National Forum

Should The Rebel Flag Be Banned At Cork Matches?

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Replying To bloodyban:  "The Confederate Flag was always flown to represent Cork being the rebel county..almost a Texas of Ireland due to its huge size in relation to other counties . It's out if control at the moment. I'd a history teacher who taught us that General Lee was the greatest commander and all round decent guy of the Civil war. Iv read alot about him and my opinion is the same. All round decent man loyal to his state.
The Palestinian flags being flown is annoying,should be banned. The amount of terrorists that came out of there is shocking. Its gas how it's the Nordies and rough Dubs that Fly it here...like they are brothers in arms or something crazy ..."
Palestine flags get flown by people who dont support the abuse of Palestinian people by Israel and their allies. Nothing wrong with that.
Lee was skilled in battle no doubt but his opposition to equality for blacks is major negative against him.

KillingFields (Limerick) - Posts: 1637 - 19/06/2020 17:09:08    2281293

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Replying To Cockney_Cat:  "
Replying To zinny:  "[quote=cavanman47:  "The reason Cork fans choose that particular flag is obvious tho? Well it seems obvious to me - it is a reference to being a southern county, it's predominantly red, and it's a reference to their status as the Rebel County.


Interesting you mention Westmeath - if someone were to stand near you at a Westmeath game and wave a Qatar flag (maroon and white), would you ask them to take it down given that nation's links to what is essentially modern day slavery?

And what about this request from Boyle GAA to their fans:

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Were they being insensitive choosing that image?"
I would say nearly everybody will accept that when originally used the Cork fans intentions were never to lend any legitimacy to white supremacists but by now that should no longer be the case as there is no excuse for not knowing what the flag represents.
As for other Nations Flags, my view would be that out of courtesy and respect to the Nations Flags the should never be used at GAA games other that for official use. The Qatar flag represents the Nation of Qatar and while there may be some questionable labour practices in the country the Flag does not represent a particular cause."
"while there may be some questionable labour practices in the country"

May be? Is this down to your ignorance, or are you some sort of apologist for the Qatari regime?

There is no maybe about it."]No, I am not apologizing for anything with it comes to Qatar but I do claim some ignorance on what has been happening there since they won the world cup as I switched off anything to do with Qatar and the World Cup once that happened. However the issue of migrant labour (what many would call exploitation) is not just an issue in Qatar and even broader still, the use of cheap labour in emerging market countries just so that the west gorge themselves on consumer products is a moral dilemma that we all are accountable for. The challenge would be to find a country in the world hasn't got its human rights issues (including our own) but getting back to this specific issue their flag does not represent a cause or specific issue like the confederate flag does.

zinny (Wexford) - Posts: 982 - 19/06/2020 17:18:31    2281294

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Replying To KillingFields:  "Palestine flags get flown by people who dont support the abuse of Palestinian people by Israel and their allies. Nothing wrong with that.
Lee was skilled in battle no doubt but his opposition to equality for blacks is major negative against him."
At least there is no ignorance or fake meaning to the Palestine flags they are being honest about the politics and what they stand for

Breezy (Limerick) - Posts: 1106 - 19/06/2020 18:42:17    2281299

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Replying To zinny:  "
Replying To Cockney_Cat:  "[quote=zinny:  "[quote=cavanman47:  "The reason Cork fans choose that particular flag is obvious tho? Well it seems obvious to me - it is a reference to being a southern county, it's predominantly red, and it's a reference to their status as the Rebel County.


Interesting you mention Westmeath - if someone were to stand near you at a Westmeath game and wave a Qatar flag (maroon and white), would you ask them to take it down given that nation's links to what is essentially modern day slavery?

And what about this request from Boyle GAA to their fans:

link

Were they being insensitive choosing that image?"
I would say nearly everybody will accept that when originally used the Cork fans intentions were never to lend any legitimacy to white supremacists but by now that should no longer be the case as there is no excuse for not knowing what the flag represents.
As for other Nations Flags, my view would be that out of courtesy and respect to the Nations Flags the should never be used at GAA games other that for official use. The Qatar flag represents the Nation of Qatar and while there may be some questionable labour practices in the country the Flag does not represent a particular cause."
"while there may be some questionable labour practices in the country"

May be? Is this down to your ignorance, or are you some sort of apologist for the Qatari regime?

There is no maybe about it."]No, I am not apologizing for anything with it comes to Qatar but I do claim some ignorance on what has been happening there since they won the world cup as I switched off anything to do with Qatar and the World Cup once that happened. However the issue of migrant labour (what many would call exploitation) is not just an issue in Qatar and even broader still, the use of cheap labour in emerging market countries just so that the west gorge themselves on consumer products is a moral dilemma that we all are accountable for. The challenge would be to find a country in the world hasn't got its human rights issues (including our own) but getting back to this specific issue their flag does not represent a cause or specific issue like the confederate flag does."]Well it represents their state.

And the state is building massive stadia to host the world cup they've been widely accused of illegally winning the right to host, and using exploited workers to build said stadia, endangering their lives in the process.

The state built their new airport where deaths went unreported.

The state is building the vast majority of apartment blocks in their high end neighbourhood, the pearl, and again using exploited workers to do so.

They are preventing said workers from leaving the country and returning home too. These workers literally have no choice but to work and live in inhumane conditions, typically for a 2 year term (expect that to become indefinite if the demand for building requires it), while the local Qataris sit back and enjoy government given money funded on the blood, sweat, tears and death of exploited overseas workers.

cavanman47 (Cavan) - Posts: 4137 - 19/06/2020 18:50:29    2281300

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Replying To WanPintWin:  "In fairness, they're the current flags of UN recognised states. The confederate flag is not and there's a reason why. ;)"
The Khmer Rouge were the UN recognised government of Cambodia until the 1990s!

cavanman47 (Cavan) - Posts: 4137 - 19/06/2020 18:58:41    2281302

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Replying To bloodyban:  "The Confederate Flag was always flown to represent Cork being the rebel county..almost a Texas of Ireland due to its huge size in relation to other counties . It's out if control at the moment. I'd a history teacher who taught us that General Lee was the greatest commander and all round decent guy of the Civil war. Iv read alot about him and my opinion is the same. All round decent man loyal to his state.
The Palestinian flags being flown is annoying,should be banned. The amount of terrorists that came out of there is shocking. Its gas how it's the Nordies and rough Dubs that Fly it here...like they are brothers in arms or something crazy ..."
There is no way a Munster rugby flag should be flown at GAA games imho.

galwayford (Galway) - Posts: 1927 - 19/06/2020 22:18:28    2281321

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Replying To galwayford:  "There is no way a Munster rugby flag should be flown at GAA games imho."
Why, who have Munster offended?

Cockney_Cat (UK) - Posts: 1116 - 19/06/2020 23:22:38    2281333

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Replying To WanPintWin:  "In fairness, they're the current flags of UN recognised states. The confederate flag is not and there's a reason why. ;)"
The reason why is solely because the South didn't win the American civil war. If it had, there is little doubt that the Stars and Bars, rather than the Stars and Stripes would be flying over UN HQ today. I can think of several countries that are recognized sovereign legal states who are quite happy to turn a blind eye to human trafficking.

There are many countries in the UN today that were forged out of fire and the sword, ruthless suppression of indigenous peoples or simply for geopolitical reasons, rather than any strong claim to nationhood.

The Kurds have a stronger claim to nationhood, strictly speaking, than settler societies such as Israel or South Africa. But the great power politics of the day ensured that their lands would be divided into four or five different states, and so it will in all likelihood never become a sovereign state.

The UN simply tries to uphold the Westphalian system of international order which is highly imperfect, though an improvement on what went before (30 Years War etc.) It is hobbled by the fact that governments tend to be very short sighted and very self-interested, as we are seeing with the obstruction of the International Criminal Court, for instance.

Gleebo (Mayo) - Posts: 1803 - 19/06/2020 23:26:21    2281334

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Replying To cavanman47:  "The Khmer Rouge were the UN recognised government of Cambodia until the 1990s!"
As was the Soviet Union whose regime had a terrible human rights record. Their flag was still the national flag of an official country.
The confederate flag is not recognised internationally at all and doesn't represent any sovereign state. In today's context, it's a representation of an ideology that no right-minded person would agree with.
There's a reason people don't fly the flag of 1930s Germany.

WanPintWin (Galway) - Posts: 876 - 20/06/2020 00:22:16    2281338

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Replying To Whammo86:  "I don't going around looking for things to be offended by. If you'd asked me 15 years ago I was completely ignorant of the flag.

I'm not anymore.

I realise it's a racist symbol. I don't think the Cork fans that brought it to games for years are racist, most likely also ignorant.

The meaning of the flag is way more clear cut in the world than the apologists on here would have you believe. I think if it's pointed out to you the meaning of the flag and you continue to then use it, you're at best happy to associate yourself with racist symbology.

In my life, I'm not and the GAA I'm glad isn't either now.

I didn't go out to find offence. I live in the real world and listen to others and learn the nature of that flag. It sickens me now I know of it.

There have now been 6 lynchings of black people in Southern States in the US in recent weeks."
6 lynchings? Allegedly! Please use that word! Every single one is listed as a suicide, but yeah I understand no smoke without fire etc etc etc and please please do not quote Democrazy Now. We all understand that Afro Americans are badly treated, as are Native Americans, Hispanics etc no need to stretch things to make a point.

arock (Dublin) - Posts: 4434 - 20/06/2020 01:14:21    2281339

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Replying To WanPintWin:  "As was the Soviet Union whose regime had a terrible human rights record. Their flag was still the national flag of an official country.
The confederate flag is not recognised internationally at all and doesn't represent any sovereign state. In today's context, it's a representation of an ideology that no right-minded person would agree with.
There's a reason people don't fly the flag of 1930s Germany."
My point being - UN recognition doesn't equal morally correct.

cavanman47 (Cavan) - Posts: 4137 - 20/06/2020 09:26:08    2281342

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Replying To cavanman47:  "My point being - UN recognition doesn't equal morally correct."
That isn't the argument though. Flags of current recognised nations can legitimately be flown, as they represent an existing country.
The confederate flag only represents an ideology now, not any nation state or even a region. Part of that ideology is abhorrent in today's world. Therefore, I think it's absolutely fair to ask for it not be flown.

WanPintWin (Galway) - Posts: 876 - 20/06/2020 14:56:42    2281366

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Replying To cavanman47:  "My point being - UN recognition doesn't equal morally correct."
Indeed. The UN is a political organization made up of its member states and as such represents the international system, which is hugely unequal and flawed, and which tends to favour politicking and side deals rather than morally-led decision making.

The vast majority of countries in this world are not liberal democracies, and this gives rise to some uncomfortable compromises (some might also say hypocrisy). The spectre of the likes of China and Saudi Arabia on the Human Rights Council, for instance. While their presence there is down to the regional allocation, and there is an argument to say that only picking the "virtuous" countries will lead to the 4 Scandinavian countries talking among themselves, it is undeniably hypocritical for such states to be be put in a position to judge the human rights regimes of others.

Gleebo (Mayo) - Posts: 1803 - 20/06/2020 14:57:19    2281367

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Replying To arock:  "6 lynchings? Allegedly! Please use that word! Every single one is listed as a suicide, but yeah I understand no smoke without fire etc etc etc and please please do not quote Democrazy Now. We all understand that Afro Americans are badly treated, as are Native Americans, Hispanics etc no need to stretch things to make a point."
I think it's over 9 now and there's nfw that people have just suddenly taken to suicide by hanging themselves on a tree.

Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 3114 - 20/06/2020 14:59:35    2281368

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Were these atrocities not happening all along ?
How come people are so offended and outspoken all of a sudden ? Is this the trendy thing to do now ? What were you doing 3 months ago ? Probably busier I suspect.

catch22 (USA) - Posts: 1648 - 20/06/2020 16:52:30    2281375

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Replying To WanPintWin:  "That isn't the argument though. Flags of current recognised nations can legitimately be flown, as they represent an existing country.
The confederate flag only represents an ideology now, not any nation state or even a region. Part of that ideology is abhorrent in today's world. Therefore, I think it's absolutely fair to ask for it not be flown."
What is legitimate or illegitimate about them, other than recognition being afforded to them as a sovereign state?

Strictly speaking, none of the four constituent countries of the UK are sovereign states, but few would advocate for banning England, Wales or Scotland flags (the Northern Ireland Flag being a more contentious matter).

I get that people object to the confederate flag on the basis of its slavery connotations but if we're being consistent, a few other modern day ones might have to go as well. The Japanese one, for instance, could be associated with modern war crimes and slavery, as could that of the US.

Maybe the answer is that no flags other than county ones get flown or brought in?

Gleebo (Mayo) - Posts: 1803 - 20/06/2020 17:04:10    2281376

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Replying To catch22:  "Were these atrocities not happening all along ?
How come people are so offended and outspoken all of a sudden ? Is this the trendy thing to do now ? What were you doing 3 months ago ? Probably busier I suspect."
People haven't become offended all of a sudden its just until these protests most people wernt listening. Stuff like the Rhodes statue has been rumbling on for quite a while now

Breezy (Limerick) - Posts: 1106 - 20/06/2020 17:19:33    2281377

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Replying To Gleebo:  "Indeed. The UN is a political organization made up of its member states and as such represents the international system, which is hugely unequal and flawed, and which tends to favour politicking and side deals rather than morally-led decision making.

The vast majority of countries in this world are not liberal democracies, and this gives rise to some uncomfortable compromises (some might also say hypocrisy). The spectre of the likes of China and Saudi Arabia on the Human Rights Council, for instance. While their presence there is down to the regional allocation, and there is an argument to say that only picking the "virtuous" countries will lead to the 4 Scandinavian countries talking among themselves, it is undeniably hypocritical for such states to be be put in a position to judge the human rights regimes of others."
Come to think of it I have a UN flag at home which should come in handy when Na Piarsaigh Limerick are back in action

Breezy (Limerick) - Posts: 1106 - 20/06/2020 17:22:02    2281378

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Replying To cavanman47:  "It was also adorned by many US troops from the southern states when they fought in the 2 world wars against fascist regimes.

I guess they wore it as a means by which to identify with their homeland, as opposed to a symbol of the supreme race ideals which they were fighting against."
The US military has long associations with confederate military symbols going back to the time when former confederates were accepted back in to the US army years after the civil war ended (Lee's son and nephew fought for the south in the Civil war and later, after the civil war with the US military). Back then letting them keep these symbols was seen as a way of uniting Americans.

bdbuddah (Meath) - Posts: 768 - 20/06/2020 21:35:22    2281402

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Mayo? Mauritatania flag is green with a yellow star and crescent.

dickie10 (UK) - Posts: 532 - 20/06/2020 23:32:03    2281414

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