing games or people just wont bother watching, advertisers will look elsewhere. Rule changes can help with evolving the game, for example square balls stopped half the opposition from killing the GK, and hand passed goals bans stopped the likes of Eoin Liston just hand passing every ball over the bar or in the net. Hurling penalty changes stopped a player from lifting a ball into the 15 yard line and nearly killing a person with a 100mph ball, single goalie pushed the odds in favor of the striker of the ball.
As for a a couple of bad games, get real football has been awful for almost two decades since the Jim McGuiness days of Donegal, you can point to a couple of epic encounters but a single swallow does not make a Summer." If football has been awful for two decades then why have viewing figures risen? Why has sponsorship increased? If what your saying about the game is going to happen then why did sky want to televise the sport? There may be an issue with the dominance of Dublin bringing certain matches viewing figures down but the game as a whole is still as strong as ever and won't be increased by a few rule changes every time a team becomes dominant.
SaffronDon (Antrim) - Posts: 2385 - 09/12/2020 11:37:37
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Yes I do think we need to teaek a few rules. I have to admit that most games now I find boring. Maybe it's the lack of fans but unless a game iis tight now I find myself doing other things. And while I always loved watching the dubs play I'm finding them a hard watch at the mó with all the lateral passing etc. I gate to say but while I enjoyed alot of the Ulster campaign I found the all ireland semi a tad boring. I miss the old long kickouts with the midfielders battling and players taking on their man and the long distance scores. Maybe make the kickouts go to 45m line and as someone said no go back into own half. Hurling is fine although this sounds crazy but maybe the scoring is gone too high as the ball is lighter now. Maybe a tad heavier might be better. Football has bigger s oring than a few years back but alot of the scores are routine.
CiarraiMick (Dublin) - Posts: 3674 - 09/12/2020 12:04:58
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I agree a lot with Boston Guy. The reason why there are discussions every year about rule changes
is because the rules have not kept pace with developments in the game. It's flawed logic to suggest that because some rule changes introduced have not worked out (advanced mark being cited here) that no further changes should be contemplated. It is also flawed logic to say that coaches will always find ways to spoil rules that are introduced to make the game more offensive....if the risk/ reward ratio is tilted towards more offensive play of course coaching will adapt to more offensive minded strategies. Once upon a time in soccer when a team went 1 or 2 goals up with 15 minutes to play, the game was over as a spectacle...the team with the lead would close shop and play boring but effective defensive play I.e. countless back passes to the goalkeeper who would pick up the ball, caress it, roll it out to his full back who would pass it back to him again, rinse and repeat. But rules were introduced to stop such tactics and the game of soccer has benefitted enormously from it. Now a game is never over until it's over...Man Utd almost overhauled a 3 goal deficit last night...such a prospect would not have been possible 40 years ago under the old soccer rules.
We had a Leinster final and 2 All Ireland semi finals this year that were over by half time , you had other close games that were televised e.g. Cork vs Kerry) that were difficult for neutrals or your casual GAA fan to watch because of the ultra defensive play on show. If the entertainment value goes out of Gaelic Football fewer people will bother to watch and revenue will decrease. Saying that everything is fine with the rules of Gaelic football and the game just needs to be left alone is an anorak response akin to putting one's head in the sand. Gaelic football can be improved upon to make it more offensive minded and more entertaining.
PoolSturgeon (Galway) - Posts: 1902 - 09/12/2020 12:19:51
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Replying To BostonGuy: "Nope watched the full championship, saw Dublin hammer everyone in sight, saw two semi's that were over after 15 minutes. Agree there were matches in the past that teams got hammered but not 3 successive Leinster finals in a row. Next year how many people will go to a Leinster final? As for me being nostalgic, nope I'm a realist, if you are in sport your are in the entertainment business whether you like it or not. Companies that sponsor teams that get beaten by 22 points will stop sponsoring as they want to protect their brand. TV will stop showing games or people just wont bother watching, advertisers will look elsewhere. Rule changes can help with evolving the game, for example square balls stopped half the opposition from killing the GK, and hand passed goals bans stopped the likes of Eoin Liston just hand passing every ball over the bar or in the net. Hurling penalty changes stopped a player from lifting a ball into the 15 yard line and nearly killing a person with a 100mph ball, single goalie pushed the odds in favor of the striker of the ball.
As for a a couple of bad games, get real football has been awful for almost two decades since the Jim McGuiness days of Donegal, you can point to a couple of epic encounters but a single swallow does not make a Summer." Rule changes won't solve the current issue of Dublin being way ahead of everyone else. There have been a number of quite good championship games this year. Also rule changes filter down to all levels of football club and underage so just bringing in rules to solve a problem at intercounty level and creating a problem at all other levels is not correct either. I wouldn't say the Advanced mark hasn't worked - I've seen it work very effectively in our club championships here. Definitely provides for a more direct style of football and some spectacular catching and contest for a long ball.
I would like the Black card rule looked at. instead of a Sin bin the punishment for a black card is an automatic 13 M free. and in the last 5 minutes of Playing time the punishment is a penalty instead of a 13M free. That would quickly address the issue.
indaknownow (Offaly) - Posts: 112 - 09/12/2020 12:48:30
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Replying To gatha: "I always liked this rule. On paper it is easy to enforce. Allow 7 players in the offensive or defensive side of the field. If a half back or mid fielder carry the ball into the offensive side the 2 midfielders or 1 midfield has to stay out. If there is a turnover there should be the proper number of players on the other side of the field. It would be the end of the blank defenses. It works in Lacrosse. Don't know if it would work in football but it is worth a shot. I do agree the advanced mark is a complete failure." Yeah it an interesting one, the linesmen would probably have to become secondary refs though to implement it.
BostonGuy (Galway) - Posts: 111 - 09/12/2020 13:00:25
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Replying To CiarraiMick: "Yes I do think we need to teaek a few rules. I have to admit that most games now I find boring. Maybe it's the lack of fans but unless a game iis tight now I find myself doing other things. And while I always loved watching the dubs play I'm finding them a hard watch at the mó with all the lateral passing etc. I gate to say but while I enjoyed alot of the Ulster campaign I found the all ireland semi a tad boring. I miss the old long kickouts with the midfielders battling and players taking on their man and the long distance scores. Maybe make the kickouts go to 45m line and as someone said no go back into own half. Hurling is fine although this sounds crazy but maybe the scoring is gone too high as the ball is lighter now. Maybe a tad heavier might be better. Football has bigger s oring than a few years back but alot of the scores are routine." Exactly my point and I done the exact same thing with this years football. Systems evolve and the game needs to evolve with it.
BostonGuy (Galway) - Posts: 111 - 09/12/2020 13:12:08
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Replying To SaffronDon: "If football has been awful for two decades then why have viewing figures risen? Why has sponsorship increased? If what your saying about the game is going to happen then why did sky want to televise the sport? There may be an issue with the dominance of Dublin bringing certain matches viewing figures down but the game as a whole is still as strong as ever and won't be increased by a few rule changes every time a team becomes dominant." Sky is also looking for content you can watch poker and darts on sky. I would love to see the sky numbers for hurling versus football, also sky only broadcasts some of the games not all. Viewing figures are one metric and are historic in nature, there is also sentiment, age/profile, falloff and other considerations. If Dublin hammer Mayo (which they did last year or the year before in the semi's) do you not think Sky will have a discussion in London and ask the question "What's the point?" or "What's in it for viewers to watch these games" and take action. DO you not think the GAA is discussing this in head quarters and are worried about future revenue and viewership? There is also another chat on this forum called "Football is dead" strong words if as some feel that football is thriving.
As for Dublin's dominance of the current system and the "this too will pass" approach, heres another statistic, the great Kerry team of the eighties basically had the same 25 players all through their dynasty, Kilkenny hurlers were a little better with their team with a few adds here and there but basically had the same team. Dublin had three players starting from their first in a row AI six years ago, had the following on the bench this week McMahon, O Sullivan, Lownes, Mannion, Costello, had Connolly and McCarthy and others retire and I would say they have a replica of every single player that started last Sunday, robots that are supreme athletes and can play to the system that will guarantee a win, maybe a hammering but definitely boring.
BostonGuy (Galway) - Posts: 111 - 09/12/2020 13:34:49
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Replying To indaknownow: "Rule changes won't solve the current issue of Dublin being way ahead of everyone else. There have been a number of quite good championship games this year. Also rule changes filter down to all levels of football club and underage so just bringing in rules to solve a problem at intercounty level and creating a problem at all other levels is not correct either. I wouldn't say the Advanced mark hasn't worked - I've seen it work very effectively in our club championships here. Definitely provides for a more direct style of football and some spectacular catching and contest for a long ball.
I would like the Black card rule looked at. instead of a Sin bin the punishment for a black card is an automatic 13 M free. and in the last 5 minutes of Playing time the punishment is a penalty instead of a 13M free. That would quickly address the issue." I agree with you I like the black card suggestion, but you just countered your own point. You like the rule change for advanced mark ( which personally I don't ) and made a suggestion on the black card. All Im saying here is that rule changes can be progressive and should be discussed. The attitude of "Sure tis alright the way it is" is not forward thinking and if the rules didn't change over the years we would be all standing in the box and ready to punch the GK every time the ball came into the square.
As for Dublin (fair play to them) they have mastered the current system, with laterals, keep ball and supreme athletes, they are also good footballers too. I would say the scary thing about Dublin is their "Plug and play" capability anyone on their panel is programmed to the system and can carry it out with deadly efficiency.
BostonGuy (Galway) - Posts: 111 - 09/12/2020 13:45:43
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Replying To PoolSturgeon: "I agree a lot with Boston Guy. The reason why there are discussions every year about rule changes
is because the rules have not kept pace with developments in the game. It's flawed logic to suggest that because some rule changes introduced have not worked out (advanced mark being cited here) that no further changes should be contemplated. It is also flawed logic to say that coaches will always find ways to spoil rules that are introduced to make the game more offensive....if the risk/ reward ratio is tilted towards more offensive play of course coaching will adapt to more offensive minded strategies. Once upon a time in soccer when a team went 1 or 2 goals up with 15 minutes to play, the game was over as a spectacle...the team with the lead would close shop and play boring but effective defensive play I.e. countless back passes to the goalkeeper who would pick up the ball, caress it, roll it out to his full back who would pass it back to him again, rinse and repeat. But rules were introduced to stop such tactics and the game of soccer has benefitted enormously from it. Now a game is never over until it's over...Man Utd almost overhauled a 3 goal deficit last night...such a prospect would not have been possible 40 years ago under the old soccer rules.
We had a Leinster final and 2 All Ireland semi finals this year that were over by half time , you had other close games that were televised e.g. Cork vs Kerry) that were difficult for neutrals or your casual GAA fan to watch because of the ultra defensive play on show. If the entertainment value goes out of Gaelic Football fewer people will bother to watch and revenue will decrease. Saying that everything is fine with the rules of Gaelic football and the game just needs to be left alone is an anorak response akin to putting one's head in the sand. Gaelic football can be improved upon to make it more offensive minded and more entertaining." Exactly my point, there needs to be open discussion, we have had rule changes in the past some worked some didnt but to not make changes based on some of these did not work is a big mistake in my view. Your soccer analogy is spot on and GKs have become better players as a result of the back pass rule.
We have got to get to a risk/reward that benefits offence, this brings excitement and entertainment and skill to the fore. Will it stop the Dubs? No its not ment to but it will get them to change their current system that they have mastered so well that relies on keep ball, laterals, supreme athletes oh and also a drizzle of skillful football here and there. Right now we reward defensive and possession, there are some in the words of Mrs Doyle from Father Ted "Well some of us LIKE the misery of watching defensive tactics, keep ball and lateral passes" but there are a lot of us that dont and if we continue down the current path this number will definitely grow
BostonGuy (Galway) - Posts: 111 - 09/12/2020 13:57:49
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Replying To BostonGuy: "I agree with you I like the black card suggestion, but you just countered your own point. You like the rule change for advanced mark ( which personally I don't ) and made a suggestion on the black card. All Im saying here is that rule changes can be progressive and should be discussed. The attitude of "Sure tis alright the way it is" is not forward thinking and if the rules didn't change over the years we would be all standing in the box and ready to punch the GK every time the ball came into the square.
As for Dublin (fair play to them) they have mastered the current system, with laterals, keep ball and supreme athletes, they are also good footballers too. I would say the scary thing about Dublin is their "Plug and play" capability anyone on their panel is programmed to the system and can carry it out with deadly efficiency." Not sure how I counter my own argument. What I'm saying is that any rule change has to be looked at in its entirety - for all the population playing the game and not just the inter-county games. Things like the sin bin are fine at intercounty levels but if you are an aging referee in a minor match with no crowd control and 50 parents baying for blood. keeping track of 3 sin bins at the same time might be difficult. All of these decisions need to be looked at from all angles>
indaknownow (Offaly) - Posts: 112 - 09/12/2020 14:05:20
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Replying To GreenandRed: "Can you try answering the questions I asked rather than tangenting into comparing the GAA into soccer or US professional sports, both in huge global markets. Moneyball? Are counties gonna recruit players based on projected performances made by statisticians? Particularly how you think more 'entertaining' football will prevent better teams hammering lesser teams. I'm talking about supporters going to games, not armchair supporters. I don't think that intercounty GAA supporters are as fickle as casual couch potato's watching soccer, basketball and baseball." To answer your question, better teams will always win, Kerry were still dominant after Eoin Liston couldn't hand pass a score anymore. The goal is NOT to kill the better teams and I never said 'entertaining' football would prevent better teams wining but it is to ensure the games evolve as new tactics and strategies strangle the current approach. As for dont compare GAA to soccer, I think GAA is competing against soccer and rugby here in Ireland and the fact that GAA Go and Sky have deals show the global platform for the GAA. It might just be Irish ex-Pats right now but the market can grow, but not with "puke football". Do I think teams select players based on stats within county teams? 100% they are looking at statistics, You may remember Lee Keegan throwing his GPS at Dean Rock in an AI, they are tracking age, nutrition, recovery, distance, body fat, injury risk, opposition video analysis, fatigue of the current GAA intercountry (and some clubs) player, and as for the GAA is not a professional sport, its like rugby before it turned professional, the only thing amateur is the non-payment of a salary to the players, everyone else is getting paid, even the guy selling choc ices from a cart.
As for the fickle supporter I would like to hear from the Meath fan who is going to head down to CP next year to see their team trounced in a game of keep ball. The armchair supporter is what kept GAA going through covid and is what also allows the GAA to grow their platform, they buy merchandise, watch ads, pay for value added products/services a lot more than a paltry attendance at some games. Liverpool would not survive on the takings from Anfield, its a contributor no doubt but don't discount the armchair supporter.
BostonGuy (Galway) - Posts: 111 - 09/12/2020 15:54:37
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Replying To indaknownow: "Not sure how I counter my own argument. What I'm saying is that any rule change has to be looked at in its entirety - for all the population playing the game and not just the inter-county games. Things like the sin bin are fine at intercounty levels but if you are an aging referee in a minor match with no crowd control and 50 parents baying for blood. keeping track of 3 sin bins at the same time might be difficult. All of these decisions need to be looked at from all angles>" Totally agree with you, we need to look at each change in its entirety and its impact down to the kids level. Lets not make change for change sake but to ignore the blight in the current game is going to hurt the game in the long run.
BostonGuy (Galway) - Posts: 111 - 09/12/2020 15:56:47
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Replying To tirawleybaron: "Two point for sideline kick that goes over
New 45m arch and two points for anything that goes over from there
All deliberate fouls in last 10 min results in free from that 45m line
Only kick passes back to keeper and keeper not allowed handpass that back pass
2 min shot clock" Now those are things to consider!!! and I agree it REWARDS offence and punishes negativity and this is what Im trying to get across, does it mean it will stop Dublin.....NO. But I guarantee they and other will have to change their robotic system. Appreciate the suggestions
BostonGuy (Galway) - Posts: 111 - 09/12/2020 16:04:02
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One obvious rule change is to reduce teams to 13-a-side. Would make it easier for smaller clubs/counties to compete, and make more space and facilitate attacking football.
On a broader scale we need to encourage participation; more football for the casual and older player, perhaps change the rules in some way. You can play soccer or rugby till you are very senior, but now the commitment required and the demands of the game makes footballers over 30 an increasingly rare breed
befair (Down) - Posts: 237 - 09/12/2020 16:13:22
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No hand passing a score unless it is a volley from a pass to you
Once the ball crosses the 45 the attacking team can't pass it back outside.
Once the ball is past the halfway mark the attacking team can't take it back
Absolutely no pass back to the goalie. Ball can be passed to the goalie if he is in line or ahead of you.
Kickouts must pass a new 30m line at least or it is a throw ball on the 21.
Get rid of the forward mark
If a ball is caught passed the 45 from a kickouts it is an automatic mark and the player must stop to take his free. Free cannot be kicked backwards
Line ball cannot be passed backwards.
republicofcloone (Leitrim) - Posts: 375 - 09/12/2020 16:13:56
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Replying To hopballref: "Max of 2 hand passes then have to kick.
Free kicks have to go forward.
Has to be 4 of your own players inside each half at all times. Linesmen to control this.
Get rid of inside mark. Keep kick out one.
Bring back that overhead hand pass they used to do in the 70's! Was a good way of keeping the ball moving." Again thank you just like tirawleybaron, this discussion is for new rules not to say everything is grand with the way it is, I not might agree with the 2 hand pass limit as defense will count and become predictable, I do agree with a forward free kick it encourages going forward. The big one you have is number of players allowed in a region (like lacrosse), linesmen have to become secondary refs but this is hard at underage level where both sides pick a linesman!! But would allow for skillful players (David Clifford, Shane Walsh) to excel
The problem I have with marks is that it gives the opposition the time to regroup, I think there needs to be a reward for kicking from distance the "H" is a narrow target the risk/reward is not there for a single point from play from distance. Thanks for the suggestions
BostonGuy (Galway) - Posts: 111 - 09/12/2020 16:16:09
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