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In terms of games development funding. Everyone wants the GAA to have a strong presence in Dublin, it's the county with by far the biggest population and if the GAA considers itself a national organisation it needs to have a strong presence there.
My issue with the funding and fairness is not that Dublin are winning Leinster and All Ireland's at inter county level, it's the thought that, when it comes to the games my kids are not getting the same support from the central GAA when it comes to funding as kids who play the games in Dublin. And from what you read the difference is quiet big. My kids, if they got better support would probably end up being better footballers/ hurlers and also would be more likely to stay playing the games.
I would say a side effect of the extra support at club level for Dublin kids/ players have got for about the last 15 years has resulted in the standard of player available for selection for Dublin county teams being much higher than would otherwise be the case (the extra support also probably means many kids have kept playing into adulthood who otherwise would have drifted away from playing).
The reverse is also the case, counties outside Dublin have have a much lower standard of club players to pick from because their club players have not received as much support as has happened in Dublin.
I have heard of the east Leinster project which has just being put in place, it's hard to know how this will operate as due to Covid it probably has not actually really being put into practice yet but I fear that it is primarily focused on clubs in urban sprawl locations and will result in rural clubs in Meath/ Kildare/ Wicklow and Louth being left behind further.
The area of funds available for preparation of county teams is a separate issue on top of this.
bdbuddah (Meath) - Posts: 1337 - 07/12/2020 11:00:17
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Replying To TheUsername: "I felt a bit sorry for Andy in fairness, i think its was a bit of mismatch.
I thought Giller made some really good points, stuff ive been saying on here for the past couple of years. Though i would say he got a bit over excited at the end, but anyone who knows him will know hes a passionate man.
Its great that this is getting debated on the national airwaves, would also like to see the GAA involved in the debate as well.
For the alternative point of view, i think they should look elsewhere then Andy id have a lot of time for him as a manager and coach and is a great GAA man, but i thought he was a bit out of his depth, leading out on the that die of the debate last night." One on one debates rarely serve much purpose beyond providing entertainment for the viewers. They become personal duels and often times both sides refuse to learn from or listen to the other,, preferring instead the adrenaline high of getting the last word in. Gilroy may have been able to articulate his points more clearly than Andy but that doesn't necessarily mean he's right imo.
Galway9801 (Galway) - Posts: 1698 - 07/12/2020 11:09:45
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Replying To heartbroken: "My first post on this subject. Split Dublin is bull., they have a phenomenal football team at the moment but there hurling team is average. Why cant Dublin be All Ireland contenders in Hurling. The problem with the GAA is they are money driven so wont get rid of proventual championship which are a joke in both codes. We need a champions league format for both codes and knockout after group stages." Lads you have to look at the numbers - not the Money numbers but the player numbers here. The reality of the situation is this. The number of adult players playing football in dublin is - I'm guessing - at least twice what it is in any other county and probably 3 or 4 times most of the top counties and possibly 10 times the likes of Carlow or Leitrim (no offence to those counties). I have no issue with the amount of money Dublin gets from GAA in development and Coaching grants because per capita it probably equates to what other counties get. But my point is that if Dublin football continues to have at least twice the amount of adult players funneling into their team then there is no end in sight for their domination. What they have is a conveyer belt of talent that is relentless. 3 or four new players fit in effortlessly to their team each year. I'm sure the average age of the Dublin team now is still only 25/6 and if you take cluxton out its probably 24. The All Ireland Senior football championship is not a competition as it stands. And a continuation of this dominance serves no purpose.
Regarding the Dubs non-dominance in hurling - 2 simple reasons here. 1. Football is the main sport - Dublin do not have the same advantage in terms of the number of adults playing the game that they do in football. 2. There's probably 5 or six of the football panel that could play intercounty Hurling if they weren't playing football.
In summary - all about the numbers. Not the money
indaknownow (Offaly) - Posts: 112 - 07/12/2020 11:36:46
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Replying To bdbuddah: "In terms of games development funding. Everyone wants the GAA to have a strong presence in Dublin, it's the county with by far the biggest population and if the GAA considers itself a national organisation it needs to have a strong presence there.
My issue with the funding and fairness is not that Dublin are winning Leinster and All Ireland's at inter county level, it's the thought that, when it comes to the games my kids are not getting the same support from the central GAA when it comes to funding as kids who play the games in Dublin. And from what you read the difference is quiet big. My kids, if they got better support would probably end up being better footballers/ hurlers and also would be more likely to stay playing the games.
I would say a side effect of the extra support at club level for Dublin kids/ players have got for about the last 15 years has resulted in the standard of player available for selection for Dublin county teams being much higher than would otherwise be the case (the extra support also probably means many kids have kept playing into adulthood who otherwise would have drifted away from playing).
The reverse is also the case, counties outside Dublin have have a much lower standard of club players to pick from because their club players have not received as much support as has happened in Dublin.
I have heard of the east Leinster project which has just being put in place, it's hard to know how this will operate as due to Covid it probably has not actually really being put into practice yet but I fear that it is primarily focused on clubs in urban sprawl locations and will result in rural clubs in Meath/ Kildare/ Wicklow and Louth being left behind further.
The area of funds available for preparation of county teams is a separate issue on top of this." Andy said last night there was 40 + full time GDO, GDA's GPO in Meath. There are 80 odd in Dublin i believe.
Was quite surprised by that i would have thought it was less.
When you look at populations - 1.4 mill
Vs
200k odd in Meath.
That's not to shabby.
TheUsername (Dublin) - Posts: 4445 - 07/12/2020 11:48:28
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Replying To Galway9801: "One on one debates rarely serve much purpose beyond providing entertainment for the viewers. They become personal duels and often times both sides refuse to learn from or listen to the other,, preferring instead the adrenaline high of getting the last word in. Gilroy may have been able to articulate his points more clearly than Andy but that doesn't necessarily mean he's right imo." I think its a really good start, i dont think anybody whatever side of the debate you are on, doesn't want the issue raised or not be transparent about it. Its really good to have a healthy national debater about it.
I like to see it go broader and further with direct plans and outcomes nest step for me is the GAA get involved in the debate as well.
TheUsername (Dublin) - Posts: 4445 - 07/12/2020 11:51:40
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Replying To TheUsername: "I felt a bit sorry for Andy in fairness, i think its was a bit of mismatch.
I thought Giller made some really good points, stuff ive been saying on here for the past couple of years. Though i would say he got a bit over excited at the end, but anyone who knows him will know hes a passionate man.
Its great that this is getting debated on the national airwaves, would also like to see the GAA involved in the debate as well.
For the alternative point of view, i think they should look elsewhere then Andy id have a lot of time for him as a manager and coach and is a great GAA man, but i thought he was a bit out of his depth, leading out on the that die of the debate last night." I thought Gilroy kept talking over him which was quite frustrating. I've no real issue with what he said he just needed to stop talking and let Andy speak. Andy is actually quite articulate and obviously considering his financial background in Davys would probably be better placed to speak on those issues than Pat.
HighKings (Meath) - Posts: 271 - 07/12/2020 11:57:03
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Replying To TheUsername: "Andy said last night there was 40 + full time GDO, GDA's GPO in Meath. There are 80 odd in Dublin i believe.
Was quite surprised by that i would have thought it was less.
When you look at populations - 1.4 mill
Vs
200k odd in Meath.
That's not to shabby." It should be noted, as I understand it, that's relatively recent though and Meath have already improved underage. It'll take years to see the knock-on effects though. You gotta remember Dublin have a decade of that work done. It's essential trying to catch a speeding train. Doesn't mean you shouldn't do it just have to be aware it won't solve all the problems.
And like was mentioned last night I think a more radical approach is needed. If Dublin is to be split than I think other counties should be merged. People might not like it initially but success might soon change that. If we're going the equality route than it's not just Dublin that will have to make sacrifices. This isn't a Dublin problem it's a GAA problem. Dublin have simply highlighted the issue.
HighKings (Meath) - Posts: 271 - 07/12/2020 12:04:13
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Replying To GeniusGerry: "2018 income was only just above half of 2019, you are trying to use an exception to prove your point and well you know it. I have never once claimed Kerry are badly off, even on this thread I have said we are one of the more privileged counties.
Can you post a link to the unabridged financial statements for Dublin as requested. You were posting links all over the place not long ago trying to be the hero. It is a reasonable request in the context of the debate and your continuing narrative pushing Dublin as the bastions of transparency. It will only take you a moment.
As I have said above Dublins revenue is miles out of whack with their planned CapEx projects. By your own admission they have spent €25m on land acquisition before they've even broken ground. I'm genuinely intrigued to know how they are paying for it all with so little income relatively speaking. The figures just don't add up.
No doubt you will try to scamper to the high moral ground now because I doubt you have a clue as to the real story beyond a basic google search, but something is seriously amiss in those figures." Well done Gerry it looks like you've won that debate and username has conceded as he can't produce what you're looking for, I find that's funny as a few pages back he doubted that any 1 knew more than himself what was happening on the ground in dublin.
He's a bluffer.
KingdomBoy1 (Kerry) - Posts: 14092 - 07/12/2020 12:05:12
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A very interesting debate and one that really needs to happen however I will say not in the format that happened over the weekend. Both Saturday and Sunday were nothing more than frantic brain dumps of a few people who no more had enough time to prepare anything of proper worth. If a debate is to happen and RTE insist on facilitating it then they may as well have a Prime Time style affair and really get under the bonnet of the whole thing.
I see many non Dubs jumping down the throat of Gilroy today rightly or wrongly but from a Dublin perspective I feel he was probably getting a little hot under the collar after listening to comments on Saturday amongst others and felt the need to redress the balance somewhat. I would suggest he also feels his managerial accomplishments from 2011 in particular are being attacked too. While the likes of Donaghy, Gooch, Tomás etc are throwing out various suggestions relating to funding, splitting Dublin etc it is quite hard for any Dub to come to the table and keep a level head I would say. I think from a Dublin point of view we sit back and watch a lot of these so-called experts of the game discuss plans to take an axe to Dublin and divide it into 2, 3 or 4 or whatever it is without realising any change to happen in Dublin cannot happen without Dublin's consent. Dublin will not allow themselves be railroaded into drastic change if its against their will. What county would be ok with that? None.
I think any Dublin person or fan without an ounce of common sense realises there is a problem but when the people on the airwaves that are designing the solutions have none of your counties interests at heart and some actively interested in your demise then it'll be very hard to find a solution that suits everyone. I think from many quarters there is a distinct lack of consideration given to this and the presumption that Dublin will just accept a split as a given is miles wide of the mark.
TrueBlue35 (Dublin) - Posts: 206 - 07/12/2020 12:08:35
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Replying To galwayfball: "To answer pat Gilroy question of why Kerry and kilkennys dominance was sifferent to the way dublins dominance is now because kerry or Kilkenny never had a board set up by the GAA with the specific purpose to help them compete. There dominance was all driven from within the county and not a board set up by the GAA in 2003 .
Same reason Galway didnt complain about Corofins dominance in Galway - we didnt like it but it was because of Frank Morris a Corofin man that they dominated for so long - not because the GAA got involved to help them" And also because KK didnt have a massive population advantage coupled with home venue etc etc
Malonemagic (Laois) - Posts: 765 - 07/12/2020 12:24:45
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Debates, be they nation or otherwise on this issue are completely pointless, people's views are too steeped in bias and nobody is going to change their mind based on a ten minute live debate on TV, a prime time special, an article in the paper or anything else of that nature. Last night was a shambles, McEntee looked terrified and Gilroy came across as terribly rude and arrogant. Some of the stuff he was saying was just bizarre, likening being born in Leitrim to racism for example, I mean WTF? Is this really the best RTÉ can do?
I have said for a long time that what is needed before any changes are brought forward is a rigorous independent (ie not commissioned by GAA) review of GAA funding and distribution, with recommendations on how to support counties to improve participation and performance. Everything should be looked at in the terms of reference, from Games Development, Coaching and S & C, Commercial Revenue, Capital Expenditure planning etc. Centralise programmes if necessary, look at how resources might be shared etc. A cold hard look from every angle is what is needed, and it should be carried out by an expert independent working group with a chair that is absolutely beyond reproach. A whitewash report would be useless and a waste of everyone's time.
There is too much misinformation, misdirection and emotion in the debate and it has been going around in circles for as long as we can all remember. Certain counties are being left behind and players are being lost to the game while the GAA dithers. Nobody has all the facts in any sort of useful format, not even the GAA, and anybody telling you they have is not worth listening to quite frankly.
GeniusGerry (Kerry) - Posts: 2105 - 07/12/2020 12:24:58
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Replying To galwayfball: "To answer pat Gilroy question of why Kerry and kilkennys dominance was sifferent to the way dublins dominance is now because kerry or Kilkenny never had a board set up by the GAA with the specific purpose to help them compete. There dominance was all driven from within the county and not a board set up by the GAA in 2003 .
Same reason Galway didnt complain about Corofins dominance in Galway - we didnt like it but it was because of Frank Morris a Corofin man that they dominated for so long - not because the GAA got involved to help them" I read on another forum that dublin only had only 5 starters on their 5 in a row winning team last year from the team that started it back in 2015.
From the kerry team that started our run from 78 to 86 we still had 10 of the team that started in 78 starting in 86.
I don't know how many changes were on the Kilkenny team from the 00s as I don't follow hurling a lot but I doubt they had 10 changes from 06 to 2010.
KingdomBoy1 (Kerry) - Posts: 14092 - 07/12/2020 12:56:57
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Replying To HighKings: "It should be noted, as I understand it, that's relatively recent though and Meath have already improved underage. It'll take years to see the knock-on effects though. You gotta remember Dublin have a decade of that work done. It's essential trying to catch a speeding train. Doesn't mean you shouldn't do it just have to be aware it won't solve all the problems.
And like was mentioned last night I think a more radical approach is needed. If Dublin is to be split than I think other counties should be merged. People might not like it initially but success might soon change that. If we're going the equality route than it's not just Dublin that will have to make sacrifices. This isn't a Dublin problem it's a GAA problem. Dublin have simply highlighted the issue." Still 40/80 in comparison between Dublin and Meath is not to shabby given the difference in populations.
I wonder do Kildare have similar?
Very fair points on establishing and waiting in the long grass for any tangible results, you might know more about then me, when did the east Leinster project structurally get up and running 2017?
Genuinely curious.
TheUsername (Dublin) - Posts: 4445 - 07/12/2020 13:24:09
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Replying To TheUsername: "Andy said last night there was 40 + full time GDO, GDA's GPO in Meath. There are 80 odd in Dublin i believe.
Was quite surprised by that i would have thought it was less.
When you look at populations - 1.4 mill
Vs
200k odd in Meath.
That's not to shabby." I could be wrong, I watched the Sunday Game last night, I don't remember Andy mentioning 40 GDO's in Meath (can't download on RTE player so can't check), I thought he made a point that a combination of counties near Dublin (including Meath) had more registered players but far less GDOs.
Meath having 40 GDO's doesn't seem to tally with my experience, this year our club has a young lad there to help but he is shared with 4 or 5 clubs. Haven't seen much of him but this is probably down to Covid.
bdbuddah (Meath) - Posts: 1337 - 07/12/2020 18:13:44
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Replying To TheUsername: "Maths doesn't need to be your strong point to work out which situation you would prefer financially.
Dublin income: 2019: €5.25 mill, to operate GAA for 1.345million people.
Kerry income 2019: €6.14mill to operate GAA for 147k people.
If you landed in Ireland tonight and knew nothing about GAA which county would you think need intervention from the GAA in terms of financial fairness." Do these figures include GAA grants?
joeteor (Donegal) - Posts: 214 - 07/12/2020 18:14:33
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Replying To TheUsername: "I felt a bit sorry for Andy in fairness, i think its was a bit of mismatch.
I thought Giller made some really good points, stuff ive been saying on here for the past couple of years. Though i would say he got a bit over excited at the end, but anyone who knows him will know hes a passionate man.
Its great that this is getting debated on the national airwaves, would also like to see the GAA involved in the debate as well.
For the alternative point of view, i think they should look elsewhere then Andy id have a lot of time for him as a manager and coach and is a great GAA man, but i thought he was a bit out of his depth, leading out on the that die of the debate last night." I think that's a bit unfair on Andy. I thought Andy was there more to generally discuss issues of funding and challenges faced by counties outside Dublin rather than debate for or against a certain statement.
I found it interesting that Pat Gilroy didn't rule out splitting Dublin (funny Andy himself seemed to be against that idea) and I thought Gilroy made a very good point in saying urbanisation is going to keep happening in Ireland so we need to think what type of competition is suitable to have in 2050 and the current competition based on county boundaries currently in place will be less suitable as time goes on.
bdbuddah (Meath) - Posts: 1337 - 07/12/2020 18:27:46
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Are the figures quoted for school age boys and girls like Gilroy said or are they per registered player. If they are per registered player why is Dublins numbers so low?
lilylanger (Kildare) - Posts: 758 - 07/12/2020 18:37:37
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Replying To GeniusGerry: "Debates, be they nation or otherwise on this issue are completely pointless, people's views are too steeped in bias and nobody is going to change their mind based on a ten minute live debate on TV, a prime time special, an article in the paper or anything else of that nature. Last night was a shambles, McEntee looked terrified and Gilroy came across as terribly rude and arrogant. Some of the stuff he was saying was just bizarre, likening being born in Leitrim to racism for example, I mean WTF? Is this really the best RTÉ can do?
I have said for a long time that what is needed before any changes are brought forward is a rigorous independent (ie not commissioned by GAA) review of GAA funding and distribution, with recommendations on how to support counties to improve participation and performance. Everything should be looked at in the terms of reference, from Games Development, Coaching and S & C, Commercial Revenue, Capital Expenditure planning etc. Centralise programmes if necessary, look at how resources might be shared etc. A cold hard look from every angle is what is needed, and it should be carried out by an expert independent working group with a chair that is absolutely beyond reproach. A whitewash report would be useless and a waste of everyone's time.
There is too much misinformation, misdirection and emotion in the debate and it has been going around in circles for as long as we can all remember. Certain counties are being left behind and players are being lost to the game while the GAA dithers. Nobody has all the facts in any sort of useful format, not even the GAA, and anybody telling you they have is not worth listening to quite frankly." Excellent post Gerry
superbluedub (Dublin) - Posts: 2837 - 07/12/2020 18:39:09
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Replying To TheUsername: "Still 40/80 in comparison between Dublin and Meath is not to shabby given the difference in populations.
I wonder do Kildare have similar?
Very fair points on establishing and waiting in the long grass for any tangible results, you might know more about then me, when did the east Leinster project structurally get up and running 2017?
Genuinely curious." The Leinster East project was announced end of 2016 I think and was supposed to run for 3 years but it could have been extended for all I know
Regarding the GDOs etc. I don't actually know what the figure is. I just knew it had increased. But literally only in the last couple of years, so very early days.
HighKings (Meath) - Posts: 271 - 07/12/2020 18:39:29
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Waterford are 240,000 in the red with no gate receipts and despite that are in an All Ireland final. This to some might not seem massive but to a county our size with the income streams available it is massive. I know first hand how that the Waterford public are extremely generous and put money into everything run by the board and club Deise. Getting the stadium done is like pulling teeth. Inspite of what people think of Walsh Park it was our Croke Park growing up and lifted you when you played there.
I totally get point about the size of Dublin and allocation of funds. Dublin will not be spit up. Is that what we want ? Three for four teams in Dublin and another three or four in Cork and the odd other one around the country. That just drives the professional narrative that already exist but hush hush.
Money makes money and generates more money. Using a head to head population equation is not going to improve or maintain places like Waterford, Leitrm, Clare, Sligo, Carlow, etc. etc. There was a very defined policy to get Dublin to where they are and I have no beef with that. If the same is not applied to other counties then I would not count on the future. If the powers that be don't care just say so and continue the march towards professionalism where money is the path to success.
Canuck (Waterford) - Posts: 2655 - 07/12/2020 19:12:01
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