National Forum

Should Referees Be Asked To Explain

(Oldest Posts First) - Go To The Latest Post


Refs can end an entire teams season with a few bad calls. Months of hard work and training potentially undone in a decision. Gaa love fiddling with the rules to try to improve the game. Improving the standard and consistency of refs would be a big start.

kevin03 (Tyrone) - Posts: 276 - 23/11/2020 20:52:52    2314293

Link

For a start Refs could offer an opinion on why there have been so few draws this year, compared to any other. No incentive??

martinjoe (Mayo) - Posts: 499 - 23/11/2020 21:09:33    2314309

Link

After all inter county games the referees have to go through a review with the referee co-ordinator in Croke Park and the referee has to explain and discuss the big calls that he made. Mistakes that were made are discussed so that lessons can be learned. That's the appropriate forum. It was a good weekend over all for match officials.

midfield9 (Westmeath) - Posts: 102 - 23/11/2020 21:38:12    2314330

Link

Replying To martinjoe:  "For a start Refs could offer an opinion on why there have been so few draws this year, compared to any other. No incentive??"
Any actual evidence for this?

So far we've had 3 games (out of 26) go to extra time (Cavan Vs. Monaghan, Cork Vs. Kerry and Limerick Vs. Tipperary).
In 2019 only 2 out of 29 provincial games drew after normal time.
In 2018 only 3 out of 29 provincial games drew after normal time. In fact there were no replays at all in 2018.
In 2017 there was 1 draw across all 4 provinces.

If anything we're running above average for draws this year....

CastleBravo (Meath) - Posts: 1644 - 23/11/2020 21:59:15    2314354

Link

No referees shouldn't be put on the spot on television, maybe RTE should have former referees as pundits that could analyse why different frees were given or why yellow or red cards were issued for certain offences. The GAA are crying out for referees if they are told they have to go on television after a match to explain their dicisions who is going to want to referee inter-county or big club games.

Donal og Cusack more or less questioned Johnny Murphy's integrity and he should be reprimanded for it, I remember too after the drawn 2014 all Ireland final he spent a good while criticizing the referee scrutinizing little and small things even though the referee overall had a good final. Maybe Donal og should take up refereeing it might not be as easy as he thinks and maybe he might also appreciate the difficult job they have and he won't be so quick to criticise.

DUALSUPPORT (Limerick) - Posts: 1038 - 23/11/2020 22:28:07    2314379

Link

All in all referees do a good job. From time to time a wrong call ends up causing a loss or win. Like Limerick last year in hurling. Hopefully it is discussed and corrective action taken to avoid a recurrence. I have no doubt the Limerick one would not have been missed if the lines man was behind the taker. The trajectory of the ball had to have changed. The umpire may have been looking up at the posts. The refs are also given a set of rules to follow that make it not always easy to please everyone. To me this whole yellow and red card situation is a whole other story as to what they are issued for. The games have evolved and the players now are more inclined to take advantage of rules. The worst is faking injury or a hit which is deplorable. In ice hockey you get a penalty called unsportman like conduct for it. The other players hate it and usually the next team you play make sure you pay a price.

Canuck (Waterford) - Posts: 2660 - 23/11/2020 22:29:09    2314382

Link

Replying To breffnibluewhite:  "Barry Cassidy had an absolute shocker yerterday. he should have cost Cavan an ulster title but by some miraculous display of heart and guts we overcame his 5 blatant incorrect decisions. The two black cards were incorrect the foul on Tomas galligan when viewed on rte angle was a definite red card and would most definitely been one if it had of been a yellow and green jersey lying on the ground. Gearoid was denied a definite mark and martin reilly a definite free after a double foul in a very good position. The second black card should have cost cavan the match. Donegal only scored three points in total when cavan had their full fifteen players on the feel. My blood boils when after following Cavan for fifty years to think that our second anglo celt was so close to be robbed oft us by this mans ineptitude. To make matters worse none of this was highlighted on RTE last night and yet Sean Cavanagh tried to create controvesry over Cavan goal against down which no one had any problem with during the match and never mentioned that Downs goal should have been disallowed because it came from a mark that should not have been given.
Mickey was right the underdog never gets a break and because barry cassidy abject performance was never discussed last night he is probably in line for an all ireland final some joke"
Yes, ye won it despite the Ref. Don't agree with explaining after, but agree with explaining during, like in Rugby, which works well

essmac (Tyrone) - Posts: 1141 - 23/11/2020 23:50:48    2314415

Link

Replying To DUALSUPPORT:  "No referees shouldn't be put on the spot on television, maybe RTE should have former referees as pundits that could analyse why different frees were given or why yellow or red cards were issued for certain offences. The GAA are crying out for referees if they are told they have to go on television after a match to explain their dicisions who is going to want to referee inter-county or big club games.

Donal og Cusack more or less questioned Johnny Murphy's integrity and he should be reprimanded for it, I remember too after the drawn 2014 all Ireland final he spent a good while criticizing the referee scrutinizing little and small things even though the referee overall had a good final. Maybe Donal og should take up refereeing it might not be as easy as he thinks and maybe he might also appreciate the difficult job they have and he won't be so quick to criticise."
I think referees should be given an opportunity to defend and outline their decisions and positions, it's become an almost national pass time to scapegoat referees and blame them for the ineptitude of many county teams, players, managers etc.
Moving forward these are some recommendations that should be considered.
a) just like the managers they should be allowed to do a pre and post match interview on RTÉ.
b) be micked up and explain their decisions during the games- like American football.
c) The referees, linesman and umpires be brought on the Sunday game after big matches and discuss their officiating to the panel.

Galway4ever (Galway) - Posts: 209 - 24/11/2020 00:44:40    2314427

Link

Replying To KillingFields:  "It would also change how referees are thought of. They are known but nobody knows personality of refs or see's the good parts of a referee.
The only people a ref should be explaining any decisions after a game to are an appointed assessor or a coach of a team involved(within reason) and with a coach only on the specifics of rules.."
If handled properly it could be a positive thing for referees. I'm not saying that the Referee should necessarily be grilled after every game but if there was some explanation (from Official GAA) then that might help. Referees are human and make Mistakes so there has to be some tolerance for that. But referees that are constantly below the standard required should not get the Big games. IMO the ref in the Ulster game made 3 or4 errors on Sunday. Often these Errors cancel out but on Sunday they all went against Cavan. If there was some explanation of them that might go some way to alleviating the frustration of Cavan supporters.
The Idea of a referee Pundit being employed to look at specific issues has some merit. I honestly don't Rate Sean Cavanagh as a pundit on football matters and he hasn't a clue about refereeing. But I was very surprised that there was so little analysis of the Referees performance on Sunday given the huge focus on the Cavan Penalty the week before. Similarly very little made of the Tipp Goal that was Disallowed. Maybe the attitude would have been different if Cavan And Tipp had lost. If that's the case then it's too late - The whole idea is to improve the standard of ~Refereeing and for transparency across the board.

Final Shot - Neither of the two referees I have mentioned should be involved for the remainder of the season - and that also goes for the linesman in Ulster who appears to have called the 2nd black Card.

indaknownow (Offaly) - Posts: 112 - 24/11/2020 10:17:18    2314504

Link

Replying To DUALSUPPORT:  "No referees shouldn't be put on the spot on television, maybe RTE should have former referees as pundits that could analyse why different frees were given or why yellow or red cards were issued for certain offences. The GAA are crying out for referees if they are told they have to go on television after a match to explain their dicisions who is going to want to referee inter-county or big club games.

Donal og Cusack more or less questioned Johnny Murphy's integrity and he should be reprimanded for it, I remember too after the drawn 2014 all Ireland final he spent a good while criticizing the referee scrutinizing little and small things even though the referee overall had a good final. Maybe Donal og should take up refereeing it might not be as easy as he thinks and maybe he might also appreciate the difficult job they have and he won't be so quick to criticise."
What is Donal Og on about. Is he suggesting that any Limerick Hurling Person would prefer to meet Galway rather than Tipp. Of all the six remaining teams in the Championship last Saturday morning Tipp was probably the least side we would fear, allowing for Clare having all their players available to them.

Oldtourman (Limerick) - Posts: 4321 - 24/11/2020 11:17:44    2314545

Link

Very unfair refereeing in the Ulster final, 5 very bad calls against Cavan.

blueman1903 (Cavan) - Posts: 882 - 24/11/2020 12:01:06    2314584

Link

Replying To blueman1903:  "Very unfair refereeing in the Ulster final, 5 very bad calls against Cavan."
Donegal still couldn't beat us!!!!! And they were suggesting they could beat Dublin!! Hilarious

the creeler (Cavan) - Posts: 512 - 24/11/2020 12:09:51    2314596

Link

Replying To blueman1903:  "Very unfair refereeing in the Ulster final, 5 very bad calls against Cavan."
Donegal still couldn't beat us!!!!! And they were suggesting they could beat Dublin!! Hilarious

the creeler (Cavan) - Posts: 512 - 24/11/2020 12:11:37    2314600

Link

Replying To DUALSUPPORT:  "No referees shouldn't be put on the spot on television, maybe RTE should have former referees as pundits that could analyse why different frees were given or why yellow or red cards were issued for certain offences. The GAA are crying out for referees if they are told they have to go on television after a match to explain their dicisions who is going to want to referee inter-county or big club games.

Donal og Cusack more or less questioned Johnny Murphy's integrity and he should be reprimanded for it, I remember too after the drawn 2014 all Ireland final he spent a good while criticizing the referee scrutinizing little and small things even though the referee overall had a good final. Maybe Donal og should take up refereeing it might not be as easy as he thinks and maybe he might also appreciate the difficult job they have and he won't be so quick to criticise."
I too would be totally opposed to asking referees to explain their decisions publicly. They are answerable to their assessors and that's enough accountability.

On a related issue, Liam Sheedy's point about the appointment of referees is a valid one but it didn't come across well because of its timing after his team had lost. Anyway, it's not the first time this has happened. Last year Sean Cleere officiated at the Tipp-Wexford semi-final when his county was already in the final. I suspected at the time that perhaps those who appointed him expected Limerick to beat Kilkenny but it was a strange appointment. Only a few weeks ago Fergal Horgan took charge of the Limerick-Clare game when Tipperary were awaiting the winners, while Johnny Murphy's appointment for the Galway-Tipp game was similarly hard to understand, even though he did a fair and reasonable job. I just think there is already enough pressure on referees without putting them into a situation where some lazy commentators or disgruntled managers may accuse them of bias.

midlands (Westmeath) - Posts: 543 - 24/11/2020 15:38:28    2314752

Link

Replying To DUALSUPPORT:  "No referees shouldn't be put on the spot on television, maybe RTE should have former referees as pundits that could analyse why different frees were given or why yellow or red cards were issued for certain offences. The GAA are crying out for referees if they are told they have to go on television after a match to explain their dicisions who is going to want to referee inter-county or big club games.

Donal og Cusack more or less questioned Johnny Murphy's integrity and he should be reprimanded for it, I remember too after the drawn 2014 all Ireland final he spent a good while criticizing the referee scrutinizing little and small things even though the referee overall had a good final. Maybe Donal og should take up refereeing it might not be as easy as he thinks and maybe he might also appreciate the difficult job they have and he won't be so quick to criticise."
In 2014 drawn game Barry Kelly nearly gift wrapped an All Ireland for Tipp he made one of the worst calls at THE worst time on Brian Hogan. Fortunately for Kelly and Kilkenny Bubbles barely missed the free and it went to a replay. However Cusak question Murphy's integrity Sunday night and that should never happen. All refs, at inter county leve,l I believe go in to a game with the right intentions just like players however they can have a bad game.

gatha (Kilkenny) - Posts: 318 - 24/11/2020 16:35:18    2314784

Link

I honestly don't get the complaints over the second Cavan black card. Most people have been categorizing it as a "push".

Rule 5.12, under Category II Infractions - Cynical Behaviour
To deliberately collide with an opponent after he has played the ball away or for the purpose of taking him out of the movement of play

Eoin McHugh hand-passed the ball to Eoghan Bán Gallagher, and after the ball was gone, Madden ran into the back of him at full speed, leading with the forearm to McHugh's back. No attempt to play the ball. Only intent was to knock him to the ground (take him out of the movement of the play). You can categorize it as a just a "push", but I think that's a very rose-tinted view of what happened. He landed on top of him, like!

That kind of play has plagued GAA for years. You would regularly see the smarter/more cynical teams drag or knock down Ryan McHugh or Lee Keegan or Jack McCaffrey in their own half to take them out of the game. The problem isn't the decision by the ref on Sunday. The problem is other referees not enforcing that rule when they see it.

Texas (Donegal) - Posts: 163 - 24/11/2020 17:00:40    2314803

Link

Replying To Texas:  "I honestly don't get the complaints over the second Cavan black card. Most people have been categorizing it as a "push".

Rule 5.12, under Category II Infractions - Cynical Behaviour
To deliberately collide with an opponent after he has played the ball away or for the purpose of taking him out of the movement of play

Eoin McHugh hand-passed the ball to Eoghan Bán Gallagher, and after the ball was gone, Madden ran into the back of him at full speed, leading with the forearm to McHugh's back. No attempt to play the ball. Only intent was to knock him to the ground (take him out of the movement of the play). You can categorize it as a just a "push", but I think that's a very rose-tinted view of what happened. He landed on top of him, like!

That kind of play has plagued GAA for years. You would regularly see the smarter/more cynical teams drag or knock down Ryan McHugh or Lee Keegan or Jack McCaffrey in their own half to take them out of the game. The problem isn't the decision by the ref on Sunday. The problem is other referees not enforcing that rule when they see it."
I took a few looks at this again because what you describe wasn't what I remember happening.
What actually happened was that the Cavan player attempted to Shoulder McHugh as he passed the ball. McHugh ducked /leaned forward and the Cavan guy went behind him and caught him on the back rather than shoulder to shoulder. His left arm was out trying to block the pass but because McHugh had leaned forward he caught him with it.(to the front) At worst it was rough play (Yellow card). I think it's a prime example of a ref( or rather a linesman) who never played the game and doesn't understand the difference between bad timing and a deliberate cynical foul. There was no forearm to McHughs Back as you suggest. Poor Call by the officials. You sound a bit like the Kilkenny boys last year trying to Argue Against Richie Hogans sending off for His Elbowing incident.
And speaking of Elbows What did you think of the Donegal lad that Elbowed the Galligan fella in the Eye and had no card of any colour produced?
All the big calls went for Donegal on Sunday - Officials had a poor day - End of!!

indaknownow (Offaly) - Posts: 112 - 24/11/2020 17:58:27    2314840

Link

Replying To gatha:  "In 2014 drawn game Barry Kelly nearly gift wrapped an All Ireland for Tipp he made one of the worst calls at THE worst time on Brian Hogan. Fortunately for Kelly and Kilkenny Bubbles barely missed the free and it went to a replay. However Cusak question Murphy's integrity Sunday night and that should never happen. All refs, at inter county leve,l I believe go in to a game with the right intentions just like players however they can have a bad game."
First off, gatha, I fully agree with you that it's unacceptable to question Johnny Murphy's integrity, or that of any other referee for that matter. As regards the 2014 drawn final, I think I should speak up for the Westmeath referee, even if it is six years ago. If a referee deems something a foul then he must call it, regardless of whether it's the first or last minute of the game. I recall Cody still going on about this even after Kilkenny had won the replay. In an interview with John Fogarty of the Examiner he referred to the decision as "criminal" because it gave Tipp a chance to win the game. When asked if it should have been a free to Kilkenny he replied that "it could have been". Would he have called that a "criminal" decision? It was in the Tipperary half and would most likely have meant a Kilkenny victory. For what it's worth, I think Barry Kelly called that right, as he usually did in the course of a very distinguished career. Brian Hogan charged straight at Paudie Maher who simply stood his ground.

I'm a bit puzzled as to what you mean when you say "fortunately for Kelly and Kilkenny Bubbles barely missed the free". Would there have been repercussions for Kelly had Bubbles scored, and if so, what might they have been?

midlands (Westmeath) - Posts: 543 - 24/11/2020 19:49:28    2314922

Link

Replying To midlands:  "First off, gatha, I fully agree with you that it's unacceptable to question Johnny Murphy's integrity, or that of any other referee for that matter. As regards the 2014 drawn final, I think I should speak up for the Westmeath referee, even if it is six years ago. If a referee deems something a foul then he must call it, regardless of whether it's the first or last minute of the game. I recall Cody still going on about this even after Kilkenny had won the replay. In an interview with John Fogarty of the Examiner he referred to the decision as "criminal" because it gave Tipp a chance to win the game. When asked if it should have been a free to Kilkenny he replied that "it could have been". Would he have called that a "criminal" decision? It was in the Tipperary half and would most likely have meant a Kilkenny victory. For what it's worth, I think Barry Kelly called that right, as he usually did in the course of a very distinguished career. Brian Hogan charged straight at Paudie Maher who simply stood his ground.

I'm a bit puzzled as to what you mean when you say "fortunately for Kelly and Kilkenny Bubbles barely missed the free". Would there have been repercussions for Kelly had Bubbles scored, and if so, what might they have been?"
Fortunate because it was a ridiculous call if you look at the game you will see at least 3 times when a Tipp player put his head down and ran right into a Kilkenny player and the free was given to Tipp. Brian Hogan tried to avoid Maher. Maher stood his ground and flatten Hogan, which he was entitled to do. It was a no call no foul on either man. To say the time of a game has no bearing on a call is just naive. A good ref understands what is on the line and how a match should be determined. Loosing a hard fought sporting match on a soft or controversial free is not right for the players who put so much into it.

gatha (Kilkenny) - Posts: 318 - 24/11/2020 20:52:45    2314964

Link

Replying To midlands:  "First off, gatha, I fully agree with you that it's unacceptable to question Johnny Murphy's integrity, or that of any other referee for that matter. As regards the 2014 drawn final, I think I should speak up for the Westmeath referee, even if it is six years ago. If a referee deems something a foul then he must call it, regardless of whether it's the first or last minute of the game. I recall Cody still going on about this even after Kilkenny had won the replay. In an interview with John Fogarty of the Examiner he referred to the decision as "criminal" because it gave Tipp a chance to win the game. When asked if it should have been a free to Kilkenny he replied that "it could have been". Would he have called that a "criminal" decision? It was in the Tipperary half and would most likely have meant a Kilkenny victory. For what it's worth, I think Barry Kelly called that right, as he usually did in the course of a very distinguished career. Brian Hogan charged straight at Paudie Maher who simply stood his ground.

I'm a bit puzzled as to what you mean when you say "fortunately for Kelly and Kilkenny Bubbles barely missed the free". Would there have been repercussions for Kelly had Bubbles scored, and if so, what might they have been?"
Repercussions would have been he would have been criticized that's all nothing more. As for him having a good game you must have missed the hurley being broken over Larkin's shoulder and Kelly gave a free out to Tipp or the time Larkin was blatantly pulled down 5 feet from Kelly he gave no free the ball was turned over and Noel McGrath scored a point. Kelley did not have a good game and fortunately his calls didn't cost anyone an All Ireland.

gatha (Kilkenny) - Posts: 318 - 24/11/2020 21:18:16    2314983

Link