National Forum

Should The Rebel Flag Be Banned At Cork Matches?

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Replying To Whammo86:  "I agree to an extent to what you are saying.

My main point is that the lines should be drawn with the specifics of the symbol/flag at hand.

I also don't believe that in this specific case that it's a question of the perpetually offended finding something to get annoyed about.

I can absolutely emphasise with a black person who would find that flag offensive. I think society would be a better place if we do err on the side of understanding and listening to people's genuine grievances.

I think human beings are smart enough to know when something is a part of outrage culture or a something is genuine hurt.

I personally think that the confederate flag is unambiguously racist, others don't agree.

I don't think that's the important question though.

I think we as a society lose very little by eradicating it and gain a lot if more people feel included and heard.

I also think a lot of people try to fog up issues as part of the culture war, which is wrong and unproductive. I try to keep an open mind on things and I would regularly read the opinion pieces of right leaning commentators and IDW types. What always strikes me about these pieces is that they always speak of some sort of homogeneous "left". Phrases like "the left" or snowflakes or woke crowd really irritate me.

It's a tactic to try to undermine people's point of view as being a part of group think and it's wholly wrong. It's intensely irritating and in my mind is really not a reflection of the real world.

Opposition of the confederate flag is to my mind in the broad scheme of things, to my mind at least, shouldn't be a controversial subject and I'll be honest I personally am a little disappointed that it appears not everyone in Irish society agrees with me."
"I personally am a little disappointed that it appears not everyone in Irish society agrees with me."

Shame on all of us.

Cockney_Cat (UK) - Posts: 1115 - 14/06/2020 12:36:53    2280774

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Replying To Whammo86:  "I agree to an extent to what you are saying.

My main point is that the lines should be drawn with the specifics of the symbol/flag at hand.

I also don't believe that in this specific case that it's a question of the perpetually offended finding something to get annoyed about.

I can absolutely emphasise with a black person who would find that flag offensive. I think society would be a better place if we do err on the side of understanding and listening to people's genuine grievances.

I think human beings are smart enough to know when something is a part of outrage culture or a something is genuine hurt.

I personally think that the confederate flag is unambiguously racist, others don't agree.

I don't think that's the important question though.

I think we as a society lose very little by eradicating it and gain a lot if more people feel included and heard.

I also think a lot of people try to fog up issues as part of the culture war, which is wrong and unproductive. I try to keep an open mind on things and I would regularly read the opinion pieces of right leaning commentators and IDW types. What always strikes me about these pieces is that they always speak of some sort of homogeneous "left". Phrases like "the left" or snowflakes or woke crowd really irritate me.

It's a tactic to try to undermine people's point of view as being a part of group think and it's wholly wrong. It's intensely irritating and in my mind is really not a reflection of the real world.

Opposition of the confederate flag is to my mind in the broad scheme of things, to my mind at least, shouldn't be a controversial subject and I'll be honest I personally am a little disappointed that it appears not everyone in Irish society agrees with me."
I think as a society we generally do err of the side of caution, I think we do that naturally, especially when we are meeting new people, you only get one shot at a first impression as they say. And I also think you're right, I also believe most people are smart enough to know when something is a part of outrage culture or a someone is genuine hurt (although that isn't always clear in all cases)

But the squeaky wheel (in this case outrage culture) tends to get oil and that's why we have ridiculous situations like Little Britain and Gone With the Wind being removed, which shouldn't happen.

As for identity politics, left, right or wherever the fcuk, I don't want anything to do with any politically motivated groups, I just want them to leave me out of it and I think many others feel the same.

I have to say I disagree with your last point though, people will disagree on all sorts of things, that's life, so long as we do it peacefully and respect each other, that's the main thing.

Htaem (Meath) - Posts: 8583 - 14/06/2020 12:51:09    2280778

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Replying To Ollie2:  "I'm up for banning the butchers apron alright. It's a horrible site anywhere especially on Irish soil."
That's the thing Ollie, the British Empire surely caused many more deaths, lasted hundreds of years longer and spread far more extensively across the globe than the Confederacy ever did yet the Union Jack is still very socially acceptable and flies high in many countries across the globe.

This is the sort of inconsistency which I call into question, why is one ok but the other is not, surely it's all or nothing when it comes to these issues?

Htaem (Meath) - Posts: 8583 - 14/06/2020 13:02:07    2280779

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Replying To MesAmis:  "'Some people just love telling people what to do'

On that we are agreed.

My central point in all of this is that if in 2020 you choose, out of all your options, to fly the Confederate flag to support your county, then it's logical to assume that you know what it represents and therefore are comfortable associating yourself with what it represents.

I don't think, with all the knowledge that we have, that anyone can be offended by that."
But that's the thing, what the flag represents is not as clear cut as you make out.
It is only recently that the media have become more clear cut as to its meaning.
In the American Civil war the south lost over 250k men out if a population of 9 million. That's an amazingly high number. For a lot of people it's was more a remembrance than anything else. Very few of the these soldiers killed would have been slave owners.
More Americans died in this war than either of the world wars even though the population was a fraction of what it was then. More died in one battle than total American casualties in Vietnam.

bdbuddah (Meath) - Posts: 767 - 14/06/2020 13:02:26    2280780

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Replying To bdbuddah:  "But that's the thing, what the flag represents is not as clear cut as you make out.
It is only recently that the media have become more clear cut as to its meaning.
In the American Civil war the south lost over 250k men out if a population of 9 million. That's an amazingly high number. For a lot of people it's was more a remembrance than anything else. Very few of the these soldiers killed would have been slave owners.
More Americans died in this war than either of the world wars even though the population was a fraction of what it was then. More died in one battle than total American casualties in Vietnam."
The flag has always represented what it represents.

It's true that people have tried over the years to whitewash what it represents but that doesn't change what it represents.

If you associate yourself with that flag (that has no connection to Cork), over all the other options you have as a Cork fan, with all knowledge we have, then it's logical to think that you are happy to be associated with what it represents.

In 2020 you are making a clear choice to go out of your way to associate yourself with that that flag represents.

I understand completely why the Cork County Board don't want to be associated with what the flag represents.

I really don't understand the offence that the Cork County Board not wanting to be associated with pro-slavery and white supremacy has caused people in this thread. Their decision is not about anything else.

MesAmis (Dublin) - Posts: 13145 - 14/06/2020 13:42:39    2280782

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Replying To Htaem:  "That's the thing Ollie, the British Empire surely caused many more deaths, lasted hundreds of years longer and spread far more extensively across the globe than the Confederacy ever did yet the Union Jack is still very socially acceptable and flies high in many countries across the globe.

This is the sort of inconsistency which I call into question, why is one ok but the other is not, surely it's all or nothing when it comes to these issues?"
I'd agree with you 100%. The union Jack in my eyes has always represented tyranny and oppression. It has no place in a modern society as much as a confederate flag. But then again people will see what they want to see .

Bon (Kildare) - Posts: 978 - 14/06/2020 14:48:05    2280789

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Replying To MesAmis:  "The flag has always represented what it represents.

It's true that people have tried over the years to whitewash what it represents but that doesn't change what it represents.

If you associate yourself with that flag (that has no connection to Cork), over all the other options you have as a Cork fan, with all knowledge we have, then it's logical to think that you are happy to be associated with what it represents.

In 2020 you are making a clear choice to go out of your way to associate yourself with that that flag represents.

I understand completely why the Cork County Board don't want to be associated with what the flag represents.

I really don't understand the offence that the Cork County Board not wanting to be associated with pro-slavery and white supremacy has caused people in this thread. Their decision is not about anything else."
Ya mes it's the confederate flag and John Mitchell today, but what will it be tomorrow and the day after that?

In American football you have a team called the Minnesota vikings, should they have to change their name because we know for a fact they were into slavery?

KingdomBoy1 (Kerry) - Posts: 11722 - 14/06/2020 14:58:02    2280790

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Replying To KingdomBoy1:  "Ya mes it's the confederate flag and John Mitchell today, but what will it be tomorrow and the day after that?

In American football you have a team called the Minnesota vikings, should they have to change their name because we know for a fact they were into slavery?"
I agree with MesAmis. We're now knowledgeable enough, or should be, to realize what flags, banners and emblems represent. Years back, this awareness and exposure wasn't so readily available.

As for the union jack, that's a decision that each part of the globe that still flies it, has to make. Should it be flown in Ireland? Personally, I don't think it should.

Should John Mitchell's of Tralee for example change its name because it has become publicly aware that Mitchell was clearly a racist and saw black peoples as being inferior to himself? Well, that's a decision for the boys of Boherbuee to make, and not outsiders.

Some poster, can't remember who, said something about that if it's this thing today, that it will be that thing tomorrow, where is it going to stop. So what? It stops if the thing is wrong. Simple, really. If a club feels that it can no longer abide behind the name of the person that it is named after, that could has to take action.

foreveryoung (USA) - Posts: 31 - 14/06/2020 15:18:00    2280792

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Replying To Bon:  "I'd agree with you 100%. The union Jack in my eyes has always represented tyranny and oppression. It has no place in a modern society as much as a confederate flag. But then again people will see what they want to see ."
To be honest with you Bon, I'm just asking the question, I'm not generally speaking on then ban it bandwagon.

I just question the inconsistency of why so many people are appalled by the confederate flag and but will passively accept the Union Jack. The British Empire were far more destructive and prolific than the Confederacy ever was, it's no contest.

So why is one ok but the other isn't?

Htaem (Meath) - Posts: 8583 - 14/06/2020 15:20:07    2280793

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Replying To KingdomBoy1:  "Ya mes it's the confederate flag and John Mitchell today, but what will it be tomorrow and the day after that?

In American football you have a team called the Minnesota vikings, should they have to change their name because we know for a fact they were into slavery?"
The Vikings also established Dublin (I know some try to deny it but they did), so can we get them banned as well ;-)

Ps, not sure about the Minnesota Vikings, but I'd say the Washington Redskins days are numbered!! No major opinion on that myself but looking at it objectively I can't imagine the name will last too much longer.

Htaem (Meath) - Posts: 8583 - 14/06/2020 15:26:56    2280794

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Replying To MesAmis:  "The flag has always represented what it represents.

It's true that people have tried over the years to whitewash what it represents but that doesn't change what it represents.

If you associate yourself with that flag (that has no connection to Cork), over all the other options you have as a Cork fan, with all knowledge we have, then it's logical to think that you are happy to be associated with what it represents.

In 2020 you are making a clear choice to go out of your way to associate yourself with that that flag represents.

I understand completely why the Cork County Board don't want to be associated with what the flag represents.

I really don't understand the offence that the Cork County Board not wanting to be associated with pro-slavery and white supremacy has caused people in this thread. Their decision is not about anything else."
As I pointed out for many it meant something different than white supremacy but you don't want to hear this.
Personally whether people associate with this flag or not will have little impact on my life. But this way of thinking may in the future effect something I'm interested in.
Someone having a flag is not actually impacting on others rights. If it really bothers you talk to them to try and change their mind but don't impose your opinions on them by banning.
Maybe At Patrick's Day will be next to go. (www.irishcentral.com/news/outrage-as-st-patricks-day-deemed-too-religious-renamed-ogreen-day-142907975-237749791.amp).

bdbuddah (Meath) - Posts: 767 - 14/06/2020 15:37:24    2280795

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Replying To KingdomBoy1:  "Ya mes it's the confederate flag and John Mitchell today, but what will it be tomorrow and the day after that?

In American football you have a team called the Minnesota vikings, should they have to change their name because we know for a fact they were into slavery?"
Then we deal with those issues if they ever arrive.

But until they do they have nothing to do with this issue.

MesAmis (Dublin) - Posts: 13145 - 14/06/2020 15:43:34    2280797

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Replying To Htaem:  "They play the game I suppose, be it hurling or football, whichever is fixed for the day."
But what happens after that? Everyone goes home happy and nothing else is said about it? You don't think there'd be any repercussions?

extranjero (Wexford) - Posts: 366 - 14/06/2020 16:10:35    2280800

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Replying To Htaem:  "That's the thing Ollie, the British Empire surely caused many more deaths, lasted hundreds of years longer and spread far more extensively across the globe than the Confederacy ever did yet the Union Jack is still very socially acceptable and flies high in many countries across the globe.

This is the sort of inconsistency which I call into question, why is one ok but the other is not, surely it's all or nothing when it comes to these issues?"
As an Irish immigrant who arrived in Britain as a young lad with my parents many years ago; just like hundreds of thousands before us, forced reluctantly to leave of our home country. we were grateful for the opportunities our new home gave us. We, generally, worked hard, assimilated with the natives, and got on with our lives, without complaint,; even though we were racially abused by a small minority.

Are you suggesting that as an Irishman, fully aware of our turbulent history involving Britain, I should now start demanding that the Union Flag (not Jack, just correcting your ignorance) should no longer be flown here? And what about (for starters) the statues of Oliver Cromwell all around the country, do you want them pulled down?

Cockney_Cat (UK) - Posts: 1115 - 14/06/2020 16:14:29    2280801

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Replying To bdbuddah:  "As I pointed out for many it meant something different than white supremacy but you don't want to hear this.
Personally whether people associate with this flag or not will have little impact on my life. But this way of thinking may in the future effect something I'm interested in.
Someone having a flag is not actually impacting on others rights. If it really bothers you talk to them to try and change their mind but don't impose your opinions on them by banning.
Maybe At Patrick's Day will be next to go. (www.irishcentral.com/news/outrage-as-st-patricks-day-deemed-too-religious-renamed-ogreen-day-142907975-237749791.amp)."
The flag represents what it represents. You can't change that.

If it represents something different to you that doesn't replace the original meaning or wipe it away.

I'm hearing all of what people are saying but I won't whitewash and remove history. That is dangerous.

MesAmis (Dublin) - Posts: 13145 - 14/06/2020 16:34:27    2280804

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Replying To extranjero:  "But what happens after that? Everyone goes home happy and nothing else is said about it? You don't think there'd be any repercussions?"
Well there certainly could be repercussions, I mean we're living at a time when Gone With The Wind has been deemed as too extreme for our poor little eyes, so nothing would surprise me!

Htaem (Meath) - Posts: 8583 - 14/06/2020 16:42:03    2280806

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I can understand the context for the Confederate flag (not the Confederate War flag) coming under scrutiny, people associated the Rebel County with the Rebel States. But the flag is exactly what it says and there is no excuse for flying it, there are more colourful options. However, what about Palestinian Flags I am sure Israeli Ambassador will object. We have to be very carefuly though. As for Vikings that is just nuts, Brian Boru's name reveals he collected tax from these slaves and in fact Gaelic Ireland operated slavery up to the early middle ages. But it is madness gone mad to start going down that route. In the balance of things, the Irish where colonies not colonist's, if they fought in the Confederate army it was for the same reason other Irish men fought with the Union. Irish people had genocide and terrible laws visited on them in the 16th, 17th, 18th and 19th centuries. Just Read Spencer's "A view of the present state of Ireland" hair-raising stuff. Courtier like Raleigh, Drake and Radcliffe committed horrific atrocity. Penal laws where only repealed when Catholics where emancipated 4 years before the abolision of slavery, penal laws dating back to the 14th century. We where injured party, that shouldn't excuse the rotten apples amongst us, put surely flying the Confederate flag now is an affront.

arock (Dublin) - Posts: 4434 - 14/06/2020 16:57:48    2280808

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Replying To Trump2020:  "Go back and read the post I was answering...he said if there were NO BAN on the Flags what would happen and my answer was to that."
But, THERE IS A BAN. I was stating what is happening in the real world, here and now; not some make believe one.

Cockney_Cat (UK) - Posts: 1115 - 14/06/2020 17:13:08    2280810

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There is no need for so many words - my response is YES !

I am glad to see that my own Cork County Board CEO, Tracey Kennedy, has implemented the policy of flag confiscation.

omahant (USA) - Posts: 1824 - 14/06/2020 17:57:13    2280814

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Replying To bdbuddah:  "But that's the thing, what the flag represents is not as clear cut as you make out.
It is only recently that the media have become more clear cut as to its meaning.
In the American Civil war the south lost over 250k men out if a population of 9 million. That's an amazingly high number. For a lot of people it's was more a remembrance than anything else. Very few of the these soldiers killed would have been slave owners.
More Americans died in this war than either of the world wars even though the population was a fraction of what it was then. More died in one battle than total American casualties in Vietnam."
This is the "Lost Cause of the Confederacy" argument, where people try to retrospectively whitewash history and argue that the confederacy and the confederate flag stood for anything other than slavery.

They fought for an immoral cause, and no matter how many people died it doesn't justify using the flag of that immoral cause to remember them. They could as easily use the US flag since they were all American, but they don't.

CastleBravo (Meath) - Posts: 1391 - 14/06/2020 18:18:08    2280817

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