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How I would rank the remaining sides in this knock out All-Ireland championship.
1 Dublin
2 Mayo
3 Donegal
4 Galway
5 Meath
6 Armagh
7 Kildare
8 Cork
9 Cavan
10 Laois
11 Down
12 Tipperary
With that in mind if it isn't a Mayo v Dublin final it will be a big surprise.
Yondu (UK) - Posts: 845 - 09/11/2020 17:37:06
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Replying To Yondu: "How I would rank the remaining sides in this knock out All-Ireland championship.
1 Dublin
2 Mayo
3 Donegal
4 Galway
5 Meath
6 Armagh
7 Kildare
8 Cork
9 Cavan
10 Laois
11 Down
12 Tipperary
With that in mind if it isn't a Mayo v Dublin final it will be a big surprise." Cork behind Kildare & Armagh ?
Mmmmm , no , afraid not .
catch22 (USA) - Posts: 2148 - 09/11/2020 19:15:10
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Replying To CiarraiMick: "With PK? I don't know. I'm in two minds. I have been critical of his over defensive style. We have class scoring forwards but are using defensive methods instead. Look I know nowadays a team needs workers too but I still want at least 4 scoring forwards. I presume Paul Geaney and James Ó Donoghue were injured as they did nt make panel but Ó Brien and Spillane should ve started. I believe it attack is the best form of defense so if Keane walked I won't be too upset." Not necessarily disagreeing with your opinions but I do think the forwards that did start yesterday, let Kerry down on the day. Maybe the set-up was too conservative but the two handy frees missed by DC plus his goal attempt when he should have taken a point (not saying that in hind-sight, not a goal chance). Also his failure to take a mark cost Kerry but he should have scored the point anyhow plus SOS's really poor effort from a first half free really cost Kerry. While Tommy Walsh's failure to contest the high ball leading to the goal was inexplicable, it would not have mattered if the Kerry forwards had converted the easiest of chances.
sligo joe (Dublin) - Posts: 678 - 09/11/2020 19:21:25
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Replying To Yondu: "How I would rank the remaining sides in this knock out All-Ireland championship.
1 Dublin
2 Mayo
3 Donegal
4 Galway
5 Meath
6 Armagh
7 Kildare
8 Cork
9 Cavan
10 Laois
11 Down
12 Tipperary
With that in mind if it isn't a Mayo v Dublin final it will be a big surprise." 1.Dublin 2.Donegal 3.Mayo 4.Galway5.Meath 6.Cork7.Armagh8.Kildare 9.Down.10.Cavan.11.Tipperary 12.Laois
CiarraiMick (Dublin) - Posts: 3675 - 09/11/2020 19:46:11
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Replying To Yondu: "How I would rank the remaining sides in this knock out All-Ireland championship.
1 Dublin
2 Mayo
3 Donegal
4 Galway
5 Meath
6 Armagh
7 Kildare
8 Cork
9 Cavan
10 Laois
11 Down
12 Tipperary
With that in mind if it isn't a Mayo v Dublin final it will be a big surprise." After the top 4 it's a bit of a toss up. Cork have beaten a top side unlike the others though so I would probably rank them a little higher. Cavan beat Monaghan as well so they probably deserve to be a little higher too.
HighKings (Meath) - Posts: 271 - 09/11/2020 19:59:16
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This old style knockout championship is brilliant and cruel at the same time but I suppose it always was brutal, do or die,
I'm sick of back doors and super 8's with dead rubber matches etc, with all the brains in the country you'd think we could figure out how to get the structure right,
the pre season stuff like McKenna cup have to go as well imo. Clubs have to be respected, club games were great this year and we still have our county final to play after Dec 19th lol.!!
I suppose the provincials will be hard to get rid off, someone mentioned a B championship for teams that get knocked out, like the way teams knocked out of the champions league go into the europa league in soccer, not a bad idea,
hard to see this Tailteann cup being a success, suppose it has to be tried, if we had that system in place this year would Cork have been in the Tailteann cup them being in div 3? Kerry probably wish they were this year!!
Tirchonaill1 (Donegal) - Posts: 2747 - 09/11/2020 21:11:51
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Replying To Tirchonaill1: "This old style knockout championship is brilliant and cruel at the same time but I suppose it always was brutal, do or die,
I'm sick of back doors and super 8's with dead rubber matches etc, with all the brains in the country you'd think we could figure out how to get the structure right,
the pre season stuff like McKenna cup have to go as well imo. Clubs have to be respected, club games were great this year and we still have our county final to play after Dec 19th lol.!!
I suppose the provincials will be hard to get rid off, someone mentioned a B championship for teams that get knocked out, like the way teams knocked out of the champions league go into the europa league in soccer, not a bad idea,
hard to see this Tailteann cup being a success, suppose it has to be tried, if we had that system in place this year would Cork have been in the Tailteann cup them being in div 3? Kerry probably wish they were this year!!" Qualifiers aren't great but they have given us some good games like Newbridge or Nowhere. The Super 8s were crap.
Rolo2010 (Donegal) - Posts: 738 - 09/11/2020 21:46:17
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Replying To Tirchonaill1: "This old style knockout championship is brilliant and cruel at the same time but I suppose it always was brutal, do or die,
I'm sick of back doors and super 8's with dead rubber matches etc, with all the brains in the country you'd think we could figure out how to get the structure right,
the pre season stuff like McKenna cup have to go as well imo. Clubs have to be respected, club games were great this year and we still have our county final to play after Dec 19th lol.!!
I suppose the provincials will be hard to get rid off, someone mentioned a B championship for teams that get knocked out, like the way teams knocked out of the champions league go into the europa league in soccer, not a bad idea,
hard to see this Tailteann cup being a success, suppose it has to be tried, if we had that system in place this year would Cork have been in the Tailteann cup them being in div 3? Kerry probably wish they were this year!!" I think if you got to your provincial final you would be in the Sam Maguire regardless of your league position.
s goldrick (Cavan) - Posts: 5518 - 09/11/2020 22:24:14
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Replying To s goldrick: "I think if you got to your provincial final you would be in the Sam Maguire regardless of your league position." I took a look at the 2019 championship and qualifiers would have looked like this if Tommy Murphy 2.0 were in.
Round 1: Monaghan, Fermanagh, Armagh, Tyrone, Mayo, Clare, Kildare, Laois, or Westmeath. A preliminary round would be needed to reduce the teams from 9 to 8.
Round 2: 4 Round 1 winners + Galway, Cavan, Meath, and Cork.
Quarter-Finals: 4 Round 2 winners + Provincial champions.
15 teams would have taken part in Tier 2.
Rolo2010 (Donegal) - Posts: 738 - 09/11/2020 23:50:41
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Replying To HighKings: "After the top 4 it's a bit of a toss up. Cork have beaten a top side unlike the others though so I would probably rank them a little higher. Cavan beat Monaghan as well so they probably deserve to be a little higher too." In reply to yourself and catch22. Ranking teams is judged on more than just 1 win against a Div 1 team. Cork was playing for a reason in div 3 this year and Cavan got relegated to Div 3.
Yondu (UK) - Posts: 845 - 10/11/2020 01:17:14
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This old style knockout championship is brilliant and cruel at the same time but I suppose it always was brutal, do or die,
I'm sick of back doors and super 8's with dead rubber matches etc, with all the brains in the country you'd think we could figure out how to get the structure right,
the pre season stuff like McKenna cup have to go as well imo. Clubs have to be respected, club games were great this year and we still have our county final to play after Dec 19th lol.!!
I suppose the provincials will be hard to get rid off, someone mentioned a B championship for teams that get knocked out, like the way teams knocked out of the champions league go into the europa league in soccer, not a bad idea,
hard to see this Tailteann cup being a success, suppose it has to be tried, if we had that system in place this year would Cork have been in the Tailteann cup them being in div 3? Kerry probably wish they were this year!!
Tirchonaill1 (Donegal) - Posts: 1004 - 09/11/2020 21:11:51 The main competition should be a league with ;playoffs at the end of it.
9-10 game league with playoffs at end with a straight knockout provincial cup and all ireland cup. Winners of the provincial cups rewarded with seeding in all ireland cup or given prize they otherwise wouldnt get for it.
Streamlining games has to happen. In normal years you have too few games on every weekend. make the time period it takes to play provincial championships and you can keep them. There is no reason to not have more games on each weekend which allows both more weekends for the additional games counties would play and more rest time and more time for club games
KillingFields (Limerick) - Posts: 3510 - 10/11/2020 09:16:02
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Replying To Rolo2010: "Qualifiers aren't great but they have given us some good games like Newbridge or Nowhere. The Super 8s were crap." Super 8s have been terrible. Of course there's a bias against to a certain extent being from Donegal as they've been unsuccessful in that round so far.
The main reason I'm not in favour is that rivalries should be protected. The Super 8s means more glamour games between big teams, but the problem is we shouldn't want more games between big teams. We want Dublin v Kerry to be a special occasion, a knockout semi-final or final. Now we're in a situation that there are two Champions v Champions matches in the Super 8s which are non-knockout. There's a good chance that the match is a dead rubber. Why bother? It kills rivalry. When you have a game that's a potential spectacle, protect it. Kerry only played Offaly 6 times ever, and all between 1969 and 1982 (1 semi, 4 finals and a replay). Two evenly matched teams and the matches meant more because they survived knockout football to get there. They were the best.
Despite their careers overlapping for 16 years, Muhammad Ali v Joe Frazier fought 3 times, 1971 1974 1975 and it is the most famous sporting rivalry ever. In professional wrestling, WWF kept Andre the Giant and Hulk Hogan separated for 4 years before their legendary title match at Wrestlemania III. The first time Brazil faced Germany/West Germany at a World Cup was in the 2002 final, the next chance Germany had for revenge was 12 years later when they embarrassed them in the Mineirazo 7-1 and went on to win the tournament!
I don't see positives for the top teams or the bottom teams. We're diluting potentially legendary footballing rivalries and we're ensuring that we'll never see a Fermanagh, or a Limerick make it to a semi-final again.
SurelyToGod (Donegal) - Posts: 377 - 10/11/2020 10:24:37
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Replying To SurelyToGod: "Super 8s have been terrible. Of course there's a bias against to a certain extent being from Donegal as they've been unsuccessful in that round so far.
The main reason I'm not in favour is that rivalries should be protected. The Super 8s means more glamour games between big teams, but the problem is we shouldn't want more games between big teams. We want Dublin v Kerry to be a special occasion, a knockout semi-final or final. Now we're in a situation that there are two Champions v Champions matches in the Super 8s which are non-knockout. There's a good chance that the match is a dead rubber. Why bother? It kills rivalry. When you have a game that's a potential spectacle, protect it. Kerry only played Offaly 6 times ever, and all between 1969 and 1982 (1 semi, 4 finals and a replay). Two evenly matched teams and the matches meant more because they survived knockout football to get there. They were the best.
Despite their careers overlapping for 16 years, Muhammad Ali v Joe Frazier fought 3 times, 1971 1974 1975 and it is the most famous sporting rivalry ever. In professional wrestling, WWF kept Andre the Giant and Hulk Hogan separated for 4 years before their legendary title match at Wrestlemania III. The first time Brazil faced Germany/West Germany at a World Cup was in the 2002 final, the next chance Germany had for revenge was 12 years later when they embarrassed them in the Mineirazo 7-1 and went on to win the tournament!
I don't see positives for the top teams or the bottom teams. We're diluting potentially legendary footballing rivalries and we're ensuring that we'll never see a Fermanagh, or a Limerick make it to a semi-final again." I get what you're saying. I just don't agree.
I don't see a problem with having Dublin v Kerry in a league phase and then have them playing in an All Ireland quarterfinal then after.
They're still only playing twice a season and there's a big difference between the league phase and the knockout phase.
Fermanagh have only ever played in an All Ireland semi final because of the qualifiers.
Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 4225 - 10/11/2020 13:05:43
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The super 8s are rubbish though.
If you have a group stage it should be at the start of the competition not bang in the middle. It's just weird the way they have it and kills a lot of the flow.
Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 4225 - 10/11/2020 13:07:16
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Replying To Whammo86: "I get what you're saying. I just don't agree.
I don't see a problem with having Dublin v Kerry in a league phase and then have them playing in an All Ireland quarterfinal then after.
They're still only playing twice a season and there's a big difference between the league phase and the knockout phase.
Fermanagh have only ever played in an All Ireland semi final because of the qualifiers." Dublin and Kerry already play in a League. Just hold it in the spring/summer months. Knockout football should be retained and the GAA are taking the wrong approach here. They are focusing on championship structures instead asking themselves why they sat back over the last ten years and let a massive gap open up after the 90s/2000s when the gap was narrowing. People talk about a divide but that only exists between Dublin and other top 4 or 5 teams in the country. Remember Dublin gave Roscommon an awful hammering in the Super 8s.
Rolo2010 (Donegal) - Posts: 738 - 10/11/2020 14:25:01
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Super 8s have been terrible. Of course there's a bias against to a certain extent being from Donegal as they've been unsuccessful in that round so far.
The main reason I'm not in favour is that rivalries should be protected. The Super 8s means more glamour games between big teams, but the problem is we shouldn't want more games between big teams. We want Dublin v Kerry to be a special occasion, a knockout semi-final or final. Now we're in a situation that there are two Champions v Champions matches in the Super 8s which are non-knockout. There's a good chance that the match is a dead rubber. Why bother? It kills rivalry. When you have a game that's a potential spectacle, protect it. Kerry only played Offaly 6 times ever, and all between 1969 and 1982 (1 semi, 4 finals and a replay). Two evenly matched teams and the matches meant more because they survived knockout football to get there. They were the best.
Despite their careers overlapping for 16 years, Muhammad Ali v Joe Frazier fought 3 times, 1971 1974 1975 and it is the most famous sporting rivalry ever. In professional wrestling, WWF kept Andre the Giant and Hulk Hogan separated for 4 years before their legendary title match at Wrestlemania III. The first time Brazil faced Germany/West Germany at a World Cup was in the 2002 final, the next chance Germany had for revenge was 12 years later when they embarrassed them in the Mineirazo 7-1 and went on to win the tournament!
I don't see positives for the top teams or the bottom teams. We're diluting potentially legendary footballing rivalries and we're ensuring that we'll never see a Fermanagh, or a Limerick make it to a semi-final again.
SurelyToGod (Donegal) - Posts: 180 - 10/11/2020 10:24:37I wouldnt call them terrible but rivalries have been protected. How have they not?
The super 8s havent stopped any rivalries and in all the years of the super 8s how many dead rubbers have their been.
You cant compare boxing to a team sport and you certainly cant compare scripted bloody wrestling....
KillingFields (Limerick) - Posts: 3510 - 10/11/2020 14:39:12
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Replying To Whammo86: "The super 8s are rubbish though.
If you have a group stage it should be at the start of the competition not bang in the middle. It's just weird the way they have it and kills a lot of the flow." I agree 100% Whammo, I always found the idea of a random group stage in the middle of a championship bizarre (although I know the reason was to try and milk more money).
I honestly think the Super 8s are ridiculous and other than the Meath games last year I didn't bother watching them!
Htaem (Meath) - Posts: 8657 - 10/11/2020 14:48:49
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The only good thing about the Super8s has been moving late summer championship games to all the different county grounds. Great boost for those towns and adds a bit of magic to those games I find.
JoeSoap (Donegal) - Posts: 1432 - 10/11/2020 14:58:02
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Replying To KillingFields: "Super 8s have been terrible. Of course there's a bias against to a certain extent being from Donegal as they've been unsuccessful in that round so far.
The main reason I'm not in favour is that rivalries should be protected. The Super 8s means more glamour games between big teams, but the problem is we shouldn't want more games between big teams. We want Dublin v Kerry to be a special occasion, a knockout semi-final or final. Now we're in a situation that there are two Champions v Champions matches in the Super 8s which are non-knockout. There's a good chance that the match is a dead rubber. Why bother? It kills rivalry. When you have a game that's a potential spectacle, protect it. Kerry only played Offaly 6 times ever, and all between 1969 and 1982 (1 semi, 4 finals and a replay). Two evenly matched teams and the matches meant more because they survived knockout football to get there. They were the best.
Despite their careers overlapping for 16 years, Muhammad Ali v Joe Frazier fought 3 times, 1971 1974 1975 and it is the most famous sporting rivalry ever. In professional wrestling, WWF kept Andre the Giant and Hulk Hogan separated for 4 years before their legendary title match at Wrestlemania III. The first time Brazil faced Germany/West Germany at a World Cup was in the 2002 final, the next chance Germany had for revenge was 12 years later when they embarrassed them in the Mineirazo 7-1 and went on to win the tournament!
I don't see positives for the top teams or the bottom teams. We're diluting potentially legendary footballing rivalries and we're ensuring that we'll never see a Fermanagh, or a Limerick make it to a semi-final again.
SurelyToGod (Donegal) - Posts: 180 - 10/11/2020 10:24:37I wouldnt call them terrible but rivalries have been protected. How have they not?
The super 8s havent stopped any rivalries and in all the years of the super 8s how many dead rubbers have their been.
You cant compare boxing to a team sport and you certainly cant compare scripted bloody wrestling...." Because it means that, even if we keep footballing ability to one side, it would be likely to see more meetings between two arbitrary counties like Dublin and Kerry in 20 years of the Super 8s format than we would in 20 years of the qualifier knockout quarter final format, but we would see the exact same number of finals contested between the two. When I say protect rivalries, I mean don't dilute rivalries with less meaningful championship encounters. I understand it's a bit silly to draw comparisons to boxing and professional wrestling, but I do so only to point out the theatrical merits of both gaelic rivalries and scripted entertainment. The All Ireland is a man-made unseeded tournament. We manufacture the format and brackets, just like wrestling and even boxing is scripted to keep rivals apart until title fights to add to the entertainment value.
In 2018, Galway had already booked their place in the semi finals before their final game at home v Monaghan. Monaghan won the match against easily against a Galway team who didn't commit much. dumping Kerry out of Championship in the process rendering Kerry's win over Kildare pointless. Dublin had already booked their place in the semi final before playing Roscommon in the other group, and Roscommon we out of reach of qualifying so this match was a dead rubber.
In 2019, Kerry v Meath was a dead rubber as both Kerry had qualified and Meath were eliminated before ball thrown in. Both Cork v Roscommon, and Dublin v Tyrone were dead rubbers in the other group.
8.33% of matches certified dead rubbers in 2018 but due to Galway having no reason to push themselves v Monaghan it meant both the final matches of that group were also meaningless.
25% of matches certified dead rubbers in 2019.
SurelyToGod (Donegal) - Posts: 377 - 10/11/2020 15:46:13
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Replying To Htaem: "I agree 100% Whammo, I always found the idea of a random group stage in the middle of a championship bizarre (although I know the reason was to try and milk more money).
I honestly think the Super 8s are ridiculous and other than the Meath games last year I didn't bother watching them!" Yeah, I think they wanted to replicate the league in the championship.
It doesn't really work though because there's no promotion or relegation and also that the teams that qualify aren't actually the best 8 teams in the country, given the knockout nature of the championships.
Before this season I'd thought that the Provincial championships were a bit of a relic of the past and maybe they could be done away with.
Certainly this year has made me think otherwise.
I do think the league is a well structured competition and I kind of think it's a shame that it doesn't have a bigger role to play in determining the eventual best team in the country.
Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 4225 - 10/11/2020 20:04:23
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