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Goals - All But Dried Up ?

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Replying To royaldunne:  "I don't know if I could pull off the shorts these days. Actually I'd be more concerned about getting them on :)"
You'd need to go through six boxes of Gillette razors first before even compimplating your next move

jimbodub (Dublin) - Posts: 20004 - 12/11/2020 18:25:24    2308092

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Replying To realdub:  "I think it would just lead to more fouling."
Sky would have a field day with the slow-mo's..

jimbodub (Dublin) - Posts: 20004 - 12/11/2020 18:31:44    2308095

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Replying To omahant:  "The 2020 Munster SHC QF between Limerick & Clare produced 59 pts, but only one goal.

The 2020 Leinster SFC QF between Dublin & Westmeath produced 33 pts and no goals.

Should goals be worth more to get a better mix of scores ? Hurling, in particular, could benefit from teams searching for goals rather than simply popping over points from all angles and distances.

Ideally, how points per goal scored is an ideal ratio in either code ? Is it six, with scores like 2-12 in football, or 3-18 in hurling desired ?

If so, how many pts should a goal be worth ?
If four, it may move the needle in football, but
hurling may need a doubling to six !

To avoid the risk of having a match lead more easily overcome by two late goals of increased value, perhaps teams would be encouraged to mix it up more over the 70 minutes.

Comments welcome."
Sliotar is to light. Fellas able to score points from their own half makes less goal mouth action. Personally think the game would be more interesting with a hard sliotar.

sourmilk93 (Roscommon) - Posts: 563 - 12/11/2020 18:39:49    2308100

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Replying To royaldunne:  "I don't know if I could pull off the shorts these days. Actually I'd be more concerned about getting them on :)"
Haha I know the feeling, the lockdown hasn't been kind to me either!

We must go streaking at another championship game soon, just for the exercise like ;-)

Htaem (Meath) - Posts: 8579 - 12/11/2020 18:47:59    2308109

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Replying To jimbodub:  "You'd need to go through six boxes of Gillette razors first before even compimplating your next move"
I know lol

royaldunne (Meath) - Posts: 17031 - 12/11/2020 19:58:09    2308146

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Replying To Htaem:  "Haha I know the feeling, the lockdown hasn't been kind to me either!

We must go streaking at another championship game soon, just for the exercise like ;-)"
Exactly. But I need to lose a few pounds (ok stones ). Or they would need a very wide angle lens. :)

royaldunne (Meath) - Posts: 17031 - 12/11/2020 20:00:17    2308148

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Replying To Cockney_Cat:  "A classic case of cherry picking stats to back a dubious theory.

"The 2020 Munster SHC QF between Limerick & Clare produced 59 pts, but only one goal...Should goals be worth more to get a better mix of scores ? Hurling, in particular, could benefit from teams searching for goals rather than simply popping over points from all angles and distances."

The Munster SHC semi-final between Limerick & Tipperary produced 55 pts including 5 goals.
The Leinster SHC semi-final between Kilkenny & Dublin produced 57 pts including 5 goals."
So, considering all matches, has there been a negative trend ?
Should anything be done about it ?

omahant (USA) - Posts: 1823 - 12/11/2020 20:49:54    2308165

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questions? got any ? real ones?

Breezy (Limerick) - Posts: 1106 - 12/11/2020 23:30:42    2308219

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Another goalless match today, in the Munster SHC final no less.

If two late goals for one side were worth more, would both teams have tried harder to score one or more goals during the match ?

omahant (USA) - Posts: 1823 - 16/11/2020 02:53:27    2309757

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Replying To Cockney_Cat:  "A classic case of cherry picking stats to back a dubious theory.

"The 2020 Munster SHC QF between Limerick & Clare produced 59 pts, but only one goal...Should goals be worth more to get a better mix of scores ? Hurling, in particular, could benefit from teams searching for goals rather than simply popping over points from all angles and distances."

The Munster SHC semi-final between Limerick & Tipperary produced 55 pts including 5 goals.
The Leinster SHC semi-final between Kilkenny & Dublin produced 57 pts including 5 goals."
True. And if goals were made worth more points, say 4 or 6, would it not encourage teams in both football and hurling to get even more defensive to keep them out?

Viking66 (Wexford) - Posts: 1002 - 16/11/2020 20:40:29    2310376

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Replying To omahant:  "Another goalless match today, in the Munster SHC final no less.

If two late goals for one side were worth more, would both teams have tried harder to score one or more goals during the match ?"
But the 2 goals for Kilkenny won them the match, so they've already got sufficient value.

And yeah, no goals in the Munster final, but a load of incredible points (some of the best point taking I've seen in years has happened in this championship). Is that not enjoyable? When you have players with that kind of point taking ability, it doesn't make sense to go for goal. You could spend 5 minutes trying to engineer a goal and get nowhere, while you could have had 3 points in the same period, due to the ability that these forwards (and midfielders, and backs...) have. Can we not just enjoy it for what it is?

Marlon_JD (Tipperary) - Posts: 1774 - 16/11/2020 20:53:40    2310391

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Replying To Marlon_JD:  "But the 2 goals for Kilkenny won them the match, so they've already got sufficient value.

And yeah, no goals in the Munster final, but a load of incredible points (some of the best point taking I've seen in years has happened in this championship). Is that not enjoyable? When you have players with that kind of point taking ability, it doesn't make sense to go for goal. You could spend 5 minutes trying to engineer a goal and get nowhere, while you could have had 3 points in the same period, due to the ability that these forwards (and midfielders, and backs...) have. Can we not just enjoy it for what it is?"
Tony Kelly

Viking66 (Wexford) - Posts: 1002 - 16/11/2020 21:09:59    2310402

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Replying To Marlon_JD:  "But the 2 goals for Kilkenny won them the match, so they've already got sufficient value.

And yeah, no goals in the Munster final, but a load of incredible points (some of the best point taking I've seen in years has happened in this championship). Is that not enjoyable? When you have players with that kind of point taking ability, it doesn't make sense to go for goal. You could spend 5 minutes trying to engineer a goal and get nowhere, while you could have had 3 points in the same period, due to the ability that these forwards (and midfielders, and backs...) have. Can we not just enjoy it for what it is?"
Yes, but too much of a good thing can be nausiating (e.g. chocolate). I just don't want point scoring to be too frequent (like basketball). Those 5 mins you mention engineering a goal then requires a higher reward (this is why rugby league drives go for tries and not drop goals). An argument could be made that a hurling goal should be worth more than a football one.

omahant (USA) - Posts: 1823 - 17/11/2020 17:25:14    2310736

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Replying To omahant:  "Yes, but too much of a good thing can be nausiating (e.g. chocolate). I just don't want point scoring to be too frequent (like basketball). Those 5 mins you mention engineering a goal then requires a higher reward (this is why rugby league drives go for tries and not drop goals). An argument could be made that a hurling goal should be worth more than a football one."
Well I guess thats where we differ, I'd much prefer a high scoring game than a low scoring one, and I can't get over the point scoring I'm seeing this year, could watch that stuff all day.
And it's not as if goals are drying up. Tipp scored 15 goals in 8 games in last years championship, while also racking up high point tallies (3-25 in the final). And they needed all of them.

When it comes to things like basic rule enforcement, I think there's alot about hurling that could be improved. But when it comes to the game itself, it should just be left to evolve organically. Yeah, if teams drop back a sweeper and pack their defenses, it's going to make goals harder to come by. So then what eventually happens? Teams start taking points from further out the field. So then what eventually happens? Defenses start pushing up further to close down on where the points are now being taken from, opening up more space for forwards to run at defenses, and creating more goal scoring opportunities.

There's an ebb and flow to how the games progress, but they balance themselves out if they're let.

Marlon_JD (Tipperary) - Posts: 1774 - 17/11/2020 18:27:39    2310764

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I wish there was more of that 'ebb and flo' in the football code as well.

As a Corkman, I still remember how I enjoyed us beating Kilk in a low scoring grind in the '99 AI SHC Final.

Don't get wrong, those accute angle points cause the hair on the back of my neck to stand - I just don't want to see one every minute.

Over 70 mins, about 23 combined scores (1 every 3 mins) that includes say 4 goals - so, 2-10 to 2-9 say, would be an ideal score for me, in either code.

omahant (USA) - Posts: 1823 - 17/11/2020 23:43:29    2310908

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Antrim hurlers seem to have no problem scoring goals. 9 goals in 3 games, I think.

keeper7 (Longford) - Posts: 3859 - 18/11/2020 10:01:21    2310951

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Replying To omahant:  "I wish there was more of that 'ebb and flo' in the football code as well.

As a Corkman, I still remember how I enjoyed us beating Kilk in a low scoring grind in the '99 AI SHC Final.

Don't get wrong, those accute angle points cause the hair on the back of my neck to stand - I just don't want to see one every minute.

Over 70 mins, about 23 combined scores (1 every 3 mins) that includes say 4 goals - so, 2-10 to 2-9 say, would be an ideal score for me, in either code."
2.10 to 2.9 would be a horrible score in senior intercounty hurling.
For a long time 20 to 22 points would win most championship matches but now you will probably need 30 points to be competitive. We have lost some of the physicality from the game and replaced it with accurate long striking.
Like in everything else a balance is needed and I think at the moment we have gone too far towards the "open" game.

Westfester (Limerick) - Posts: 905 - 18/11/2020 20:21:46    2311200

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Managements don't wanna concede goals so often play one or even two sweepers. However, it's totally counterproductive if the opposition is knocking over 30-odd points.

keeper7 (Longford) - Posts: 3859 - 18/11/2020 22:25:49    2311267

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