National Forum

Penalties - For Or Against?

(Oldest Posts First) - Go To The Latest Post


Penaltý shoot outs are always decided by which keeper cheats better.
It should be a 45 taking shoot out. More drama as there is those extra seconds to see if the ball dropped over the bar. More skill. Less luck. No cheating. The GAA gave the 45 shoot out a brief run out as if they wanted it to fail.

FootblockREF (Monaghan) - Posts: 451 - 11/09/2020 20:45:26    2291612

Link

Replying To FootblockREF:  "Penaltý shoot outs are always decided by which keeper cheats better.
It should be a 45 taking shoot out. More drama as there is those extra seconds to see if the ball dropped over the bar. More skill. Less luck. No cheating. The GAA gave the 45 shoot out a brief run out as if they wanted it to fail."
45 is far harder and there is no real element of chance which isnt a good thing.
There isnt more skill.

KillingFields (Limerick) - Posts: 1353 - 11/09/2020 22:54:45    2291635

Link

Replying To KillingFields:  "45 is far harder and there is no real element of chance which isnt a good thing.
There isnt more skill."
How can it be harder but not have more skill?

FootblockREF (Monaghan) - Posts: 451 - 12/09/2020 10:06:43    2291658

Link

I'd be for the 'golden score' instead - at the end of normal time, teams play on until one gains a 'two points lead' and wins.

omahant (USA) - Posts: 1815 - 13/09/2020 18:05:39    2291864

Link

Tonight was a great example of the cruelty of penalty shootouts. Dungannon winning the Tyrone final on their 10th penalty kick. A great game of football by all accounts and a brilliant achievement for Dungannon, but surely not a fair way to decide the game.

Spare a thought for the Trillick player who missed his penalty before Barker scored the winner!

DL_Man (Donegal) - Posts: 68 - 20/09/2020 21:13:20    2293277

Link

When teams get to a final, surely a replay before penalties. After all, there is no Ulster Club this year, replay next weekend would have been very do-able. Apparently also, when teams get to a second set of 5 penalties, they're obliged to use the same 5 players who took the first 5. Where's the sense in that? If the idea is to reflect the team in the penalty opt-out, why not give the team the option to nominate another 5 from the final playing 15.

essmac (Tyrone) - Posts: 759 - 20/09/2020 22:34:05    2293309

Link

Replying To DL_Man:  "Tonight was a great example of the cruelty of penalty shootouts. Dungannon winning the Tyrone final on their 10th penalty kick. A great game of football by all accounts and a brilliant achievement for Dungannon, but surely not a fair way to decide the game.

Spare a thought for the Trillick player who missed his penalty before Barker scored the winner!"
I know in Wexford there's no penalty shoot outs in finals, the reason it wouldn't be fair on the unfortunate player who missed a crucial kick, seen the down hurling final went to a replay too

wexico15 (Wexford) - Posts: 2423 - 21/09/2020 00:34:32    2293325

Link

Replying To DL_Man:  "Tonight was a great example of the cruelty of penalty shootouts. Dungannon winning the Tyrone final on their 10th penalty kick. A great game of football by all accounts and a brilliant achievement for Dungannon, but surely not a fair way to decide the game.

Spare a thought for the Trillick player who missed his penalty before Barker scored the winner!"
Tough on the lad who missed alright but still a great game of football. I doubt the Trillick players would feel any better if they had lost in extra time or a replay though. World Cup finals have been decided on penalties. It's always going to be hard on the losers.

catch22 (USA) - Posts: 1525 - 21/09/2020 06:54:45    2293332

Link

Replying To omahant:  "I'd be for the 'golden score' instead - at the end of normal time, teams play on until one gains a 'two points lead' and wins."
Easier in hurling though. Points are scored from 80 yards nowadays or you could end up getting two handy frees. A couple of handy frees in football likewise could rob a team.
No, I think fair enough, let the penalties decide it. Great excitement too for the spectators.

catch22 (USA) - Posts: 1525 - 21/09/2020 07:53:31    2293334

Link

Totally opposed to it in our amateur game. We are obviously following that other game where the are not supposed to touch the ball with their hand-forget the name of it! They could easily play sudden death. Penalties focuses on the guy who misses and is one of the less used skills in our games.

browncows (Meath) - Posts: 2173 - 22/09/2020 20:15:32    2293631

Link

Replying To catch22:  "
Replying To DL_Man:  "Tonight was a great example of the cruelty of penalty shootouts. Dungannon winning the Tyrone final on their 10th penalty kick. A great game of football by all accounts and a brilliant achievement for Dungannon, but surely not a fair way to decide the game.

Spare a thought for the Trillick player who missed his penalty before Barker scored the winner!"
Tough on the lad who missed alright but still a great game of football. I doubt the Trillick players would feel any better if they had lost in extra time or a replay though. World Cup finals have been decided on penalties. It's always going to be hard on the losers."
Offaly football semi final went to penalties on Sunday. Tullamore won 9-8 on penalties, hard on champions Ferbane. There had to be a result on the day, so it went to penalties. Tullamore play Rhode in the final.

MicktheMiller (Offaly) - Posts: 46 - 22/09/2020 20:21:41    2293633

Link

Replying To browncows:  "Totally opposed to it in our amateur game. We are obviously following that other game where the are not supposed to touch the ball with their hand-forget the name of it! They could easily play sudden death. Penalties focuses on the guy who misses and is one of the less used skills in our games."
Agree on sudden death - they could even require 2-pts margin for victory (that is, always a 'golden goal', or if protecting a 1-pt lead, winning with a 'golden point' if scoring again).

omahant (USA) - Posts: 1815 - 24/09/2020 01:49:48    2293853

Link

Replying To omahant:  "Agree on sudden death - they could even require 2-pts margin for victory (that is, always a 'golden goal', or if protecting a 1-pt lead, winning with a 'golden point' if scoring again)."
I think hurling in particular needs to look at doing its own thing when it comes to finishing games and things should be tried out at least. Penalties suck but just for this year I completely understand that we can't be having loads of replays so we're just gonna have to put up with it

Breezy (Limerick) - Posts: 1009 - 24/09/2020 10:26:25    2293870

Link

Games have to be finished on the day to allow for proper fixture planning. While it is not a nice way to lose (what is) the greater good needs to be kept in mind. Proper fixtures calendar has huge benefits to all players and supporters alike.

Are penalties the best way to achieve this? I think so but would be open to other suggestions. Don't think 65's/45's are better.

Other Options:
most goals wins - this incentives goal scoring but u could still end up with penalties
away goals rule - if a draw the win is given to the away team. lots of games are at neutral grounds so the effectiveness would not be great
Discipline - If a draw team with least amount of cards wins. this is a bit negitive i.e. a punishment rather than a reward

Of the above the most goals is my favourite and then penalties if still a draw as it is very straight forward and is a reward for teams as opposed to a punishment

Mayonman (Galway) - Posts: 1262 - 24/09/2020 10:40:16    2293875

Link

Penalties are like any other part of the game.The team that takes their chances wins the game.A penalty is the same as an open goal chance during the game which should be scored.A good keeper is also important as it is during the game. There is nothing unfair about a penalty shootout.

gunman (Donegal) - Posts: 659 - 24/09/2020 11:11:37    2293884

Link

Replying To gunman:  "Penalties are like any other part of the game.The team that takes their chances wins the game.A penalty is the same as an open goal chance during the game which should be scored.A good keeper is also important as it is during the game. There is nothing unfair about a penalty shootout."
So you play for 60 or so minutes and winning or loosing comes down to a corner or fullback taking a penalty. A skill they never are required to preform at any time. Leave penalties in soccer. Play 5 minute periods whenever a team is a head after one of those periods you have a winner. Once gain if there is a clock that goes off no matter where the ball is I guarantee there won't be many draws. Instead of copying foreign games why don't we look at the Ladies football buzzer goes off game is over.

gatha (Kilkenny) - Posts: 133 - 24/09/2020 12:20:15    2293898

Link

Replying To gatha:  "So you play for 60 or so minutes and winning or loosing comes down to a corner or fullback taking a penalty. A skill they never are required to preform at any time. Leave penalties in soccer. Play 5 minute periods whenever a team is a head after one of those periods you have a winner. Once gain if there is a clock that goes off no matter where the ball is I guarantee there won't be many draws. Instead of copying foreign games why don't we look at the Ladies football buzzer goes off game is over."
But who's making a corner back or a full back take a penalty? Nobody!

You take the five best shooters on your team, and then they're the ones to go again if things are still level after the first five. No need whatsoever for it all to come down to somebody who normally wouldn't be shooting on goal in a million years.

As suggested above, you could even shoot from the hand, to make it a truer reflection of something that players would normally be expected to be able to do anyway. Any forward and probably midfielder too should be able to shoot for goal from 13 meters out in football, or 20 metres in hurling, with a good chance of scoring.

If that's not a realistic proposition in football in particular, well then, that says something else about how football has evolved in recent years. But that's a whole other story.

Pikeman96 (Wexford) - Posts: 405 - 24/09/2020 14:25:36    2293917

Link

Replying To Pikeman96:  "But who's making a corner back or a full back take a penalty? Nobody!

You take the five best shooters on your team, and then they're the ones to go again if things are still level after the first five. No need whatsoever for it all to come down to somebody who normally wouldn't be shooting on goal in a million years.

As suggested above, you could even shoot from the hand, to make it a truer reflection of something that players would normally be expected to be able to do anyway. Any forward and probably midfielder too should be able to shoot for goal from 13 meters out in football, or 20 metres in hurling, with a good chance of scoring.

If that's not a realistic proposition in football in particular, well then, that says something else about how football has evolved in recent years. But that's a whole other story."
I looked at the Hoganstand results page and they had 23finals listed 3 were draws that went to ET and 1 went to penalties. Now its hard to say that is representative across all games where ET would be applicable but its the only thing that is at hand. So over 95% of the time games are decided before it would have to go to penalties. Penalties are straightforward easy to understand and cause no rows - we could change the format of the penalty perhaps but thats it.

zinny (Wexford) - Posts: 948 - 24/09/2020 16:26:56    2293936

Link

No way to finish a game. I remember last year in the Intermiediate final in roscommon oran lost on penalties.

Another 10 mins extra should be played

Tarismelting22 (Roscommon) - Posts: 585 - 24/09/2020 16:42:55    2293938

Link

I'm not a fan of 45s, for 2 reasons:

1. In football, most teams won't have 5 reliable long-range off-the-ground kickers. And if you allow out-of-the-hands, cheating and arguments about the exact location of the kick will be widespread.
2. The defending team can do nothing but watch - the goalie is powerless. That seems wrong. Penalties at least allow teams to attack and defend in some form.

I'm OK with penalties after the first match in initial and interim rounds. However, it seems harsh that an actual trophy would be awarded on the basis of a penalty shoot out. It might be fairer to replay a final and only go to penalties if needed at the end of the replay. Drawn games are common. Drawn replays not so common. And if you've had 2 opportunities to settle it during play, you can't really complain that much if penalties are then used. But there is a very long tradition of replays; and it seems a bit draconian not to at least have a replay after a final.

The GAA also needs to look at 2 other aspects:

i. Correct me if I'm wrong, but my understanding is that soccer and Gaelic alike both require the first 5 penalty takers to be nominated; but that, thereafter, in soccer, anyone can step up. Whereas the GAA obliges the same 5 players to take the second set. There is no obvious logic behind that requirement. It runs counter to the idea of wider team involvement, which surely is the point of a team game.

ii. Dead ball rule, like rugby:

Rugby Union's rule 5.7 (e) states:

"If time expires and the ball is not dead … the referee allows play to continue until the next time that the ball becomes dead."

Sensible rule, I think. My understanding is that there is no such rule in Gaelic (or in soccer either).

In many cases, in a Gaelic match, the ref will let the passage of play continue to a natural conclusion, e.g., either the ball goes dead (score or wide) or the attacking team (the one chasing the game) is dispossessed. We're all familiar with the "closing kickout", after the ball has gone dead, during which the full time whistle will go before the ball even reaches midfield. And that's a fitting way to end a game.

However, I'm sure we've all seen mean-spirited situations where time on the clock is up, the final phase of attacking play is being played out, your team is a point behind or level, and are about to pull the trigger for an equaliser or a winner, only for the ref to blow it up, just seconds before boot makes contact with leather. You could never prove spite on the part of the ref (as he'd be technically within the rules), but you'd have your doubts.

Often, the ref will let the play go on until the ball is dead. But sometimes they won't. The lack of consistency is unacceptable; and there is a related issue - namely that, nowadays, the team in front will usually do so much time-wasting messing about in stoppage time that you could easily double the time added on anyway.

As with the belated formal adoption of an advantage rule (something that was often applied de facto in practice anyway), I reckon it's time we had a version of the "play until the ball goes dead" rule in GAA.

iii. Time-keeping - take it out of the ref's hands altogether.

Just my 2p/c worth

essmac (Tyrone) - Posts: 759 - 24/09/2020 18:59:52    2293953

Link