National Forum

Championship Open Draw

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With the limited amount of time to run the Gaelic Football Championship this would be a great opportunity to have an open draw the numbers (32) (I presume that Galway will not be going to New York) it is perfect instead of provinces 11, 9, 6 and 6.
But the G.A.A would hardly be that radical or could they be?

Breffnisbest (Cavan) - Posts: 471 - 19/06/2020 08:54:11    2281244

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Replying To Breffnisbest:  "With the limited amount of time to run the Gaelic Football Championship this would be a great opportunity to have an open draw the numbers (32) (I presume that Galway will not be going to New York) it is perfect instead of provinces 11, 9, 6 and 6.
But the G.A.A would hardly be that radical or could they be?"
Agree with you on this. Novel pairings and a great opportunity to visit new areas.

royaldunne (Meath) - Posts: 19449 - 19/06/2020 09:38:25    2281246

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Provincial councils wouldn't let it happen......just in case it was very successful

fullbach (Carlow) - Posts: 264 - 19/06/2020 10:00:22    2281247

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Replying To fullbach:  "Provincial councils wouldn't let it happen......just in case it was very successful"
Yep, provincial draws will stay as is. The councils will even point to the increased risk of longer travel to ensure the draw is kept provincial (even tho longer distance = less fans travelling!).

But I do think it'll go to straight knock-out, and possibly quarter finals with 4 provincial winners playing 4 runners-up. Like the minor championship.

Winning a provincial title is still the most many counties can hope for, so I don't see it being changed by popular vote either.

cavanman47 (Cavan) - Posts: 5012 - 19/06/2020 10:06:24    2281248

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I don't see how open draw changes the timeframe that much and if anything thing this is definitely not the year to have a cross country competition in Football.

Might not be a bad idea in the hurling though as the teams are closer to each other and the numbers work easy if you give last years AI finalists a bye. But still the best option is just the old format

Breezy (Limerick) - Posts: 1236 - 19/06/2020 11:19:22    2281260

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Replying To cavanman47:  "Yep, provincial draws will stay as is. The councils will even point to the increased risk of longer travel to ensure the draw is kept provincial (even tho longer distance = less fans travelling!).

But I do think it'll go to straight knock-out, and possibly quarter finals with 4 provincial winners playing 4 runners-up. Like the minor championship.

Winning a provincial title is still the most many counties can hope for, so I don't see it being changed by popular vote either."
Agreed, I never could understand the logic of people wanting to destroy the provincial championships. Why reduce the prospect of winning silverware, esp when the counties that can realistically win the All-Ireland decline more and more.
Given what the GAA has created with Dublin I'd say we'll be lucky to have more than 1 county winning Sam every decade from now on!!

By all means make the provincial championships a bit more balanced and maybe give teams that reach a provincial final one year a bye to enter the competition later the year after. For example, Ulster's structure is always held up as being an impediment to All-Ireland success when you can have the likes of Tyrone and Donegal drawn in its preliminary round etc. But its the Ulster Council's choice to stick with that format which can make it very hard for a team unlucky in the draw.
If Donegal, for example, won Ulster one year surely they should get some reward the next .

TheHermit (Kerry) - Posts: 6354 - 19/06/2020 12:36:35    2281266

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Replying To cavanman47:  "Yep, provincial draws will stay as is. The councils will even point to the increased risk of longer travel to ensure the draw is kept provincial (even tho longer distance = less fans travelling!).

But I do think it'll go to straight knock-out, and possibly quarter finals with 4 provincial winners playing 4 runners-up. Like the minor championship.

Winning a provincial title is still the most many counties can hope for, so I don't see it being changed by popular vote either."
Agree...if you take away the provincial championship Le you take away the chance of winning something for the vast majority of counties.

yew_tree (Mayo) - Posts: 11230 - 19/06/2020 12:57:04    2281268

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Replying To TheHermit:  "Agreed, I never could understand the logic of people wanting to destroy the provincial championships. Why reduce the prospect of winning silverware, esp when the counties that can realistically win the All-Ireland decline more and more.
Given what the GAA has created with Dublin I'd say we'll be lucky to have more than 1 county winning Sam every decade from now on!!

By all means make the provincial championships a bit more balanced and maybe give teams that reach a provincial final one year a bye to enter the competition later the year after. For example, Ulster's structure is always held up as being an impediment to All-Ireland success when you can have the likes of Tyrone and Donegal drawn in its preliminary round etc. But its the Ulster Council's choice to stick with that format which can make it very hard for a team unlucky in the draw.
If Donegal, for example, won Ulster one year surely they should get some reward the next ."
I'd take London and move them to Leinster and then to Ulster if KK ever decide to field a football team again. I wouldn't be a fan of giving teams a bye into the Championship if they win a provincial title the year before. It should always be based on your performance in the current season.

That leaves us with 12 and 9 teams in Leinster and Ulster respectively. Connacht and Munster both have 6. Split each province into groups of 3 so each team gets 2 games minimum.

Rolo2010 (Donegal) - Posts: 738 - 19/06/2020 16:16:01    2281287

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Replying To yew_tree:  "Agree...if you take away the provincial championship Le you take away the chance of winning something for the vast majority of counties."
Provincial championships worked best when it was only shot at an All-Ireland title. Sligo could get a good team together and win a Connacht title but Mayo/Roscommon/Galway will likely come through the backdoor. Imbalanced provinces wouldn't be an issue if a group stage was introduced to give each team a minimum number of games. The only counties which can be moved are the exile counties (London and New York). Put NY in Leinster and London in Ulster so they have 12 and 10 teams respectively. We can review it if KK ever field a football team again.

Rolo2010 (Donegal) - Posts: 738 - 19/06/2020 16:45:44    2281292

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Id love to see a straight knockout open draw. It would potentially be a leveller for many teams as for example, Mayo might lose to Dublin 8 times out of 10, but in this instance they only have to play them once. No second chances. I dont think the GAA is radical enough to go for this option though and entrenched conservative voices will resonate as usual.
On a broader note id personally be in favour of
1) elimination of all provincial championships and changes to the progression of the back-door/qualifier route.
2) putting a clearly defined tackle in the rulebook
3) no more black cards
4) no mark
5) keeper kicks out from the 21yard line. Kickout must travel 20 metres
6) Teams to be encouraged to attack and score, rather than to flood their side of the pitch, defend, counter. The act of scoring a point to maybe be increased to 2 points, with a point from behind the 45 being worth 3. A goal is worth 5.
7) teams and managers who persist with defensive gameplay to be run through the mill as they have largely been by supporters and media in the last few years.
8) greater emphasis placed on league style fixtures. Perhaps cutting the four divisions to two and allowing counties to unite in football to be more competetive.

Hows that for radical? Just ideas though folks. Be interested in your thoughts.

Young_gael (Meath) - Posts: 587 - 19/06/2020 17:26:46    2281295

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Replying To Young_gael:  "Id love to see a straight knockout open draw. It would potentially be a leveller for many teams as for example, Mayo might lose to Dublin 8 times out of 10, but in this instance they only have to play them once. No second chances. I dont think the GAA is radical enough to go for this option though and entrenched conservative voices will resonate as usual.
On a broader note id personally be in favour of
1) elimination of all provincial championships and changes to the progression of the back-door/qualifier route.
2) putting a clearly defined tackle in the rulebook
3) no more black cards
4) no mark
5) keeper kicks out from the 21yard line. Kickout must travel 20 metres
6) Teams to be encouraged to attack and score, rather than to flood their side of the pitch, defend, counter. The act of scoring a point to maybe be increased to 2 points, with a point from behind the 45 being worth 3. A goal is worth 5.
7) teams and managers who persist with defensive gameplay to be run through the mill as they have largely been by supporters and media in the last few years.
8) greater emphasis placed on league style fixtures. Perhaps cutting the four divisions to two and allowing counties to unite in football to be more competetive.

Hows that for radical? Just ideas though folks. Be interested in your thoughts."
Well I suppose the obvious question is why, lots of suggestions but no reasons, for example why do you want to devalue a goal?

sligo joe (Dublin) - Posts: 677 - 19/06/2020 20:14:53    2281310

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For the year that's in it, I think everyone would look forward to an open draw. The novelty factor alone would ensure maximum media coverage and all fans would engage with it.
Opportunity lost as far as I am concerned and I think Gaelic football would have been the winner.

61123 (Wicklow) - Posts: 172 - 19/06/2020 20:48:45    2281311

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Replying To yew_tree:  "Agree...if you take away the provincial championship Le you take away the chance of winning something for the vast majority of counties."
Come to Leinster and you wouldn't say that lol.
Although for other provinces I do agree with you

royaldunne (Meath) - Posts: 19449 - 19/06/2020 21:58:50    2281318

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Replying To royaldunne:  "Come to Leinster and you wouldn't say that lol.
Although for other provinces I do agree with you"
Limerick 1
Waterford 1
Clare 2
Tipp 9 Last one 1935

I dont agree with you , Take a look at Munster -:)

superbluedub (Dublin) - Posts: 2837 - 19/06/2020 22:41:19    2281325

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If they go with the provincial championships and have no back door you are going to have a very unfair system.If you take ULSTER for my own county Donegal to win we would have to beat Tyrone,and probably Armagh and Monaghan.Tyrone and Monaghan Div 1 and Armagh probably Div 1 next year.

CONNACHT Mayo or Roscommon would have two serious games to take the title,Galway could win it with one serious
game

MUNSTER Kerry have no competition at present .Cork may be improving but they are only on their way out of Div 3.

LEINSTER Dublin would appear to have it wrapped up again.

I think every team deserves more than one game unless you go for an open draw where it depends on your luck with the draw and where a lesser team could get a good run if they avoided the big guns.

gunman (Donegal) - Posts: 1056 - 19/06/2020 23:45:27    2281336

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Replying To Young_gael:  "Id love to see a straight knockout open draw. It would potentially be a leveller for many teams as for example, Mayo might lose to Dublin 8 times out of 10, but in this instance they only have to play them once. No second chances. I dont think the GAA is radical enough to go for this option though and entrenched conservative voices will resonate as usual.
On a broader note id personally be in favour of
1) elimination of all provincial championships and changes to the progression of the back-door/qualifier route.
2) putting a clearly defined tackle in the rulebook
3) no more black cards
4) no mark
5) keeper kicks out from the 21yard line. Kickout must travel 20 metres
6) Teams to be encouraged to attack and score, rather than to flood their side of the pitch, defend, counter. The act of scoring a point to maybe be increased to 2 points, with a point from behind the 45 being worth 3. A goal is worth 5.
7) teams and managers who persist with defensive gameplay to be run through the mill as they have largely been by supporters and media in the last few years.
8) greater emphasis placed on league style fixtures. Perhaps cutting the four divisions to two and allowing counties to unite in football to be more competetive.

Hows that for radical? Just ideas though folks. Be interested in your thoughts."
Anytime Mayo have played Dublin in Championship it has been a knockout game? There hasn't been another chance after it. I understand what you are saying though but I would argue that a straight knock out competition would make the likes of Dublin even more focused and harder to catch off guard.

Douglas_44 (Roscommon) - Posts: 225 - 20/06/2020 10:38:56    2281346

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Replying To royaldunne:  "Come to Leinster and you wouldn't say that lol.
Although for other provinces I do agree with you"
Counties like Meath and Kildare should be doing so much better instead of maiming Dublin win everything...I'm
Not having a go but especially Meath always stood up...what has happened?

Ye are a wealthy county with a big population...then you look at small counties population wise like Monaghan and Roscommon who are getting the most out of the resources available to them...Meath and Kildare should be doing so much better

yew_tree (Mayo) - Posts: 11230 - 20/06/2020 11:31:58    2281351

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Replying To yew_tree:  "Counties like Meath and Kildare should be doing so much better instead of maiming Dublin win everything...I'm
Not having a go but especially Meath always stood up...what has happened?

Ye are a wealthy county with a big population...then you look at small counties population wise like Monaghan and Roscommon who are getting the most out of the resources available to them...Meath and Kildare should be doing so much better"
We should be doing better yew_tree, I'd say a series of terrible county board decisions, particularly around the period 2002-2012 left us well behind the pack and we still haven't recovered.

However just on the population of Meath (and Kildare I'd imagine), don't let the figures fool you. If you take a spin around Meath, you're more likely to Dublin jerseys and tops than Meath ones, significantly more around Ashbourne, Dunboyne, Dunshaughlin and Ratoath, all large towns near the Dublin border.

I'm not up Navan way as often, but you'll see a lot of Dublin jerseys around there as well, particularly around Johnstown.

We're absolutely polluted with smelly Dubs, they had to invade to stop us winning Sam :-)

Htaem (Meath) - Posts: 8657 - 20/06/2020 13:27:33    2281356

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Replying To yew_tree:  "Agree...if you take away the provincial championship Le you take away the chance of winning something for the vast majority of counties."
Quite.

Would it be worth that for the benefit of cutting down the comp from six weeks to five ?

(I'm assuming here that for 2020, we're dropping the back door and when you lose, you're out.)

lionofludesch (Down) - Posts: 475 - 20/06/2020 13:36:03    2281357

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Replying To Htaem:  "We should be doing better yew_tree, I'd say a series of terrible county board decisions, particularly around the period 2002-2012 left us well behind the pack and we still haven't recovered.

However just on the population of Meath (and Kildare I'd imagine), don't let the figures fool you. If you take a spin around Meath, you're more likely to Dublin jerseys and tops than Meath ones, significantly more around Ashbourne, Dunboyne, Dunshaughlin and Ratoath, all large towns near the Dublin border.

I'm not up Navan way as often, but you'll see a lot of Dublin jerseys around there as well, particularly around Johnstown.

We're absolutely polluted with smelly Dubs, they had to invade to stop us winning Sam :-)"
Very true, we should run the county board through the mill over a series of bad decisions and appointments over a sustained period. That and too many coaches, too many players coming and going, and the effective cutting out of many experienced players in the early 10s, along with a declining sense of identity and interest in the towns around the county. Meath is as likely to re-emerge and win all-Irelands as it is to stay largely irrelevant in the division 2 area, occasionally drifting into division 1 or 3 depending on the times. You really would have to be from the county to understand the point we're trying to make. Its a different place then it was 25 years ago, a great place to live; busy, suburban, good roads, etc, but the spirit of the past is gone, at least for now.

Young_gael (Meath) - Posts: 587 - 20/06/2020 13:52:24    2281358

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