National Forum

Should The Rebel Flag Be Banned At Cork Matches?

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Replying To bdbuddah:  "When you read up about it and realise the issue which resulted in the civil war was not the right of southerners to own slaves but whether they could bring these slaves to the western frontier (where they were competing in business with northerners) you realise the war was not as straight forward as you first thought. It's funny people here now will lecture you telling you we should put aside political considerations when commentating Irishmen who faught in the British army in the first (& second) world war but can't understand how this army flag associated with absolutely huge numbers of deaths for some in America can mean a lot to some people who are normal people."
So what do you think about this?

https://www.historyextra.com/period/victorian/why-america-haunted-past-us-history-civil-war-misconceptions-revolution/

zinny (Wexford) - Posts: 982 - 16/06/2020 16:55:51    2281052

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Replying To KingdomBoy1:  "It would be a lot better if people were left live their lives the way they want and everyone minded their own business.

Live and let live."
Exactly.

The Cork County Board should be let get on with their own business rather than people getting offended by how they wish to portray their organisation.

MesAmis (Dublin) - Posts: 13145 - 16/06/2020 17:10:52    2281054

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Replying To MesAmis:  "Exactly.

The Cork County Board should be let get on with their own business rather than people getting offended by how they wish to portray their organisation."
Ya and people should also allow others to believe what they want and don't be trying to make everyone think like they do.

KingdomBoy1 (Kerry) - Posts: 11739 - 16/06/2020 17:35:05    2281055

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Replying To KingdomBoy1:  "It would be a lot better if people were left live their lives the way they want and everyone minded their own business.

Live and let live."
If you didn't read the article by Prof Murphy - I will quote you the last two paragraphs

The Cork County Board came out during the week to condemn the use of the Confederate Flag. It was right to do so. Those who condone the flying of the flag as having no significance miss the larger point

Racism is an insidious evil in modern societies. It raised its head in Charlottesville last Saturday. Anything that gives racism succor needs to be eliminated and that is why there is no place for flying the confederate flag at Cork games or anywhere else.

zinny (Wexford) - Posts: 982 - 16/06/2020 17:45:51    2281056

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Replying To KingdomBoy1:  "Ya and people should also allow others to believe what they want and don't be trying to make everyone think like they do."
Of course you can think what you like but people are allowed to question what you think. That's all part of being an adult in the western world.

You can of course question the Cork County Board's decision and in turn people can query the reasons behind your questioning of it.

We shouldn't shy away from difficult topics or from defending our opinions or from questioning other's opinions.

MesAmis (Dublin) - Posts: 13145 - 16/06/2020 18:58:03    2281062

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Maybe there's a happy medium as in let Cork fans bring the flag to the matches but put a sign up outside the Park/Stadium explaining the use of the Flag in a CORK CONTEXT and maybe an explanation on the tickets for the event. Or just have a referendum on it where only those with a Cork address can vote on this topic.

Trump2020 (Galway) - Posts: 1083 - 16/06/2020 21:11:22    2281077

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Replying To zinny:  "So what do you think about this?

https://www.historyextra.com/period/victorian/why-america-haunted-past-us-history-civil-war-misconceptions-revolution/"
This is a good article. The slavery practiced in that part of the world was terrible.
The war itself was not caused by the north deciding slavery had to be abolished more so about protecting northern business business interests in the frontier states. (https://www.pbs.org/opb/historydetectives/feature/causes-of-the-civil-war/#:~:text=A%20common%20explanation%20is%20that,was%20central%20to%20the%20conflict.)
I don't see any contradiction in saying slavery and discrimination in the American south was terrible but understanding why many southerner Americans are proud of what they see as the fight their ancestors put up in that war (South had a much smaller population, had little industry and was much poorer and backward yet managed to put up a fight for 4 years). As that article says 1 in 5 of men of military age in the south was killed. It's not surprising the flag is also associated with this.

bdbuddah (Meath) - Posts: 768 - 16/06/2020 21:31:20    2281080

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Replying To MesAmis:  "Of course you can think what you like but people are allowed to question what you think. That's all part of being an adult in the western world.

You can of course question the Cork County Board's decision and in turn people can query the reasons behind your questioning of it.

We shouldn't shy away from difficult topics or from defending our opinions or from questioning other's opinions."
"Of course you can think what you like but people are allowed to question what you think. That's all part of being an adult in the western world."

What about the people in the rest of the world that's not "western"? Are they inferior to you, unable to think and question?

Cockney_Cat (UK) - Posts: 1116 - 16/06/2020 21:35:23    2281081

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Replying To Trump2020:  "Maybe there's a happy medium as in let Cork fans bring the flag to the matches but put a sign up outside the Park/Stadium explaining the use of the Flag in a CORK CONTEXT and maybe an explanation on the tickets for the event. Or just have a referendum on it where only those with a Cork address can vote on this topic."
Fair point a compromise can be found, mine would be that it comes from within the GAA itself and no outside influences especially from biased left (or right even) leaning media outlets trying to stir up emotions or idiots who love to find the new fashionable thing to be offended by and protest against having any influence or involvement. It can be put to the club's themselves in Cork should the flag be banned or not and voted at their county AGM, before this players like the O'hAalpín's could be consulted on the subject, what were their opinions on seeing their supporters wave the confederate flag. Players from outside Cork like Jason Sherlock, Boidu Sayeh and Zak Mordi could be consulted also and their feelings on the matter and relayed to the club's in Cork at their AGM's and they can make up their own minds then and I think most GAA people would respect whatever the outcome.

If the subject of certain club's named after historical figures and the like being renamed comes up, that discussion comes only from within each individual club themselves and their members and no Croke Park official's or anyone else has no influence or involvement in their dicisions.

DUALSUPPORT (Limerick) - Posts: 718 - 16/06/2020 22:13:48    2281083

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Replying To Cockney_Cat:  ""Of course you can think what you like but people are allowed to question what you think. That's all part of being an adult in the western world."

What about the people in the rest of the world that's not "western"? Are they inferior to you, unable to think and question?"
Thanks for the correction Cockney bud!

See, it's great to have your opinions challenged and then you can learn.

Perfect example of how we all need to have are assertions challenged from time to time.

Great work.

MesAmis (Dublin) - Posts: 13145 - 16/06/2020 22:16:33    2281085

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Replying To bdbuddah:  "This is a good article. The slavery practiced in that part of the world was terrible.
The war itself was not caused by the north deciding slavery had to be abolished more so about protecting northern business business interests in the frontier states. (https://www.pbs.org/opb/historydetectives/feature/causes-of-the-civil-war/#:~:text=A%20common%20explanation%20is%20that,was%20central%20to%20the%20conflict.)
I don't see any contradiction in saying slavery and discrimination in the American south was terrible but understanding why many southerner Americans are proud of what they see as the fight their ancestors put up in that war (South had a much smaller population, had little industry and was much poorer and backward yet managed to put up a fight for 4 years). As that article says 1 in 5 of men of military age in the south was killed. It's not surprising the flag is also associated with this."
There is no difference in what they are saying what the war was about - slavery. The states in the south wanted to keep the practice and as your other article pointed out expand it westward. However what the article written by the Prof at UCL goes onto say is that the history of the reason for the war was rewritten to make it seem as if this was not the real reason for the war as how could anyone in the future stand over such an immoral cause for the war. That is exactly what has allowed people in the southern states to claim an attachment to what they believed was something more important. What has happened since the civil rights movements in the 50s is a correction of this, where now the real cause of this war has been amplified - slavery. As such the attachment to the southern cross has taken on a much sharper focus. So trying to somehow make out that excusing the use of the flag for anything other than the commemoration of a war that was about slavery is denying the facts. What is ironic is that with the removal of the veil of legitimacy for the war the flag has been embraced by the worst in society - absolute racists, as there rallying flag. When people fly this flag this regardless of what other intention they give legitimacy to these people - that and only that is what this is about.
How are you supposed to educate the younger generation about the evils of racism and what it represents if they see a flag that represents the very heart of the evils of racism being proudly flown at a GAA game?

zinny (Wexford) - Posts: 982 - 16/06/2020 23:46:48    2281087

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Replying To Trump2020:  "Maybe there's a happy medium as in let Cork fans bring the flag to the matches but put a sign up outside the Park/Stadium explaining the use of the Flag in a CORK CONTEXT and maybe an explanation on the tickets for the event. Or just have a referendum on it where only those with a Cork address can vote on this topic."
Good idea, or maybe the flag could come with a built in warning in the corner that says,

Warning this flag may cause offence to some people.

Would this appease every1?

KingdomBoy1 (Kerry) - Posts: 11739 - 17/06/2020 03:10:25    2281091

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Replying To MesAmis:  "
Replying To Cockney_Cat:  ""Of course you can think what you like but people are allowed to question what you think. That's all part of being an adult in the western world."

What about the people in the rest of the world that's not "western"? Are they inferior to you, unable to think and question?"
Thanks for the correction Cockney bud!

See, it's great to have your opinions challenged and then you can learn.

Perfect example of how we all need to have are assertions challenged from time to time.

Great work."
You must do a lot of your learning on here so mes :-)

KingdomBoy1 (Kerry) - Posts: 11739 - 17/06/2020 09:57:48    2281097

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Replying To KingdomBoy1:  "
Replying To MesAmis:  "[quote=Cockney_Cat:  ""Of course you can think what you like but people are allowed to question what you think. That's all part of being an adult in the western world."

What about the people in the rest of the world that's not "western"? Are they inferior to you, unable to think and question?"
Thanks for the correction Cockney bud!

See, it's great to have your opinions challenged and then you can learn.

Perfect example of how we all need to have are assertions challenged from time to time.

Great work."
You must do a lot of your learning on here so mes :-)"]Aithníonn ciaróg ciaróg eile a bhuachaill.

MesAmis (Dublin) - Posts: 13145 - 17/06/2020 10:58:08    2281105

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Replying To DUALSUPPORT:  "Fair point a compromise can be found, mine would be that it comes from within the GAA itself and no outside influences especially from biased left (or right even) leaning media outlets trying to stir up emotions or idiots who love to find the new fashionable thing to be offended by and protest against having any influence or involvement. It can be put to the club's themselves in Cork should the flag be banned or not and voted at their county AGM, before this players like the O'hAalpín's could be consulted on the subject, what were their opinions on seeing their supporters wave the confederate flag. Players from outside Cork like Jason Sherlock, Boidu Sayeh and Zak Mordi could be consulted also and their feelings on the matter and relayed to the club's in Cork at their AGM's and they can make up their own minds then and I think most GAA people would respect whatever the outcome.

If the subject of certain club's named after historical figures and the like being renamed comes up, that discussion comes only from within each individual club themselves and their members and no Croke Park official's or anyone else has no influence or involvement in their dicisions."
Nah

If Croke Park were to find something egregious enough they have a duty to step in.

It should be used sparingly but if someone tried to set up an Adolf Hitler Gaels they should not be allowed to. It's an extreme example but it's to illustrate the point that there shouldn't be a completely hands off approach.

The GAA sanction clubs for other reasons, I don't see why the can't step in if they see fit.

Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 3114 - 17/06/2020 11:33:39    2281106

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Replying To zinny:  "There is no difference in what they are saying what the war was about - slavery. The states in the south wanted to keep the practice and as your other article pointed out expand it westward. However what the article written by the Prof at UCL goes onto say is that the history of the reason for the war was rewritten to make it seem as if this was not the real reason for the war as how could anyone in the future stand over such an immoral cause for the war. That is exactly what has allowed people in the southern states to claim an attachment to what they believed was something more important. What has happened since the civil rights movements in the 50s is a correction of this, where now the real cause of this war has been amplified - slavery. As such the attachment to the southern cross has taken on a much sharper focus. So trying to somehow make out that excusing the use of the flag for anything other than the commemoration of a war that was about slavery is denying the facts. What is ironic is that with the removal of the veil of legitimacy for the war the flag has been embraced by the worst in society - absolute racists, as there rallying flag. When people fly this flag this regardless of what other intention they give legitimacy to these people - that and only that is what this is about.
How are you supposed to educate the younger generation about the evils of racism and what it represents if they see a flag that represents the very heart of the evils of racism being proudly flown at a GAA game?"
Listen it was great the north won the war.
Yes, slavery was the issue that caused the war but not exactly the way most believe. The US government were not banning slavery in America, they were leaving it be to be practiced in the south but not in the new areas in America where people were moving to and then it seemed to be more about the fact that it was against the business interests of Northern business men in the area.
The changes that came after the war were great but the extent of them were not planned to happen before the war.
Flags/ wars are always complicated issues for people, especially wars where where huge numbers died.
People have been told for the last few years that the flag and other things like it can't be touched but it has divided people in America more and made them defensive. They seem to be getting more extreme.
Let them remember, if they want to, that their ancestors put up a tough fight in the war, this does not change the fact that slavery was wrong and discrimination is wrong.

bdbuddah (Meath) - Posts: 768 - 17/06/2020 11:50:48    2281108

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Replying To Whammo86:  "Nah

If Croke Park were to find something egregious enough they have a duty to step in.

It should be used sparingly but if someone tried to set up an Adolf Hitler Gaels they should not be allowed to. It's an extreme example but it's to illustrate the point that there shouldn't be a completely hands off approach.

The GAA sanction clubs for other reasons, I don't see why the can't step in if they see fit."
There was a fella on here who had Hitler at corner back only last week.

Turned out to be a typo, to be fair.

lionofludesch (Down) - Posts: 369 - 17/06/2020 12:24:56    2281110

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Replying To MesAmis:  "
Replying To KingdomBoy1:  "[quote=MesAmis:  "[quote=Cockney_Cat:  ""Of course you can think what you like but people are allowed to question what you think. That's all part of being an adult in the western world."

What about the people in the rest of the world that's not "western"? Are they inferior to you, unable to think and question?"
Thanks for the correction Cockney bud!

See, it's great to have your opinions challenged and then you can learn.

Perfect example of how we all need to have are assertions challenged from time to time.

Great work."
You must do a lot of your learning on here so mes :-)"]Aithníonn ciaróg ciaróg eile a bhuachaill."]:-)

KingdomBoy1 (Kerry) - Posts: 11739 - 17/06/2020 12:49:06    2281113

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Fly the flag, it's only a bit of craic, people are too sensitive these days, snowflakes everywhere looking for a reason to complain.

Tirchonaill1 (Donegal) - Posts: 1076 - 17/06/2020 14:27:46    2281120

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Replying To Tirchonaill1:  "Fly the flag, it's only a bit of craic, people are too sensitive these days, snowflakes everywhere looking for a reason to complain."
That's so incredibly childish.
So people are "snowflakes" because they disagree with flying flags that are so tied to racist practices.
It's not a bit of craic
Would you say the same if people were flying nazi flags...

KillingFields (Limerick) - Posts: 1636 - 17/06/2020 14:36:53    2281121

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