National Forum

Should The Rebel Flag Be Banned At Cork Matches?

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Replying To MesAmis:  "It is incredible the amount of who get offended by the removal of a white supremacist pro-slavery flag.

Their argument of "it's PC gone mad" or "where will it end?" is pure strawman whataboutery.

It's pretty simple, with all the knowledge we have in 2020.

You either think it's OK to fly white supremacist pro-slavery flags at GAA matches or you don't. It's not about anything else, the above is all its about.

A lot of people on this thread seem to think it is OK which is sad in this day and age."
Reads a bit like Greta Thunberg there Mes, cool down man, we're just having a discussion.

Anyway, I live a pretty ordinary life, I have friends of all creeds and colours, my interests include reading, working out, spending time with family and the occassional spot of golf etc

But I have to say I had no idea I was a raging white supremacist for not supporting the removal of the confederate flag from Cork gaa games or not supporting the wave of left wing bans nor the perpetually offended but there you go, every day is a learning day :-)

Htaem (Meath) - Posts: 8583 - 13/06/2020 12:06:35    2280610

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Replying To KingdomBoy1:  "Certain people are trying to change history by whitewashing certain people and events out of it because it causes them shame of some kind, history is there to be learnt from and people who don't learn from history are doomed to repeat it.

During the 14/15 hundreds the time of the Spanish inquisition lots of books on history and medicines were destroyed because it didn't fit into the way they wanted us to think, Hitler tryed the same thing in Germany, Kim Jong un has done semilar in North Korea, this is not good.

I think its good for people to have different views on things once those view aren't shoved down people's throats."
100%

Diversity and difference of opinion are great and those who fail to learn from the past are doomed to repeat it.

Htaem (Meath) - Posts: 8583 - 13/06/2020 12:12:51    2280611

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Replying To Whammo86:  "You know that the confederate battle flag is the only thing available to people who want to support Cork."
Haha ok well if it's the only thing available sure what else can they do?? :-)

Ah I'm only joking, I know you meant to say 'not the only thing available' and yes I am aware of that.

Anyway, what's it to you which flags Cork people buy, does it honestly take that much out of your day?

As a matter of interest do you think Fr Ted is racist, they made fun of Chinese people, surely that's not acceptable?!

Htaem (Meath) - Posts: 8583 - 13/06/2020 12:18:18    2280612

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Replying To Whammo86:  "I am listening to you. I still strongly don't agree with you."
Well that's ok, disgareement is fine so long as we remain civil.

For what it's worth I don't strongly disgaree with you, I partly agree with you in that I believe it is important to listen to people and re-evaluate my own views.

May not always come to the same conclusion as you though, but that's life.

Htaem (Meath) - Posts: 8583 - 13/06/2020 12:43:10    2280614

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Replying To Htaem:  "Haha ok well if it's the only thing available sure what else can they do?? :-)

Ah I'm only joking, I know you meant to say 'not the only thing available' and yes I am aware of that.

Anyway, what's it to you which flags Cork people buy, does it honestly take that much out of your day?

As a matter of interest do you think Fr Ted is racist, they made fun of Chinese people, surely that's not acceptable?!"
It matters to me what Cork supporters bring to matches because it can make the GAA a less inclusive organisation for black people. The GAA as an organisation is something that means a lot to me and I want it to operate in positive manner. The GAA has a large cultural impact on Irish society which I also want to be inclusive of others.

The Chinese episode of Father Ted is racist. Do I think it should be banned, I'm not sure to be honest.

The confederate battle flag is not equivalent to an episode of Father Ted though.

As I've said each particular topic should be discussed on its own merits. The confederate flag in this day and age is well beyond acceptable and if you're best reason for keeping it is "what next?", well I don't think that's a good enough reason to keep it.

Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 3114 - 13/06/2020 12:51:14    2280616

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Replying To MesAmis:  "They're supporting Cork by waving a white supremacist pro-slavery flag.

If you're waving a white supremacist pro-slavery flag in 2020 I don't think think someone coming to the conclusion that you're a bit racist is an illogical conclusion."
Mes wasn't it you that said on here 1 time that offence was never given that it was taken.

So it's up to every1 if they take offence.

Dave chappelle is 1 of my favorite comedians and in his latest show he takes aim at the lefties and leftism. its well worth a watch on Netflix, you should watch it before its removed.

KingdomBoy1 (Kerry) - Posts: 11740 - 13/06/2020 12:53:41    2280617

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Replying To Whammo86:  "
Replying To Cockney_Cat:  " "It's a bit of push back on what's deemed acceptable"

Who 'deems' what is acceptable?"
The collective And then consensus through discussion"
When and where, and by who, was the discussion regarding the banning of Farther Ted and Gone with The Wind?

Cockney_Cat (UK) - Posts: 1116 - 13/06/2020 12:54:26    2280618

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Replying To Htaem:  "Reads a bit like Greta Thunberg there Mes, cool down man, we're just having a discussion.

Anyway, I live a pretty ordinary life, I have friends of all creeds and colours, my interests include reading, working out, spending time with family and the occassional spot of golf etc

But I have to say I had no idea I was a raging white supremacist for not supporting the removal of the confederate flag from Cork gaa games or not supporting the wave of left wing bans nor the perpetually offended but there you go, every day is a learning day :-)"
I don't know what Greta Thunberg has to do with this? She's an environmentalist no?

She has nothing to do with allowing or not allowing white supremacist pro-slavery flags at GAA matches. Or maybe I've missed something.

I also don't see what your lifestyle or family has to do with the removal of white supremacist pro-slavery flags from GAA grounds either?

I'm not offended by the removal of white supremacist pro-slavery flags from GAA grounds at all so don't know what the 'perpetually offended' reference is about either.

We can engage in whataboutery or can have a discussion.

The issue is whether or not you're in support of people flying white supremacist pro-slavery flags in GAA grounds. It isn't about anything else.

MesAmis (Dublin) - Posts: 13145 - 13/06/2020 13:04:10    2280619

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I recently went into my garden shed to get my lawnmower..
It was a hot day, perfect for sports but considering the circumstances I decided to cut my grass anyway.

Imagine my horror when I saw a container of White spirits left on top of a tin of black metal paint..
The obvious racial overtones of this blatant subjugation of an oppressed ethnic minority left me horrified.

The offending bottle of non ethnic, gender neutral, cleansing binary fluid was removed with due recompense offered to the poor aul tin of black paint..
(I put it on a higher shelf to indicate its historical suffering at the hands of the racist, white privileged black paint removing from paintbrush liquid.)

I'm thinking of starting an online poll to rename said spirits, I'm sure PBP will be very supportive and I hope I can count on the support of many of the posters on here...
(BPM) black paint matters...

Ps. im really starting to miss hurling and football:(

skillet (Limerick) - Posts: 711 - 13/06/2020 13:06:28    2280620

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Replying To MesAmis:  "It is incredible the amount of who get offended by the removal of a white supremacist pro-slavery flag.

Their argument of "it's PC gone mad" or "where will it end?" is pure strawman whataboutery.

It's pretty simple, with all the knowledge we have in 2020.

You either think it's OK to fly white supremacist pro-slavery flags at GAA matches or you don't. It's not about anything else, the above is all its about.

A lot of people on this thread seem to think it is OK which is sad in this day and age."
It's very dangerous when someone likes you tries to control the narrative. You would really do yourself a favor by actually learning something about that Flag and the Civil War itself instead of painting yourself into a very narrow box. At the height of slavery in the South only 2-3% owned slaves and I already pointed out that some of the Northern Generals did too so I'd say the vast majority of Southerners were not fighting for slavery that they didn't even participate in. Slavery was on its way out in the Western Hemisphere as seen in Brazil and other countries. Even without the Civil War slavery would have been eradicated in the USA. George Washington the First US President owned slaves and his picture is still on the US Dollar.

Trump2020 (Galway) - Posts: 1083 - 13/06/2020 13:09:22    2280622

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Replying To Htaem:  "They're just supporting Cork though, I'd imagine most of them are not 'white supremacists' who support slavery.

Also, flags hold no actually meaning, we humans attach meaning to them. Now to my mind someone waving a Conferdate flag at a Cork game is almost certainly doing so to support his or her county, I doubt very much they're waving it to support the instiution of slavery.

Simply put, to them it means 'I support Cork', not 'I support slavery'.

Do you think they're supporting slavery? Also as a matter of interest, do you also support he removal of apparently 'offensive' material such as Little Britain and Gone With the Wind?"
I think in this day and age with all the information available to us it isn't a good idea to fly white supremacist pro-slavery flags in GAA grounds.

I really fail to see what is so controversial about the above statement that has gotten people so offended.

I've never seen Gone with the Wind or Little Britain and am unaware that they've been removed from the anyone being able to watch them. They also, crucially, have nothing to do with a discussion about whether or not it is right to fly white supremacist pro-slavery flags in GAA grounds.

MesAmis (Dublin) - Posts: 13145 - 13/06/2020 13:09:40    2280623

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Replying To Whammo86:  "You know what I say if I hear a woke person say that Ireland is as bad as Apartheid era South Africa or Nazi Germany, I say you're a fool go read a book.

I'm very leftist. There are absolutely idiots out there who make dumb arguments for the sake of some intellectual, moral purity.

It's not the reality of where most people and most right minded people are at. It's scaremongering to think that's in anyway the consensus.

There's plenty of people for instance who care about social justice who are annoyed about the cancellation of some of these shows because it's detracting against their core message.

I've a lot more faith in the collective of human intelligence that it can actually come up with a real answer to these questions."
That's a fair point and thanks for responding. Hard and all as it is to believe from my posts here, I consider myself left wing too: I believe in trade unionism, a fair day's pay, an end to zero hours contracts, a multilateral international system, redistribution, a Tobin tax on the financial sector etc.

I am not even against a conversation on racism in the West or drawing attention to institutional racism, because it does exist. Where I draw the line is some of the tactics of the woke crowd (especially on social media) which I believe are harming the left. These are the rioting, looting and vigilantism that we are seeing, as well as the shaming and doxxing of those with alternative views. The perpetual cult of victim hood exhibited on the far left is also driving many people away, I feel.

It is this sort of left-wing platform which has ensured the election of Trump, Bolsonaro, Johnson etc. rather than those advocating for a UBI or a living wage. If you adopt an attitude of "you're either with us or against us", without room for compromise, qualification or dissent, then many will choose "against us".

Gleebo (Mayo) - Posts: 1803 - 13/06/2020 13:11:00    2280624

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Replying To Cockney_Cat:  ""As for clubs being named after John Mitchell, there's probably a conversation to be had over that too. These conversations should be had," Where was the "conversation" with the Cork supporters over the confederate flag? Tracey Kennedy (Cork GAA chairperson) decided it was banned that's it ("As far as I'm concerned, the Confederate flag is banned,")."
As far as I'm concerned sounds like a personal opinion to me so I'm sure many could and did give counter opinions

Breezy (Limerick) - Posts: 1106 - 13/06/2020 13:16:41    2280625

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Replying To catch22:  "Isn't St Patrick's day a celebration of the Irish. Sure aren't some Irish people racists so maybe that needs to be looked at too."
If Irish independence was about leaving the UK because we were pro slavery then yes we should look at Paddy's Day.
Some Irish are racists is different to the confederacy which was founded to protect the slave trade

Breezy (Limerick) - Posts: 1106 - 13/06/2020 13:19:06    2280626

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Replying To Cockney_Cat:  "
Replying To Whammo86:  "[quote=Cockney_Cat:  " "It's a bit of push back on what's deemed acceptable"

Who 'deems' what is acceptable?"
The collective And then consensus through discussion"
When and where, and by who, was the discussion regarding the banning of Farther Ted and Gone with The Wind?"]There was no ban of Gone with the Wind.

Gone with the Wind was removed by one private platform.

Their own decision making processes would have come to that decision through their own processes, after listening to criticism. Is it the right thing to do? I don't know but the people who did pull it have plenty of their own agency to reverse their decision is they so choose.

There's been no ban of Father Ted as yet that I am aware of.

Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 3114 - 13/06/2020 13:21:36    2280627

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Replying To ArmaghCat:  "I find Mitchel's views on slavery abhorent but not a single GAA club is named after him for that reason....he played a very important role in highlighting the horrors of the famine on the native population of Ireland including challenging the colonial mindset that was deliberately failing people to death, poverty or emigration.....he was exiled for that work and wrote a significant book Jail Journal.....those are the reasons he was honoured by GAA clubs....he is a very complex character being a protestant who supported the rights of both Catholics and indeed the freedom of the island BUT he also had disgusting and totally unacceptable views on racial matters....I'm sure some clubs are/will grapple with this issue but to suggest in any shape or form that his views on racism had anything to do with clubs being named after him is farcical....."
I'm certainly not suggesting that any club took on the name because of his support for slavery and I for one and I'm sure many others including members of the clubs involved were unaware of his views on race and slavery. However now that these views of Mitchel's are more "out there" maybe members of the clubs will be uncomfortable with the use of his name, maybe not. I'm not sure if complex is the right word for his views regarding Catholics in contrast to his views on Africans, I think hypocritical is a more apt word.

sligo joe (Dublin) - Posts: 205 - 13/06/2020 13:21:59    2280628

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Replying To skillet:  "I recently went into my garden shed to get my lawnmower..
It was a hot day, perfect for sports but considering the circumstances I decided to cut my grass anyway.

Imagine my horror when I saw a container of White spirits left on top of a tin of black metal paint..
The obvious racial overtones of this blatant subjugation of an oppressed ethnic minority left me horrified.

The offending bottle of non ethnic, gender neutral, cleansing binary fluid was removed with due recompense offered to the poor aul tin of black paint..
(I put it on a higher shelf to indicate its historical suffering at the hands of the racist, white privileged black paint removing from paintbrush liquid.)

I'm thinking of starting an online poll to rename said spirits, I'm sure PBP will be very supportive and I hope I can count on the support of many of the posters on here...
(BPM) black paint matters...

Ps. im really starting to miss hurling and football:("
No one is talking about renaming black paint. If white spirit was used as the symbol of Nazis then yes maybe then we would talk about but we are talking about a flag that was an actual symbol of racism which is different

Breezy (Limerick) - Posts: 1106 - 13/06/2020 13:23:42    2280629

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Replying To Trump2020:  "It's very dangerous when someone likes you tries to control the narrative. You would really do yourself a favor by actually learning something about that Flag and the Civil War itself instead of painting yourself into a very narrow box. At the height of slavery in the South only 2-3% owned slaves and I already pointed out that some of the Northern Generals did too so I'd say the vast majority of Southerners were not fighting for slavery that they didn't even participate in. Slavery was on its way out in the Western Hemisphere as seen in Brazil and other countries. Even without the Civil War slavery would have been eradicated in the USA. George Washington the First US President owned slaves and his picture is still on the US Dollar."
I'm not trying to control any narrative, others are trying to make this about TV shows or the colour of Sligo's jerseys or any number of other issues. Another poster even brought Greta Thunberg into the discussion for no apparent reason.

The flag of the Confederacy represented a country that briefly existed for the sole reason to protect their right to buy and sell human beings to do with what they pleased.

I think that such a flag, that represents white supremacy and pro-slavery has no place at a GAA ground.

Others disagree and think its fine to have white supremacist pro-slavery flags at GAA but I find their reasons perplexing to say the least.

MesAmis (Dublin) - Posts: 13145 - 13/06/2020 13:28:46    2280630

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Replying To Htaem:  "They're supporting Cork, not slavery, what's the issue?

Ok let's say Little Britain is racist, then by your logic surely Fr Ted must go for the Chinese episode, also surely the Simpsons must go for it's many stereotypical racial depictions (not least of the average white man), also interestingly White Chicks has not been removed from anywhere to my knowledge (personally I couldn't care less, but it seems a bit of a double standard!).

Anyway what say you to the above, ban'em all if you're being consistent."
Little Britain was a white guy playing black for laughs with no point or sense of message. Father Ted was satire that at least pointed to the idea that the racism in that episode was wrong.

And it's not like cork are short of other flags to pick from which I hear the have taken on board in Cork.

Lots of people on here claiming woke people are getting offended for other people for the sake of getting offended seem themselves to be getting offended about a Cork issue despite not being from Cork

Breezy (Limerick) - Posts: 1106 - 13/06/2020 13:30:10    2280631

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Replying To KingdomBoy1:  "Mes wasn't it you that said on here 1 time that offence was never given that it was taken.

So it's up to every1 if they take offence.

Dave chappelle is 1 of my favorite comedians and in his latest show he takes aim at the lefties and leftism. its well worth a watch on Netflix, you should watch it before its removed."
I don't remember saying that to be honest. Maybe I did.

But I'm not offended by the removal of a white supremacist pro-slavery flag from GAA grounds.

If someone can convince me of the reason why I should be offended by the removal of white supremacist pro-slavery flags then I'm all ears.

This has nothing to do with lefties or leftism or right wing or being woke or whatever.

You're either in favour of people being allowed fly the Confederate flag, aware of what it represents, or you're not in favour.

It's a simple question. Everything else is pure noise designed to distract from the issue.

MesAmis (Dublin) - Posts: 13145 - 13/06/2020 13:36:35    2280632

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