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Can Success Be Bought With Money?

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Replying To Tirchonaill1:  "All this quoting is ridiculous, it puts me off reading the response, I usually just skip to the next post that's readable.
The mantra from some Kerry posters seems very bitter, ok Dublin has a massive population compared to the rest of us and they have the advantage of having Croke park in their own back yard, that has always been the case, they have a fantastic bunch of players now for years and no doubt money helps but they still needed the talented players,
Kerry moaned about Tyrone and then Donegal, these Ulster teams were not playing the great game of pure football supposedly that Kerry played, truth is Kerry were as cynical a team when it suited them as any we met, of course they have their ex players in the media spinning their mantra yerra yerra,
Anytime we played Dublin they never b*t*hed about it win lose or draw and their fans were always very decent people to be around, always good craic with them, some of the Kerry fans seemed to think no other team had the right to be their but themselves.
as Corporal Jones used to say on Dad's army 'they don't like it up em'"
Aye we're cynical at times the same as all other team and that's a fact, we definitely don't like it up us as you put it or maybe some do but that's their own business.

Yes we think it's our god given right to win the allireland every year as thats our tradition and the way we've been brought up to think and personally I think it's a good way to be.

As John B Keane once said a kerryman with an inferiority complex is a kerryman who thinks he's only as good as everyone else.

KingdomBoy1 (Kerry) - Posts: 14092 - 14/10/2020 14:19:14    2297562

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And there we have it....!
No yerra yerra there......

Fionn (Dublin) - Posts: 4748 - 14/10/2020 15:30:07    2297587

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Back to the question at hand.

I actually do think 200m spent well would give Leitrim a chance at competing.

It's a hell of a lot of money like.

The county would be able to develop more pitches, you'd be able to have maybe another bubble pitch. Multiple indoor and outdoor pitches to make sure time spent playing but the kids wasn't a limiting factor.

It'd be able to run a football academy for a prolonged period of time.

You'd be able to employ around 30 full time coaches for about 1m a year. That's 2 or 3 coaches per year group right they way up to under 17. Those guys would be specialised in developing structured improvements to players right the way through their development.

Academy teams would have the resources to travel to play regular high quality matches against teams outside the country.

I'm thinking about Barcelona's La Masia's academy and how they're able to regularly produce some of the most talented players in the world from a relatively small catchment area. On a smaller scale it's feasible that a county with that amount of financial resources could develop enough top quality players to compete right at the top of the game.

Monaghan have been competitive for a prolonged period at roughly twice Leitrim's population without those sorts of enormous financial help.

Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 4614 - 15/10/2020 17:02:57    2297831

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Replying To Whammo86:  "Back to the question at hand.

I actually do think 200m spent well would give Leitrim a chance at competing.

It's a hell of a lot of money like.

The county would be able to develop more pitches, you'd be able to have maybe another bubble pitch. Multiple indoor and outdoor pitches to make sure time spent playing but the kids wasn't a limiting factor.

It'd be able to run a football academy for a prolonged period of time.

You'd be able to employ around 30 full time coaches for about 1m a year. That's 2 or 3 coaches per year group right they way up to under 17. Those guys would be specialised in developing structured improvements to players right the way through their development.

Academy teams would have the resources to travel to play regular high quality matches against teams outside the country.

I'm thinking about Barcelona's La Masia's academy and how they're able to regularly produce some of the most talented players in the world from a relatively small catchment area. On a smaller scale it's feasible that a county with that amount of financial resources could develop enough top quality players to compete right at the top of the game.

Monaghan have been competitive for a prolonged period at roughly twice Leitrim's population without those sorts of enormous financial help."
When you look at GDF funding to head of population, both Monaghan and Leitrim are always top per head, counties that have small populations are looked after really well by the GAA financially pro rata.

That said, per head is a bit crude when looking at GDF, you'd want to look at birth rates up to minor, in my opinion, don't think the GAA do to be honest.

TheUsername (Dublin) - Posts: 4529 - 15/10/2020 20:41:32    2297881

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Honesty is the best policy.....when there is money in it ?
This great quote always comes to mind when I think of the experience of watching those who crave money in the GAA and brought us to where we are today. The money paid to managers and support staff has corrupted the organisation Those getting paid don't give a damn about anyone else or sports development in the GAA. It's a handy conduit to a quick buck.
Look at the facilities in Derry City and Celtic Park and the population. Why was 1993 our only success when a good many of those who starred on that team are possibly millionaires ?
Put the money into coaching, games development and grass pitches.
Money can buy success but does it have to be a corrupted success like what we are seeing with top teams at all levels.

IssacBall (Derry) - Posts: 51 - 31/10/2020 12:12:33    2303290

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Replying To IssacBall:  "Honesty is the best policy.....when there is money in it ?
This great quote always comes to mind when I think of the experience of watching those who crave money in the GAA and brought us to where we are today. The money paid to managers and support staff has corrupted the organisation Those getting paid don't give a damn about anyone else or sports development in the GAA. It's a handy conduit to a quick buck.
Look at the facilities in Derry City and Celtic Park and the population. Why was 1993 our only success when a good many of those who starred on that team are possibly millionaires ?
Put the money into coaching, games development and grass pitches.
Money can buy success but does it have to be a corrupted success like what we are seeing with top teams at all levels."
Corrupt a bit ott, devalued perhaps.

supersub15 (Carlow) - Posts: 3330 - 31/10/2020 13:48:33    2303310

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Replying To supersub15:  "Corrupt a bit ott, devalued perhaps."
In terms of individual players I guess success opens up employment/career opportunities especially when those players win their counties first All Ireland. I don't think money was as big a factor back in the 90's in terms of success.

There was a very interestig radio interview with Martin McHugh during the week. He talked about having a cup of tea and a chat with a Kerry offical at a recent league game. Kerry now have full time strength and conditioning experts and their training facilities are reported to be as good if not better than some of the professional sports teams in England. When you read about Tyrone's centre of excellence, Roscommon's plans; money in Dublin GAA and the money generated from Mayo international supporters for example it shows there are now 5 or 6 super powers at the top of the GAA inter county scene.

All the top counties generate enough money, have the full time personnel and facilities to compete against each other but the big problem which wasn't evident in the 90's is how the other break into that group. If a county like Derry unearth a squad of top quality players they probably won't have the finance to consistently compete with these superpower counties; in the 90's they could win national titles but it takes a lot more than good players these days sadly.

sam1884 (UK) - Posts: 999 - 31/10/2020 14:40:33    2303315

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Replying To KingdomBoy1:  "I'd say give Jim McGuinness 5 million euros and 5 years and he'd win an allireland with Leitrim.

Jim Gavin could probably do it in the same time frame but he'd probably need 50 million euros :-0"
why are kerrymen SO bitter?

Stmunnsriver (Wexford) - Posts: 3026 - 31/10/2020 16:04:37    2303392

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Replying To Stmunnsriver:  "why are kerrymen SO bitter?"
Ah they're gas men, even the great Jim McGuinness couldn't swing that with Leitrim, sorry Leitrim lads :D

realdub (Dublin) - Posts: 8821 - 31/10/2020 16:14:37    2303404

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You can't train a donkey to be a race horse

Plenty of counties have big money and have invested very heavily in giving themselves their best chance

This idea of fairness is never really broadly looked at and it gets skewed to suit an agenda

Purposefully of course.. always best to "shout look over there" while you're fleecing others

jimbodub (Dublin) - Posts: 20763 - 31/10/2020 16:28:13    2303411

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Replying To sam1884:  "In terms of individual players I guess success opens up employment/career opportunities especially when those players win their counties first All Ireland. I don't think money was as big a factor back in the 90's in terms of success.

There was a very interestig radio interview with Martin McHugh during the week. He talked about having a cup of tea and a chat with a Kerry offical at a recent league game. Kerry now have full time strength and conditioning experts and their training facilities are reported to be as good if not better than some of the professional sports teams in England. When you read about Tyrone's centre of excellence, Roscommon's plans; money in Dublin GAA and the money generated from Mayo international supporters for example it shows there are now 5 or 6 super powers at the top of the GAA inter county scene.

All the top counties generate enough money, have the full time personnel and facilities to compete against each other but the big problem which wasn't evident in the 90's is how the other break into that group. If a county like Derry unearth a squad of top quality players they probably won't have the finance to consistently compete with these superpower counties; in the 90's they could win national titles but it takes a lot more than good players these days sadly."
We have 1 full time strength and conditioning coach ( Jason McGahan) and he's only in his second year with us.

We do have a state of the art centre of excellence but it's not finished yet.

1 of the biggest problems facing country teams is our best talents been coaxed to Oz, country teams can't afford to lose even 1 top class player if there is a challenge to be put on dublin reign.

KingdomBoy1 (Kerry) - Posts: 14092 - 31/10/2020 16:32:51    2303416

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Replying To KingdomBoy1:  "We have 1 full time strength and conditioning coach ( Jason McGahan) and he's only in his second year with us.

We do have a state of the art centre of excellence but it's not finished yet.

1 of the biggest problems facing country teams is our best talents been coaxed to Oz, country teams can't afford to lose even 1 top class player if there is a challenge to be put on dublin reign."
True Aussie rules is a problem; look at the difference McKenna has made to Tyrone already since he returned. It's not a critcism of Kerry sorry; McHugh's interview was interesting in the sense he believes money is required to compete at the top level now which is hard to argue against. Even having one full time strength and conditioning expert working out of a centre of excellence similar or better to professional sports is significant compared to counties outside the top 3 or 4 who wouldn't have the finance for that. McHugh said Kerry officals spent time at the likes of Leeds when planning the centre; not sure if this is true? This sort of preparation probably brings you the prep required to compete against the other super powers but doesn't guarantee you All Ireland's etc as there is the same personnel/facilities in the other top counties.

What is does do though is close the door on the counties sitting further back; even if they produce 20 top players which teams have done before; getting those teams upto a conditioning, preparation level to beat the top teams in championships will be very difficult; it's why we're starting to see most of the top 5 in the country edge further and further away from the rest - 4 or so of those will be in a position to compete for the big prize as Dublin fall into the pack.

I think you can start to link the top Div 1 counties to the finance, facilities and personnel they have got compared to those sitting further back; trying to make an impact. For the purposes of this thread I don't think money buys you success but I do think it's required to put you in a position to compete and try to reach your potential.

sam1884 (UK) - Posts: 999 - 31/10/2020 17:30:41    2303458

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Replying To sam1884:  "True Aussie rules is a problem; look at the difference McKenna has made to Tyrone already since he returned. It's not a critcism of Kerry sorry; McHugh's interview was interesting in the sense he believes money is required to compete at the top level now which is hard to argue against. Even having one full time strength and conditioning expert working out of a centre of excellence similar or better to professional sports is significant compared to counties outside the top 3 or 4 who wouldn't have the finance for that. McHugh said Kerry officals spent time at the likes of Leeds when planning the centre; not sure if this is true? This sort of preparation probably brings you the prep required to compete against the other super powers but doesn't guarantee you All Ireland's etc as there is the same personnel/facilities in the other top counties.

What is does do though is close the door on the counties sitting further back; even if they produce 20 top players which teams have done before; getting those teams upto a conditioning, preparation level to beat the top teams in championships will be very difficult; it's why we're starting to see most of the top 5 in the country edge further and further away from the rest - 4 or so of those will be in a position to compete for the big prize as Dublin fall into the pack.

I think you can start to link the top Div 1 counties to the finance, facilities and personnel they have got compared to those sitting further back; trying to make an impact. For the purposes of this thread I don't think money buys you success but I do think it's required to put you in a position to compete and try to reach your potential."
Ya you make some excellent points there, a full time S&C coach can only be good and does widen the gap to a lot of teams, although it'll be interesting to see will it have a massive effect on our hurlers, I read somewhere lately ( I dont know if it's true) that dublin have had a full time S&C coach with 12 years now.

Makenna is unreal since he came back from Oz, itl be interesting to see how Conor glass gets on with Derry as well.

KingdomBoy1 (Kerry) - Posts: 14092 - 31/10/2020 21:23:49    2303613

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Replying To Rosineri1:  "over the years a few teams in London have tried to buy their way to the London senior title and have failed and have ended up struggling. Other clubs who invest in a long term plans have been much more successful and are still thriving.
For long term success you need to invest the money in facilities, coaching, building your club county, a well organised board will develop in thrive. Whereas if you have a poor board and throw them a load of money they will just look at quick fixes which long term will not help."
Exactly nearly all of the weaker counties have poor Co Boards who have been there for donkeys yrs and wouldn't have a clue how to use the money. It's no coincidence that the Dublin Kerry Kilkenny Tyrone and a few more all have excellent people running their County Boards who see that their teams get everything they want.

dubarra (Wicklow) - Posts: 541 - 01/11/2020 09:07:40    2303689

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Replying To Stmunnsriver:  "can money really buy u sucess if u dont have the population? if some lad died in say america and left say carlow [or leitrim
gaa 200 million to win a senior all ireland in hurling or football in 10 years could they?"]If spent correctly it will certainly improve u. But u need a vision and patience.

Hiring coaches for all schools/clubs would bring up the standard up no end. Over 20 years you would see great results. The standard at all levels would be raised and then it would become the norm.

U are still going to struggle to a certain extent against the big population centres as they will always on average have more of those generational type players but u will be competitive and when things go ur way u will win things.

People complain about the Dubs, and they do have money and population, but they could easily have wasted it. They really spent it wisely at grass roots. A lot of counties have money and waste money. Spending it on stadiums etc.

Spending on improving the standards should be like building a house......start at the bottom.

Foundation is coaching & facilities (pitches & balls) for all the kids and schools at all levels
Elite Coaching older kids
Elite Coaching county teams

The problem is everyone wants success overnight.

The really small population centres will always struggle. Monaghan is not huge and always seems to be at the top table. I wonder what they are doing?

Mayonman (Galway) - Posts: 1928 - 05/11/2020 09:41:41    2305258

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Replying To Mayonman:  "
Replying To Stmunnsriver:  "can money really buy u sucess if u dont have the population? if some lad died in say america and left say carlow [or leitrim</div> gaa 200 million to win a senior all ireland in hurling or football in 10 years could they?"
If spent correctly it will certainly improve u. But u need a vision and patience.

Hiring coaches for all schools/clubs would bring up the standard up no end. Over 20 years you would see great results. The standard at all levels would be raised and then it would become the norm.

U are still going to struggle to a certain extent against the big population centres as they will always on average have more of those generational type players but u will be competitive and when things go ur way u will win things.

People complain about the Dubs, and they do have money and population, but they could easily have wasted it. They really spent it wisely at grass roots. A lot of counties have money and waste money. Spending it on stadiums etc.

Spending on improving the standards should be like building a house......start at the bottom.

Foundation is coaching & facilities (pitches & balls) for all the kids and schools at all levels
Elite Coaching older kids
Elite Coaching county teams

The problem is everyone wants success overnight.

The really small population centres will always struggle. Monaghan is not huge and always seems to be at the top table. I wonder what they are doing?"]I think your key statement is look at what Monaghan are doing always competing, learn from them not Dublin.

arock (Dublin) - Posts: 4959 - 05/11/2020 22:04:07    2305461

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Replying To TheUsername:  "
Replying To bdbuddah:  "[quote=Fionn:  "[quote=CiarraiMick:  "[quote=Fionn:  "Those kerry boys will be calling for Dublin to be split in 2 or 4 now..... oh wait they just have..... ;o) no talk of this when they are dominating... They will want Cork split now also because population at this rate..... oh but maybe not - how many times have cork beaten them recently.... Dont hear Kilkenny hurlers calling for Dublin to split. Common dominator here - kerry whinging because they are not top dog. <b>Get over it - it is Not your divine right to be top dog, even though you think it is....!</b> As another poster rightly commented - when Tyrone were dominating them - they were moaning about puke anti-football etc etc."</div>Fionn if I was a Dub I would take it as a compliment if people say the county should be split as it means they think your county is so good. The first I heard to throw out that line was Colm P Rourke but in fairness to him it was more to do with players getting chances to play county football in Dublin. I would hate to see Dublin split myself but I do see where Colm was coming from. A split in Dublin would create a divide with northside southsife etc but yes there is a lot of very good players that will never get a chance to play for Dublin as the pick is so vast. What I would like to see (when this covid goes away) is maybe A Dublin B team maybe enter the league in div 4 and work their way up. It would gives players a chance to play County football without a split and I've no doubt a Dublin B team would work their way up to at least div 2 of the league. Obviously this team would be players that ain't involved with the senior team. Just a thought."
Yes but the people who are calling for it are doing it for selfish reasons...

Do you think O'Rourke for example would be doing this if meath were doing well,
or all the kerry folk would be calling for it if they were winning Sam... Not on your nelly...

Were people calling for it when kerry or Kilkenny were dominating...??? Not a whisper..

It is an easy argument to put forward due to population, but only because Dublin footballers were winning.

If Limerick or Tipp start dominating like Kilkenny, you can bet your bottom dollar there would not be 1 person from Kilkenny or Cork looking for them counties to be split.
They have more pride than that and wouldnt be embarrassing themselves...

Other side of the coin.....
Rather than splitting a county why not amalgamate smaller counties - eg Meath and Westmeath.... ;o)"]I'm not calling for Dublin to be split at the moment, I'm still a bit in the fence as to whether what's happening now is a phase we're going through where a great team has come along or is this the new norm.

Reality is that the growth in the GAA's popularity in Dublin can be in big part traced back to funding model which was put in place in the first decade of this century, which recognised Dublin as a special case capable of growing the game, so would be funded well above what their number of registered players was at the time. Petty interests of counties outside Dublin at the time could have stopped this but this went through as it was aimed at growing the game.

Reality also is due to Dublin population being far bigger than opponents if the GAA becomes, per capita, as popular in Dublin as other counties it may make the inter county championship a nonsense.

From a romantic point of I don't like the idea of splitting Dublin and at the moment the case is not strong enough to split them.

But, just as the GAA justified increasing funding to Dublin in the first decade of this century as, in the Big Picture, it was very positive (great potential to grow the game) a point might come where a knock on effect of growing the game in Dublin might mean, again looking at the Big Picture the GAA might have to split Dublin into their corresponding current local government county council areas to avoid the All Ireland championship becoming irrelevant.

If your talking about counties amalgamating to bring them closer to Dublin's population, you may be better to call for Dublin to compete in the interpros as a replacement for the current All Ireland championship."]There is sound logic in that post and I get where you are coming from, however that scenario is decades away, beyond our life time, if it ever came to pass which I doubt.

Penetration in Dublin is really poor, there are 39k registered players in Dublin from a population of 1.3 mill, it's the worst ratio in the country. Barely 2% odd of the population of Dublin are registered players.

To give a comparison Cork have 34k registered players for 542k.

Dublin club champions Ballymun Kickhams has 300 members, 6 players from that club were on the Dublin 5 in a row winning squad. That practically what you are looking at.

The doomsday scenario is all well and good in theory, but it doesn't ring through in the numbers on the ground in the scene here in the Dublin game. For me I'd be critical of the DCB, in terms of increasing that penetration in part. Despite strides made in bridging the north, south divide.

Dublin GAA has unique problems with growing the game in Dublin no other county has and most never think about.

Trust me we are many life times away from realising the scenario you predict."]It is exhausting having to endlessly repeat what you highlighted there. Numbers in Dublin are increasingly condensed in top clubs. For every Crokes, Boden and Na Fianna are clubs around those really struggling to field teams. Huge areas of Dublin with not even a club. In fact many of these large clubs are drawing from a very small pool. As with Covid case numbers for Dublin always a third of the total. That applies to everything with Dublin. Dublin Ladies Football and Mens Football are the biggest rivals of Camogie and Hurling. If what outsiders are saying about Dublin GAA wealth is true, how come this blue wave has worked for Football? So many questions but no other county has these problems. I agree completely re DCB, the wastage is colossal.

arock (Dublin) - Posts: 4959 - 05/11/2020 22:20:55    2305463

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Replying To arock:  "
Replying To Mayonman:  "[quote=Stmunnsriver:  "can money really buy u sucess if u dont have the population? if some lad died in say america and left say carlow [or leitrim</div> gaa 200 million to win a senior all ireland in hurling or football in 10 years could they?"
If spent correctly it will certainly improve u. But u need a vision and patience.

Hiring coaches for all schools/clubs would bring up the standard up no end. Over 20 years you would see great results. The standard at all levels would be raised and then it would become the norm.

U are still going to struggle to a certain extent against the big population centres as they will always on average have more of those generational type players but u will be competitive and when things go ur way u will win things.

People complain about the Dubs, and they do have money and population, but they could easily have wasted it. They really spent it wisely at grass roots. A lot of counties have money and waste money. Spending it on stadiums etc.

Spending on improving the standards should be like building a house......start at the bottom.

Foundation is coaching & facilities (pitches & balls) for all the kids and schools at all levels
Elite Coaching older kids
Elite Coaching county teams

The problem is everyone wants success overnight.

The really small population centres will always struggle. Monaghan is not huge and always seems to be at the top table. I wonder what they are doing?"]I think your key statement is look at what Monaghan are doing always competing, learn from them not Dublin."]Good post a rock and you make a lot of sense. Another thing though is some counties have so little money or as you say maybe not spending it properly that their county teams fail miserably as they don't have their best players on board cos its costing the players too much money on travel and loss of work etc. Players in smaller counties in particular may live and work 3 or 4 or 5 hours away from home and to travel for training it costs a lot of money and may have to take time off work so they need to get compensated. I know of two county footballers a few years ago that were living in Dublin but retired from intercounty because it was costing them too much money. Players like that have to have their expenses covered.

CiarraiMick (Dublin) - Posts: 4082 - 05/11/2020 22:47:38    2305470

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Dublin did it back in 2011 and landed 5 in a row because of it.

BeJasus (UK) - Posts: 383 - 05/11/2020 23:00:25    2305474

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Dublin are the most egregious of the financial dopers. The Man City of GAA.
Should have their 5 most recent AI titles rescinded and suspended from future competition until they get their house in order.

Horse (Laois) - Posts: 1146 - 08/11/2020 15:57:58    2306138

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