National Forum

Should The Rebel Flag Be Banned At Cork Matches?

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Replying To Htaem:  "Well there certainly could be repercussions, I mean we're living at a time when Gone With The Wind has been deemed as too extreme for our poor little eyes, so nothing would surprise me!"
What do you think the repercussions would be?

extranjero (Wexford) - Posts: 366 - 14/06/2020 18:40:27    2280818

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How would people feel if for example Gaelfest took off and there was a cross community development and popularity in GAA in Belfast/Antrim and Antrim fulfilled its true potential in a neo or new Irishism so to speak.

Would people be happy with the Union Jack, Orange Order Flag or the Ulster Banner Flag at GAA games, if Unionists became interested in Gaelic Games. Would people be offended, look for bannings.

I'm just thinking of the powerful emotions flags as symbols can stir up whether they be intentional or not. What flags are right/overreactions and what flags arent/should be banned.

TheUsername (Dublin) - Posts: 3671 - 14/06/2020 18:59:47    2280820

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Replying To extranjero:  "What do you think the repercussions would be?"
No idea.

This is your scenario, what do you think would happen?

Htaem (Meath) - Posts: 8583 - 14/06/2020 19:05:16    2280821

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Replying To Htaem:  "I think as a society we generally do err of the side of caution, I think we do that naturally, especially when we are meeting new people, you only get one shot at a first impression as they say. And I also think you're right, I also believe most people are smart enough to know when something is a part of outrage culture or a someone is genuine hurt (although that isn't always clear in all cases)

But the squeaky wheel (in this case outrage culture) tends to get oil and that's why we have ridiculous situations like Little Britain and Gone With the Wind being removed, which shouldn't happen.

As for identity politics, left, right or wherever the fcuk, I don't want anything to do with any politically motivated groups, I just want them to leave me out of it and I think many others feel the same.

I have to say I disagree with your last point though, people will disagree on all sorts of things, that's life, so long as we do it peacefully and respect each other, that's the main thing."
Well said.

royaldunne (Meath) - Posts: 17035 - 14/06/2020 19:14:05    2280822

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Will Palestinian flags be confiscated too???

royaldunne (Meath) - Posts: 17035 - 14/06/2020 19:56:15    2280824

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Replying To MesAmis:  "The flag represents what it represents. You can't change that.

If it represents something different to you that doesn't replace the original meaning or wipe it away.

I'm hearing all of what people are saying but I won't whitewash and remove history. That is dangerous."
The flag was a military flag in a war (not the national flag). It was the flag of Lee's army. That alone was it's original meaning The biggest reason it became famous was that despite facing a much stronger opponent this army won a lot of battles.
Anyway I actually know a lot of the bad things associated with this flag, I am purposefully giving another perspective as this is what some people see in it.
It's better if you if people concentrate on the issue of actual discrimination rather than dictating to people what flag they are allowed to display. It's bad in a democracy when people are dictated to as to how they should think.

bdbuddah (Meath) - Posts: 768 - 14/06/2020 20:35:03    2280826

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Replying To Breezy:  ""Left wing governance of the EU" are you kidding me. Good ould "them immagents took all the jobs we wouldnt do anyway" led to Brexit that and UK government always using the EU as the bad guy and never explaining the benefits like how you never see a "co-funded by the EU" sign like you would here also both the UK and trump feed into a starry nostalgia for a perfect white working class world that never existed.

Censoring and banning stuff happens already which is why we dont have NAZI flags and golliwogs so why cant people ask to add stuff to the list now Im not saying some dont go too far in what they ask for but they are allowed ask"
"Are you kidding me" so the 16 million plus who voted for brexit did solely because of immigration, no doubt it was 1 of many major reasons for brexit because whenever a discussion of immigration came up and legitimate concerns were raised you had PC left-wing leaning celebrities like Russell Brand and Eddie Izzard shouting racist and bigot to shut down discussion and debate. I know plenty of decent people in Britain who voted for brexit because they felt France and Germany were trying to dictate to the rest of Europe and they didn't want laws made for them in a largely undemocratic parliament that they had no say or control over. I have visited Italy twice in the last 4 years north and south and from talking to the locals they are only waiting for their opportunity to vote and they are gone also. And if you don't think there is no left-wing figures trying to influence the EU especially a billionaire Hungarian born US citizen you are sadly mistaken.

As for the USA, Trump did pray on people's prejudices but you also had decent people and families from the middle-class suddenly with no work, struggling to pay bills and struggling to feed their children and they got sick of politician's doing nothing for them as they watched elites getting richer. Then Trump came along with his make America great again message and he told people what they wanted to hear to get support and mix that with the absolute tripe news media they have over there it worked, then again he hadn't much to beat in Hillary Clinton.

To shorten a long story and to have both subjects simplified people felt they weren't being listened to or their concerns taking seriously by their governments so they voted against the establishment and it turned into 1 big mess.

On your point of allowing the left to ask for change, they can ask away but I myself won't entertain their political correctness b.s, the more they get, the more they want and the more radical they become. I could talk alot more on this subject but I don't want to go off topic further and I find the conversation is getting a bit too heavy and not appropriate for a community and sport based website like hoganstand.com. The lack of sport must be getting to me I suppose.

DUALSUPPORT (Limerick) - Posts: 718 - 14/06/2020 20:46:10    2280829

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Replying To Htaem:  "No idea.

This is your scenario, what do you think would happen?"
No, this is your scenario as well.
You're saying let people fly the flag. If people do fly that flag, what do you think will happen after, the consequences, that's all.

extranjero (Wexford) - Posts: 366 - 14/06/2020 20:51:58    2280830

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Replying To TheUsername:  "How would people feel if for example Gaelfest took off and there was a cross community development and popularity in GAA in Belfast/Antrim and Antrim fulfilled its true potential in a neo or new Irishism so to speak.

Would people be happy with the Union Jack, Orange Order Flag or the Ulster Banner Flag at GAA games, if Unionists became interested in Gaelic Games. Would people be offended, look for bannings.

I'm just thinking of the powerful emotions flags as symbols can stir up whether they be intentional or not. What flags are right/overreactions and what flags arent/should be banned."
Maybe all flags should be banned. Ban one type and you've taken a step on to the slippery slope.

Cockney_Cat (UK) - Posts: 1116 - 14/06/2020 20:54:03    2280831

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Replying To extranjero:  "No, this is your scenario as well.
You're saying let people fly the flag. If people do fly that flag, what do you think will happen after, the consequences, that's all."
Could be none, it's been waved before numerous times in the past and I don't know of any consequences. But now that there's a clearly stated ban they could issue warnings or bans for those who wave the flags. Have they outlined the penalties?

Anyway can you get to your point please, I'm not sure where you're going with this.

Htaem (Meath) - Posts: 8583 - 14/06/2020 21:04:15    2280833

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Replying To bdbuddah:  "The flag was a military flag in a war (not the national flag). It was the flag of Lee's army. That alone was it's original meaning The biggest reason it became famous was that despite facing a much stronger opponent this army won a lot of battles.
Anyway I actually know a lot of the bad things associated with this flag, I am purposefully giving another perspective as this is what some people see in it.
It's better if you if people concentrate on the issue of actual discrimination rather than dictating to people what flag they are allowed to display. It's bad in a democracy when people are dictated to as to how they should think."
An army that was fighting a war to retain the right to buy and sell other human beings for profit.

The Cork County Board don't want to associated with a flag that represents fighting for the right to buy and sell other human beings for profit. We can do as much mental gymnastics and attach as many other meanings to the flag as we want but we cannot change the fact that it represents fighting a war to retain the right to buy and sell other human beings for profit. You cannot ignore the past or make it go away just because you don't like it.

Cork GAA are perfectly entitled, in a democracy, to dictate what flags are flown in their grounds.

MesAmis (Dublin) - Posts: 13145 - 14/06/2020 21:06:21    2280835

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Replying To MesAmis:  "An army that was fighting a war to retain the right to buy and sell other human beings for profit.

The Cork County Board don't want to associated with a flag that represents fighting for the right to buy and sell other human beings for profit. We can do as much mental gymnastics and attach as many other meanings to the flag as we want but we cannot change the fact that it represents fighting a war to retain the right to buy and sell other human beings for profit. You cannot ignore the past or make it go away just because you don't like it.

Cork GAA are perfectly entitled, in a democracy, to dictate what flags are flown in their grounds."
When you read up about it and realise the issue which resulted in the civil war was not the right of southerners to own slaves but whether they could bring these slaves to the western frontier (where they were competing in business with northerners) you realise the war was not as straight forward as you first thought. It's funny people here now will lecture you telling you we should put aside political considerations when commentating Irishmen who faught in the British army in the first (& second) world war but can't understand how this army flag associated with absolutely huge numbers of deaths for some in America can mean a lot to some people who are normal people.

bdbuddah (Meath) - Posts: 768 - 14/06/2020 23:00:06    2280847

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Replying To TheUsername:  "How would people feel if for example Gaelfest took off and there was a cross community development and popularity in GAA in Belfast/Antrim and Antrim fulfilled its true potential in a neo or new Irishism so to speak.

Would people be happy with the Union Jack, Orange Order Flag or the Ulster Banner Flag at GAA games, if Unionists became interested in Gaelic Games. Would people be offended, look for bannings.

I'm just thinking of the powerful emotions flags as symbols can stir up whether they be intentional or not. What flags are right/overreactions and what flags arent/should be banned."
Being honest I would not like it but I don't I would have a right to stop them doing it.

bdbuddah (Meath) - Posts: 768 - 14/06/2020 23:09:40    2280850

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Yes the flag should be binned and the Cork fans shouldn't have to be told, they should do it themselves. It is the flag of the Confederacy and represents the states that not only defended and fought for slavery but who also fired on their own country's army. The Confederates were not only racists they were anarchists who refused to accept the democratic wishes of the federal government. Anyone defending the flying of this flag at Cork games should be totally ashamed of themselves.

Ulsterman (Antrim) - Posts: 9294 - 15/06/2020 00:17:11    2280854

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Replying To MesAmis:  "An army that was fighting a war to retain the right to buy and sell other human beings for profit.

The Cork County Board don't want to associated with a flag that represents fighting for the right to buy and sell other human beings for profit. We can do as much mental gymnastics and attach as many other meanings to the flag as we want but we cannot change the fact that it represents fighting a war to retain the right to buy and sell other human beings for profit. You cannot ignore the past or make it go away just because you don't like it.

Cork GAA are perfectly entitled, in a democracy, to dictate what flags are flown in their grounds."
Mes, unfortunately we have heard all these arguments before, its a left wing conspiracy, this is all PC gone wrong, stop being snowflakes, in a democracy you should be allowed do what you want, its the rights of the individual to decide as its not black and white, where does it stop - do we ban Italians flag because the romans had slaves, the list goes on. Ireland is unfortunately no different to the rest of the world when it comes to racism and within the group of people who use these excuses, there will be some who are out and out racists. What my experiences of growing up in Ireland thought me (and then living abroad) is that a lot of Irish people simply don't understand racism, the forms that it comes in and how through the use of these type of symbols it is legitimized. Simple question for the poster who said lets focus on the actual racism, I have is if a say 10yr old Cork child is being though about racism in school and what this flag means to the African American community, what would the child think if it sees it a game in PUC, when the team and the sport he idolizes are playing? Does he think well here is that flag at a GAA game supporting Cork so perhaps what I have been told is not true or never happened as the GAA supports of Cork say so, worse still he begins to believe that the confederation was right.
I will admit that growing up that I would have been a lot like some of the posters here and while there was nobody to discriminate against, I would have told and laughed at jokes about other races, I wouldn't have seen anything wrong with the flag (in fact though it was cool) and underneath it all I would have though that as a white person I was better than anyone of any skin color. As an isolated nation who took a lot of what it knew about the world from across the water, its no great surprise that there are so many people who still feel this way.
I am not one bit surprised about the abuse Stefan Okunbar received. A couple of years ago my son who was born and grew up overseas was playing minor football, he had always been in Ireland during the summers and played with the boys who treated him like he was just one of them, while playing a game that they were winning agains a more fancied side one of the opposing players shouted at him to go back to where he came from - not the worse insult I admit given he is white and the only reason they knew he wasn't from there was his accent - I can just imagine what abuse he would have got had he not been white. He laughed it off but it did hammer home to him how easy it is for racism works in all its forms and how people see differences as something that should be used against the other person.

zinny (Wexford) - Posts: 982 - 15/06/2020 01:05:36    2280857

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Replying To Htaem:  "The Vikings also established Dublin (I know some try to deny it but they did), so can we get them banned as well ;-)

Ps, not sure about the Minnesota Vikings, but I'd say the Washington Redskins days are numbered!! No major opinion on that myself but looking at it objectively I can't imagine the name will last too much longer."
The Vikings did not establish Dublin. Dublin comes from the Gaelic word- Dubh Linn, meaning Black pool. The established a trading post. There was already an Irish Gaelic settlement called Baile Atha Cliatha.

galwayford (Galway) - Posts: 1927 - 15/06/2020 09:52:20    2280870

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Replying To galwayford:  "The Vikings did not establish Dublin. Dublin comes from the Gaelic word- Dubh Linn, meaning Black pool. The established a trading post. There was already an Irish Gaelic settlement called Baile Atha Cliatha."
Nah it was the Vikings, #canceltheDubs

Htaem (Meath) - Posts: 8583 - 15/06/2020 10:44:31    2280875

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It strikes me as either disingenuous or rather naive to think that this cancel culture is going to stop at the Confederate flag or John Mitchel, even if these are probably some of the stronger cases of problematic symbols/naming in GAA circles. Here is a non-exhaustive list of some similar issues which may come up in future and how they might be advocated for:

Some rather uncomfortable writings penned by Padraig Pearse have come to light in recent years, so clubs in Roscommon and Galway might have to be renamed.

There are hundreds of clubs across Ireland named after other Irish nationalists or revolutionaries, many of whom may have killed people. These too may have to go.

Kevin Lynch's GAA club in Derry carries a lot of political baggage given that he was one of the hunger strikers. This is not in the spirit of an inclusive and pluralistic, Ireland.

Pavee are a club with a name suggesting that it is exclusively for the Traveller community. This is non-inclusive.

Any club with "Gaels" in the title suggests that it's exclusively the preserve of white Irish people.

GAA stadia such as Croke Park, MacHale Park, Dr. Cullen Park were named after religious figures. This is not inclusive or non-Christians, atheists or agnostics.

Michael Cusack, the first secretary of the GAA, has been accused by some historians of being an anti-semite. Cusack Park in Ennis and Westmeath would have to go, as would the Cusack Stand in Croke Park.

The Irish tricolour is seen as offensive to many Unionists in the north as they equate it with Republicanism. No more flying of that at inter-county matches nor singing of Amhrán na bhfiann.

Charles Stewart Parnell was an adulterer, this does not set a good example for young people. Any club or stadium named after him should be renamed.

New York GAA fly the stars and stripes, but the US armed forces have been involved in illegal wars, drone strikes, land grabs, the Trail of Tears, nuclear testing. This veneration of that flag cannot continue.

I am not suggesting that some causes shouldn't be considered, or that each case that I have listed above is entirely serious. But any impetus for change should come from the GAA membership, and should not be imposed by the superstructure, whether it's from the Ard-Chomhairle or outside agitators.

Gleebo (Mayo) - Posts: 1803 - 15/06/2020 10:59:09    2280879

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Replying To bdbuddah:  "When you read up about it and realise the issue which resulted in the civil war was not the right of southerners to own slaves but whether they could bring these slaves to the western frontier (where they were competing in business with northerners) you realise the war was not as straight forward as you first thought. It's funny people here now will lecture you telling you we should put aside political considerations when commentating Irishmen who faught in the British army in the first (& second) world war but can't understand how this army flag associated with absolutely huge numbers of deaths for some in America can mean a lot to some people who are normal people."
Exactly, they were fighting for slavery. You can dance around the issue as much as you like but you can't just ignore it because it's inconvenient.

The attempted whitewashing of the flag and the Confederate cause may have been acceptable once but it should no longer be acceptable to whitewash history in such a way.

You can tie yourselves in knots trying to wipe out what the flag represented and still represents but you cannot change what it represents.

It's not snowfalkes, or the liberal PC warriors or other such nonsense. It's about whether Cork GAA want to be associated with a flag that represents pro-slavery and white supremacy. It's that simple.

MesAmis (Dublin) - Posts: 13145 - 15/06/2020 11:27:02    2280884

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Replying To MesAmis:  "Exactly, they were fighting for slavery. You can dance around the issue as much as you like but you can't just ignore it because it's inconvenient.

The attempted whitewashing of the flag and the Confederate cause may have been acceptable once but it should no longer be acceptable to whitewash history in such a way.

You can tie yourselves in knots trying to wipe out what the flag represented and still represents but you cannot change what it represents.

It's not snowfalkes, or the liberal PC warriors or other such nonsense. It's about whether Cork GAA want to be associated with a flag that represents pro-slavery and white supremacy. It's that simple."
You see the world in simple terms, as to the point I made, I take it you don't believe in remembering Irish soldiers who served in the British army in the first word war as it is that 'simple' they served to defend the British empire ?

bdbuddah (Meath) - Posts: 768 - 15/06/2020 11:56:56    2280889

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