National Forum

Clifford's Red Card

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Replying To MesAmis:  "Jaysus man, you're some tulip.

Either engage in the topic or not, do you think that star players are treated unfairly or not?

Have your little p***ing contest in another thread."
Ah me auld flower don't be like that.
After years of this place descending into a Dublin controlled WUM fest you hardly expect any Kerry poster to properly engage with anything they post on here at this stage.

TheHermit (Kerry) - Posts: 5732 - 04/09/2020 10:31:07    2290513

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Replying To TheHermit:  "Ah me auld flower don't be like that.
After years of this place descending into a Dublin controlled WUM fest you hardly expect any Kerry poster to properly engage with anything they post on here at this stage."
Aithníonn ciaróg, ciaróg eile.

'Dublin controlled WUM fest' - get over yourself.

You brought your Dub/Kerry p*** antics into this thread. No one else.

There have been plenty of threads on here for you to have your little rants with the other WUMs.

Some Kerry posters can engage with topics without boring everyone else with your idiotic and pathetic crying.

MesAmis (Dublin) - Posts: 13086 - 04/09/2020 10:59:19    2290519

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Replying To zinny:  "Its pretty simple really, players will foul if they know they will either get away with it or that the consequences are not severe enough. A back will do it and so will a forward, these days forward are increasingly fouling defenders coming out with the ball as a deliberate tactic to slow the game down.
If everyone wants fair games then they have to accept that only comes with the ref blowing the whistle and sending players to the line more often until players begin to think the risk of getting caught it too high. This time last year if the health authorities asked people to practice personal hygiene and stay a home when sick etc how many people would have done it? At the moment in football the risk favors the person fouling for a number of reasons, if the GAA wanted they could change the rules and emphasis on enforcement allowing linesmen and umpires to inform the ref of holding, dragging etc that goes on behind their backs and then put the offender in the bin for 10mins and put the emphasis on the player who started it."
Good post. I'd agree with that. It isn't without its difficulties but there does need to be an emphasis on at least trying to punish the instigator more than the player that reacts.

MesAmis (Dublin) - Posts: 13086 - 04/09/2020 11:01:32    2290521

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Replying To MesAmis:  "Aithníonn ciaróg, ciaróg eile.

'Dublin controlled WUM fest' - get over yourself.

You brought your Dub/Kerry p*** antics into this thread. No one else.

There have been plenty of threads on here for you to have your little rants with the other WUMs.

Some Kerry posters can engage with topics without boring everyone else with your idiotic and pathetic crying."
Was the opening post not a Dub talking about David Clifford having a temperament issue as if one red card in a club match is proof of this.

What's wrong with me pointing out a recent game where his jersey was literally torn off his back to illustrate what he puts up with?

But because the culprits were the Dubs, a fella like you piles in the minute a Kerry poster says anything. Ye lads shout down and insult anyone and seeing as some of the admins masquerade as Dub posters ye can do it yer heart's content.

This is just another thread trying to get a rise out of people.

Pee antics indeed, and you lads are welcome to them.

TheHermit (Kerry) - Posts: 5732 - 04/09/2020 12:34:34    2290538

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Replying To TheHermit:  "Was the opening post not a Dub talking about David Clifford having a temperament issue as if one red card in a club match is proof of this.

What's wrong with me pointing out a recent game where his jersey was literally torn off his back to illustrate what he puts up with?

But because the culprits were the Dubs, a fella like you piles in the minute a Kerry poster says anything. Ye lads shout down and insult anyone and seeing as some of the admins masquerade as Dub posters ye can do it yer heart's content.

This is just another thread trying to get a rise out of people.

Pee antics indeed, and you lads are welcome to them."
'You lads' ???

You're addressing me and only me here.

You, and only you, made the thread about your Dub/Kerry p***ing competition. No one else.

The opening post was about Clifford reacting to provocation and what the likes of Donaghy (is he part of the 'you lads'?) had to say in terms of what Clifford needs to do.

The general question of whether or not talents like Clifford need more protection from referees/officials os what this thread is about, not your pathetic Dub/Kerry Wumming.

MesAmis (Dublin) - Posts: 13086 - 04/09/2020 13:45:11    2290543

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Replying To sligo joe:  "Kieran Donaghy suggesting David Clifford needs to learn how to deal with provocation following his recent dismissal. The available video shows little if any provocation, though in fairness the forcefulness of Clifford's transgression is also unclear. However while there is no doubt he is the target of regular off the ball fouling, Clifford has often been the instigator of foul play himself, just as Donaghy did in his day, live by the sword, die by the sword."
David does need to cop on a little. Maybe Star, Galvin and Gooch need to sis down with him and have a chat about what to expect if he keeps this up.

Maybe they could also talk to him about what is expected from a kerry captain.

Also can you explain the bit of your post that says Clifford has often been the instigator of foul play himself?

KingdomBoy1 (Kerry) - Posts: 11469 - 04/09/2020 14:19:37    2290552

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Replying To MesAmis:  "Give it a rest man.

This is a proper topic, in that players like Clifford get targeted for abuse in the hope that they'll react. In football we have a huge problem with this, every county has players that are targeted and players that are instigators.

Clifford is still young and even if he can be a little hot tempered I still reckon he'll get there and learn to be more like Colm Cooper in that regard. No guarantees of course.

However the problem is that those that instigate these incidents aren't being targeted by the officials."
I agree, this is a legitimate discussion and is one that has been swept under the carpet by everyone for years. The question i would love the GAA to answer is - why are their four officials on the pitch - 2 linesmen and 2 umpires who have no real meaningful purpose other than to carry out trivial things like waving a flag. Any discretions i.e. off the ball stuff and body checking should be brought to the attention of the referee by umpires and linesmen and a black card issued. I would go as far as to say that no ticking should take place, a straight back card, in the bin for 10 minutes. If this was implemented, it wouldn't be long before this type of behaviour would cease to go on.

wicklowsupport (Wicklow) - Posts: 1150 - 04/09/2020 14:19:58    2290554

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Replying To MesAmis:  "'You lads' ???

You're addressing me and only me here.

You, and only you, made the thread about your Dub/Kerry p***ing competition. No one else.

The opening post was about Clifford reacting to provocation and what the likes of Donaghy (is he part of the 'you lads'?) had to say in terms of what Clifford needs to do.

The general question of whether or not talents like Clifford need more protection from referees/officials os what this thread is about, not your pathetic Dub/Kerry Wumming."
You're waisting your time engaging with that Mes, they're probably on the sauce already. Very angry person who vents at strangers on an Internet forum, whatever one is into, I guess.

Dubsfan28 (Dublin) - Posts: 2305 - 04/09/2020 14:43:44    2290559

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Replying To Dubsfan28:  "You're waisting your time engaging with that Mes, they're probably on the sauce already. Very angry person who vents at strangers on an Internet forum, whatever one is into, I guess."
Waiting till half 7 and the rugby for the sauce.

As for being an angry person venting at strangers, its your fellow countyman that responded to a post of mine with a tirade of insults and talk of pee antics etc etc. But yeah, I'm the one venting at strangers!!!

I mean I posted a reply that was meant to be light-humored but also illustrated the off the ball stuff David Clifford has to deal with regularly.
In response your friend jumps down my throat, accuses me of not engaging with the topic and fires off a load of insults!!!
And then he has the total lack of self-awareness to say stop complaining about being shouted down and stick to the script!!!!

Life's too short for this crap on a Friday evening, good luck to ye!

TheHermit (Kerry) - Posts: 5732 - 04/09/2020 16:08:55    2290574

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Replying To KingdomBoy1:  "David does need to cop on a little. Maybe Star, Galvin and Gooch need to sis down with him and have a chat about what to expect if he keeps this up.

Maybe they could also talk to him about what is expected from a kerry captain.

Also can you explain the bit of your post that says Clifford has often been the instigator of foul play himself?"
In fairness "often" is the wrong word from me, but I have seen him swinging an arm high a couple of times when he was beaten to the ball. David Clifford's on field persona seems to be ultra intense and along with his superb skill, maybe that makes him the player he is. Some players are like that, for example Kevin Mc never stops smiling off the field but once he crosses the white line he wears the face of an assassin. Then Jack McCaffrey just the opposite. Difficult for an intense young player to switch off and ignore provocation but that's the deal.

sligo joe (Dublin) - Posts: 191 - 04/09/2020 17:15:45    2290580

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Replying To sligo joe:  "In fairness "often" is the wrong word from me, but I have seen him swinging an arm high a couple of times when he was beaten to the ball. David Clifford's on field persona seems to be ultra intense and along with his superb skill, maybe that makes him the player he is. Some players are like that, for example Kevin Mc never stops smiling off the field but once he crosses the white line he wears the face of an assassin. Then Jack McCaffrey just the opposite. Difficult for an intense young player to switch off and ignore provocation but that's the deal."
Ah ya, sure look no 1 likes to get bate to a ball and like you say David is ultra competitive and sometimes with the vigors of youth it might drive a player to leave a little something on some1, although I know plenty of older player who would leave a little extra in a tackle as well.

Like I said the likes of Gooch Star and Galvin need to take him out for a few sodas and talk to him and tell him their stories, we know their stories back to front but the young lads in the squad today wouldn't because they would have been too young when Galvin and O'Leary were having their battles.

KingdomBoy1 (Kerry) - Posts: 11469 - 04/09/2020 17:47:32    2290591

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Players like Gooch, Canavan, Brogan, McManus, McNamee and our own Dessie Dolan have all endured physical off-the-ball abuse from corner backs over the years. This is not new. My own first experience of this phenemenon was the 1976 Munster final in the then newly-developed Pairc Ui Chaoimh. I was on the Blackrock terrace and had a clear view of the treatment meted out to Jimmy Barry Murphy, even when the ball was nowhere in the vicinity. I'm sure this was not new at the time but it was the first time I had witnessed anything like it. As regards David Clifford, I would regard him as one of the most outstanding young talents I have seen. Of course he receives very close attention from opposing corner backs, much of it totally unacceptable. He has got two red cards in Kerry club games in the past twelve months. However, the two yellow cards he got in Omagh early this year provoked a lot more outrage. Was this an anti-Tyrone or anti-Ulster phenomenon? Most commentators seemed to suggest that he was an innocent victim. Of course there was provocation involved, although I cannot recall any appeal from Kerry against that decision. Instead, referee Fergal Kelly and his umpires were castigated in the media and there was a general consensus that Clifford was totally blameless. But why has there been no such outrage against the officials who were involved in Clifford's straight red cards in the club games in Kerry? Double standards?

midlands (Westmeath) - Posts: 199 - 04/09/2020 23:45:55    2290628

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Replying To midlands:  "Players like Gooch, Canavan, Brogan, McManus, McNamee and our own Dessie Dolan have all endured physical off-the-ball abuse from corner backs over the years. This is not new. My own first experience of this phenemenon was the 1976 Munster final in the then newly-developed Pairc Ui Chaoimh. I was on the Blackrock terrace and had a clear view of the treatment meted out to Jimmy Barry Murphy, even when the ball was nowhere in the vicinity. I'm sure this was not new at the time but it was the first time I had witnessed anything like it. As regards David Clifford, I would regard him as one of the most outstanding young talents I have seen. Of course he receives very close attention from opposing corner backs, much of it totally unacceptable. He has got two red cards in Kerry club games in the past twelve months. However, the two yellow cards he got in Omagh early this year provoked a lot more outrage. Was this an anti-Tyrone or anti-Ulster phenomenon? Most commentators seemed to suggest that he was an innocent victim. Of course there was provocation involved, although I cannot recall any appeal from Kerry against that decision. Instead, referee Fergal Kelly and his umpires were castigated in the media and there was a general consensus that Clifford was totally blameless. But why has there been no such outrage against the officials who were involved in Clifford's straight red cards in the club games in Kerry? Double standards?"
I think 1 of the biggest problems are and I heard Galvin mention it lately is a defender will get tangled with a good forward then the ref sees it or gets alerted to it and he automatically issue's 2 yellows, then that defender is switched with another defender who hasn't a yellow card and then that defender starts a big tangle with the good forward and the ref comes over and books the 2, the new defender gets a yellow and the good forward gets the road.

But look it happens everywhere there is no club or county whiter than white when it comes to this kinda thing.

The reff can't see everything but for me the umpire is seriously underused.

KingdomBoy1 (Kerry) - Posts: 11469 - 05/09/2020 08:52:32    2290642

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Replying To midlands:  "Players like Gooch, Canavan, Brogan, McManus, McNamee and our own Dessie Dolan have all endured physical off-the-ball abuse from corner backs over the years. This is not new. My own first experience of this phenemenon was the 1976 Munster final in the then newly-developed Pairc Ui Chaoimh. I was on the Blackrock terrace and had a clear view of the treatment meted out to Jimmy Barry Murphy, even when the ball was nowhere in the vicinity. I'm sure this was not new at the time but it was the first time I had witnessed anything like it. As regards David Clifford, I would regard him as one of the most outstanding young talents I have seen. Of course he receives very close attention from opposing corner backs, much of it totally unacceptable. He has got two red cards in Kerry club games in the past twelve months. However, the two yellow cards he got in Omagh early this year provoked a lot more outrage. Was this an anti-Tyrone or anti-Ulster phenomenon? Most commentators seemed to suggest that he was an innocent victim. Of course there was provocation involved, although I cannot recall any appeal from Kerry against that decision. Instead, referee Fergal Kelly and his umpires were castigated in the media and there was a general consensus that Clifford was totally blameless. But why has there been no such outrage against the officials who were involved in Clifford's straight red cards in the club games in Kerry? Double standards?"
You don't have to back to '76- and I was there the same day and saw what you are talking about. As late as ten years ago in Killarney, Stephen Kelly was fouled all day and nothing was done about it. Everybody in the stadium seemed to see what was going on except the match officials. Central Council suspended the culprit afterwards but was no good to Kelly.

Oldertourman (Limerick) - Posts: 162 - 05/09/2020 11:09:45    2290657

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Replying To Oldertourman:  "You don't have to back to '76- and I was there the same day and saw what you are talking about. As late as ten years ago in Killarney, Stephen Kelly was fouled all day and nothing was done about it. Everybody in the stadium seemed to see what was going on except the match officials. Central Council suspended the culprit afterwards but was no good to Kelly."
You could come closer again oldertourman with the way we handled Michael Murphy in the 2014 final, or Peter Harte in last years semifinal, but I could point to plenty of times when our main men were taken out of it by foul means, but it's part of the game unfortunately and always has been in my memory.

I remember the munster final in 2010, a mighty battle that ye could have won, Tomás did a job on Kelly that day and like you say got done retrospectively which didn't do Kelly any good but it didn't do us any good either as we were missing Tomás against Down who beat us in the quarters, also that day against Down we were also missing Galvin who by the way was himself taken care of by a Cork half back in the munster semifinal replay.

KingdomBoy1 (Kerry) - Posts: 11469 - 05/09/2020 12:21:03    2290666

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Replying To MesAmis:  "There is a disproportionate punishment towards those that are targeted in Football as opposed to the instigators.

Some forwards, Brogan, McManus, Cooper etc seem/seemed to be excellent and not reacting but others such as Connolly, O'Connor, Clifford (early days yet to be fair) seem to have their short fuses exploited.

Obviously it is down to the individuals to not react but at the same time the fact that the instigators aren't targeted by referees (even retrospectively) is not right either."
I think it's a bit of a joke to be putting clifford in with o connor or Connolly. I know you mention early days but that's ridiculous.

The red card being such a big deal and of course he let his club down might be all he needs to learn not to retaliate

galwayfball (Galway) - Posts: 1180 - 05/09/2020 14:51:51    2290677

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Replying To galwayfball:  "I think it's a bit of a joke to be putting clifford in with o connor or Connolly. I know you mention early days but that's ridiculous.

The red card being such a big deal and of course he let his club down might be all he needs to learn not to retaliate"
I don't think anyone is putting Clifford "in with" Connolly or O'Connor or indeed with the likes of the Brogans or Gooch who seemed to avoid disciplinary issues like the plague. Not saying he deserved them or otherwise but Clifford has received three reds in less than 12mths, that's a lot, the question is what can he do to rectify this from his own point of view, leaving poor officiating aside.

sligo joe (Dublin) - Posts: 191 - 05/09/2020 16:23:04    2290689

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Replying To KingdomBoy1:  "I think 1 of the biggest problems are and I heard Galvin mention it lately is a defender will get tangled with a good forward then the ref sees it or gets alerted to it and he automatically issue's 2 yellows, then that defender is switched with another defender who hasn't a yellow card and then that defender starts a big tangle with the good forward and the ref comes over and books the 2, the new defender gets a yellow and the good forward gets the road.

But look it happens everywhere there is no club or county whiter than white when it comes to this kinda thing.

The reff can't see everything but for me the umpire is seriously underused."
Duties of an Umpire

The Umpires shall bring to the notice of the referee, during a break in play, any instances of foul play in particular, rough or dangerous play, striking, hitting, or kicking, or unauthorised incursions onto the field of play, which have not been noticed by the Referee.

From what I have seen the umpires are not mic'ed so how are they supposed to do this if the ref is the other end of the field or does not look at them while the game is going on. One simple thing would be do something similar as happens in rugby - the flag is held straight out to signify foul play an not pulled back until the ref speaks to the linesman. If players and the crowd know this and see the flag out I guarantee they will not be long about letting the ref know. So as it stands the duty is almost setup to fail. Also it should be changed that if play had continued and a score resulted to the offending team then the referee should have the power to cancel it and add back the time.

zinny (Wexford) - Posts: 957 - 05/09/2020 16:31:15    2290690

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Replying To sligo joe:  "In fairness "often" is the wrong word from me, but I have seen him swinging an arm high a couple of times when he was beaten to the ball. David Clifford's on field persona seems to be ultra intense and along with his superb skill, maybe that makes him the player he is. Some players are like that, for example Kevin Mc never stops smiling off the field but once he crosses the white line he wears the face of an assassin. Then Jack McCaffrey just the opposite. Difficult for an intense young player to switch off and ignore provocation but that's the deal."
I have to agree with you Sligo.David Clifford an unbelievable talent and of course will get targeted but is no angel himself either and sometimes is the instigator himself,he should concentrate on football

CiarraiMick (Dublin) - Posts: 266 - 05/09/2020 17:17:06    2290698

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Replying To sligo joe:  "I don't think anyone is putting Clifford "in with" Connolly or O'Connor or indeed with the likes of the Brogans or Gooch who seemed to avoid disciplinary issues like the plague. Not saying he deserved them or otherwise but Clifford has received three reds in less than 12mths, that's a lot, the question is what can he do to rectify this from his own point of view, leaving poor officiating aside."
The post I replied to literally put clifford in with Connolly and o connor

galwayfball (Galway) - Posts: 1180 - 05/09/2020 17:52:15    2290703

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