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Just watched the re run of the 1978 all Ireland final. This and other games around this time are held up as the golden era of garlic football. Well if this was a golden era, Gaelic football is in a worse state than we thought.
Kerry operating with a double sweeper in Spillane and Jack o Shea. When Dublin forwards got anywhere near the goal in the last ten mins they were just hauled to the ground.
Dublin players such as hickey and Mullins just running around tripping players on the ball.
The quality of football was awful...I mean it was just awful...puke football I'd say as the sweeper on the day coined the phrase many years later.
mayotyroneman (Tyrone) - Posts: 1821 - 03/06/2020 20:27:20
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What has struck me watching old gaa matches recently is how often back then Defenders just hoofed the ball away anywhere.There was rarely an attempt to find a team mate when clearing the ball out of defence.For all that, I still think the Dublin and Kerry teams of the 1970s were fine football teams that would have been successful in any era.All sports have evolved hugely since the 70s.Borg from the 70s with his wooden racket wouldn't do too well against Djokovich.
endgame (Roscommon) - Posts: 2155 - 03/06/2020 21:14:44
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Replying To endgame: "What has struck me watching old gaa matches recently is how often back then Defenders just hoofed the ball away anywhere.There was rarely an attempt to find a team mate when clearing the ball out of defence.For all that, I still think the Dublin and Kerry teams of the 1970s were fine football teams that would have been successful in any era.All sports have evolved hugely since the 70s.Borg from the 70s with his wooden racket wouldn't do too well against Djokovich." I noticed that to reflecting back on games, it's an interesting one, loose play = excitement, contesting ball, quick change of pocession, where now a days keeping pocession is purposeful and critical, but at its most extreme it becomes strategic and a game of attraction.
As skilled players as there is now, different context of football in a different era that required different application of skills.
I sometimes day dream of a Brian Fenton, Brian Mullins midfield.
TheUsername (Dublin) - Posts: 4445 - 03/06/2020 21:37:58
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Discussed briefly in another thread recently. Players nowadays are stronger, fitter, faster and train in a much more structured way from a much younger age. They are better at everything because every aspect of their preparation and development is better. Added to that the ball is lighter now and easier to play with. Tactics have also come in to play much more as we all know and the game is more advanced in just about every way possible.
I don't think that makes the teams of the 70's or any other team less great. I find it a strange point of view that keeps coming up here but you rarely hear fans of other sports making those claims. Every sport evolves.
There is a popular documentary on Netflix at the moment about the Chicago Bulls and Michael Jordan, widely believed to be the best NBA team ever, nobody would ever question their greatness, they would be no match for modern teams however. Better example is the 86 Bears, believed to be the most dominant NFL team ever, their game plan was quite rudimentary by today's standards and if they played even a bad NFL team today I am certain that they would be absolutely crushed, yet nobody questions their legacy. Same with the Pele led Brazil that won multiple world cups.
Teams need to be judged in their own era, it's simply not realistic to compare players from over forty years ago to today's in any sport.
GeniusGerry (Kerry) - Posts: 2105 - 03/06/2020 22:37:23
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Have to say I largely agree with mayotyroneman. It is a myth created by the players of that era and the sporting media who profited and expanded massively from that era onwards. It suited the narrative of the celtic tiger to look back on the football of the 70s-90s as a golden era of sorts. The game then was a wild, erratic, often dirty affair and in my own personal opinion it was a far better spectacle, although the superior fitness, athleticism, strength, and tactical play stands out by miles nowadays and the players have evolved in every way.
In relation to the puke football remark, with respect I dont agree with you on that. Those days defence was a complete scramble, get the ball and hoof it anywhere. Man on man, play the space but if need be, play the man also. It was a contest every time. Kick always trumped hand pass. The rule book wasnt half as thick.
I stand-by Spillane in his remark about Tyrone football and the implementation of what he called puke football back in the early 00s. It has been the ruination of the game as a spectacle and led to constant revision of rules to try and subtely stamp it out of the game, and only in the past few years has that goal looked to have started to succeed. Not a cheap remark at all, and I respect your post and the debate youre looking to start, but thats what I think.
Young_gael (Meath) - Posts: 587 - 04/06/2020 07:20:34
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Its not fair to judge games in isolation from the past. At the time there was a huge rivalry which included Dublin and so had lots of hype around it. But I also remember this game as being a flop in comparison to the previous meetings and is now best remembered for the Paddy Cullen incident which was a turning point early in the game. The bomber came of age that day.
ZUL10 (Clare) - Posts: 693 - 04/06/2020 09:27:08
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Replying To Young_gael: "Have to say I largely agree with mayotyroneman. It is a myth created by the players of that era and the sporting media who profited and expanded massively from that era onwards. It suited the narrative of the celtic tiger to look back on the football of the 70s-90s as a golden era of sorts. The game then was a wild, erratic, often dirty affair and in my own personal opinion it was a far better spectacle, although the superior fitness, athleticism, strength, and tactical play stands out by miles nowadays and the players have evolved in every way.
In relation to the puke football remark, with respect I dont agree with you on that. Those days defence was a complete scramble, get the ball and hoof it anywhere. Man on man, play the space but if need be, play the man also. It was a contest every time. Kick always trumped hand pass. The rule book wasnt half as thick.
I stand-by Spillane in his remark about Tyrone football and the implementation of what he called puke football back in the early 00s. It has been the ruination of the game as a spectacle and led to constant revision of rules to try and subtely stamp it out of the game, and only in the past few years has that goal looked to have started to succeed. Not a cheap remark at all, and I respect your post and the debate youre looking to start, but thats what I think." I disagree with you about Spillane. His comments were mean-spirited after his county had been well and truly beaten and he seemed to have forgotten that Tyrone played brilliant football in the first half of that game - a fact later acknowledged by Jack O'Connor. Tyrone had never won an All-Ireland and had been accused of being naive in previous encounters against so-called superior counties. They could have continued to play expansive football in the second half and still won well but I suspect that deep down there may have been a sense of insecurity so they adopted safety first tactics to protect their lead. One of the clips from that game that RTE play over and over covers a few minutes where Kerry players are continuously surrounded by several Tyrone players who eventually win the ball. Each of those Kerry players had the opportunity to kick the ball forward but appeared to be trying to find the perfect pass, and Tyrone refused them the time and space to do that. It was very disciplined defending even if it may not have been pleasant to look at, but in a way Kerry contributed to that by persisting to try to hold possession. It forced other counties to adapt their game but Tyrone still managed to win two more All-Irelands after 2003 without getting the credit they deserved. Some of the stuff we've seen in recent years from all the top teams is much more cynical than what happened in 2003 but of course it's very easy to lay all the blame on Tyrone (and sometimes Donegal) for this trend.
midlands (Westmeath) - Posts: 541 - 04/06/2020 11:08:47
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Replying To midlands: "I disagree with you about Spillane. His comments were mean-spirited after his county had been well and truly beaten and he seemed to have forgotten that Tyrone played brilliant football in the first half of that game - a fact later acknowledged by Jack O'Connor. Tyrone had never won an All-Ireland and had been accused of being naive in previous encounters against so-called superior counties. They could have continued to play expansive football in the second half and still won well but I suspect that deep down there may have been a sense of insecurity so they adopted safety first tactics to protect their lead. One of the clips from that game that RTE play over and over covers a few minutes where Kerry players are continuously surrounded by several Tyrone players who eventually win the ball. Each of those Kerry players had the opportunity to kick the ball forward but appeared to be trying to find the perfect pass, and Tyrone refused them the time and space to do that. It was very disciplined defending even if it may not have been pleasant to look at, but in a way Kerry contributed to that by persisting to try to hold possession. It forced other counties to adapt their game but Tyrone still managed to win two more All-Irelands after 2003 without getting the credit they deserved. Some of the stuff we've seen in recent years from all the top teams is much more cynical than what happened in 2003 but of course it's very easy to lay all the blame on Tyrone (and sometimes Donegal) for this trend." Agreed, and the point that's missed - and was missed by Spillane at the time - is that the aggressive chasing down and dispossessing of the Kerry players that day actually happened in Kerry's half of the pitch. It wasn't puke football at all, it was simply a case of not giving skillful players all the time they wanted on the ball.
You're right too about Donegal. They do get a lot of stick, because the biggest change the game has seen in the last 50 years (or possibly ever) was the blanket defence which was implemented in its most extreme form (up until that point) by them in the 2011 all ireland semi final.
But when most managers around the country were following suit as a means to make themselves competitive, Donegal had already evolved from that in 2012. Other counties didn't have the same personnel to allow themselves to do the same and so the sweeper/blanket approach stayed in place throughout the decade (apart for when the top 3 or 4 sides met each other).
cavanman47 (Cavan) - Posts: 5010 - 04/06/2020 11:33:08
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Replying To Young_gael: "Have to say I largely agree with mayotyroneman. It is a myth created by the players of that era and the sporting media who profited and expanded massively from that era onwards. It suited the narrative of the celtic tiger to look back on the football of the 70s-90s as a golden era of sorts. The game then was a wild, erratic, often dirty affair and in my own personal opinion it was a far better spectacle, although the superior fitness, athleticism, strength, and tactical play stands out by miles nowadays and the players have evolved in every way.
In relation to the puke football remark, with respect I dont agree with you on that. Those days defence was a complete scramble, get the ball and hoof it anywhere. Man on man, play the space but if need be, play the man also. It was a contest every time. Kick always trumped hand pass. The rule book wasnt half as thick.
I stand-by Spillane in his remark about Tyrone football and the implementation of what he called puke football back in the early 00s. It has been the ruination of the game as a spectacle and led to constant revision of rules to try and subtely stamp it out of the game, and only in the past few years has that goal looked to have started to succeed. Not a cheap remark at all, and I respect your post and the debate youre looking to start, but thats what I think." "kick always trumped handpass" was it not due to Kerry and the 1980 AI that the handpass goal was banned. The book "The History of Gaelic Football" by Corrigan described the 1980 AI semi final as a celebration of the hand pass
Breezy (Limerick) - Posts: 1236 - 04/06/2020 11:41:56
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Replying To midlands: "I disagree with you about Spillane. His comments were mean-spirited after his county had been well and truly beaten and he seemed to have forgotten that Tyrone played brilliant football in the first half of that game - a fact later acknowledged by Jack O'Connor. Tyrone had never won an All-Ireland and had been accused of being naive in previous encounters against so-called superior counties. They could have continued to play expansive football in the second half and still won well but I suspect that deep down there may have been a sense of insecurity so they adopted safety first tactics to protect their lead. One of the clips from that game that RTE play over and over covers a few minutes where Kerry players are continuously surrounded by several Tyrone players who eventually win the ball. Each of those Kerry players had the opportunity to kick the ball forward but appeared to be trying to find the perfect pass, and Tyrone refused them the time and space to do that. It was very disciplined defending even if it may not have been pleasant to look at, but in a way Kerry contributed to that by persisting to try to hold possession. It forced other counties to adapt their game but Tyrone still managed to win two more All-Irelands after 2003 without getting the credit they deserved. Some of the stuff we've seen in recent years from all the top teams is much more cynical than what happened in 2003 but of course it's very easy to lay all the blame on Tyrone (and sometimes Donegal) for this trend." It's a good post.
I do think some of the current criticisms of football is getting out of date though.
The 2018 Championship started to be a lot more open.
The 2017 All Ireland semi final between Tyrone and Dublin killed the extreme blanket as a tactic that could win the All Ireland. Dublin has shown up the flaws of it being a reactive style of play and that if it's not played into then it can be rendered ineffective.
The 2018 Championship was terrible but not because teams were playing defensive football, it was because teams were just not really close to Dublin.
2019 was a much better year, the first All Ireland final was about as good a quality game as there's ever been.
Teams know they have to have a solid defence but they also know that they can't just wait to be given the ball.
I really do think the games heading in the right direction from here.
Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 4208 - 04/06/2020 14:59:34
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Replying To Whammo86: "It's a good post.
I do think some of the current criticisms of football is getting out of date though.
The 2018 Championship started to be a lot more open.
The 2017 All Ireland semi final between Tyrone and Dublin killed the extreme blanket as a tactic that could win the All Ireland. Dublin has shown up the flaws of it being a reactive style of play and that if it's not played into then it can be rendered ineffective.
The 2018 Championship was terrible but not because teams were playing defensive football, it was because teams were just not really close to Dublin.
2019 was a much better year, the first All Ireland final was about as good a quality game as there's ever been.
Teams know they have to have a solid defence but they also know that they can't just wait to be given the ball.
I really do think the games heading in the right direction from here." Playing against the blanket defense if you can go a few points up early on you can spend the rest of the game sitting patiently in midfield either waiting for the opposition to give up on the blanket and come out to ya or just pass it round till the clock hits 70. Teams used just push forward relentlessly no matter what but there is actually no onus on the team in front to attack and the Dubs have copped this and are better than the rest at doing it
Breezy (Limerick) - Posts: 1236 - 04/06/2020 15:29:29
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This was a better encounter between them. The 1977 semi final. Of course games from that era pale into comparison with 2020. Technology, better pictures, fitness and lifestyle changes are part of the reason. Maybe players back then had more of a life though.
GreenandRed (Mayo) - Posts: 7336 - 04/06/2020 16:30:34
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Replying To Breezy: "Playing against the blanket defense if you can go a few points up early on you can spend the rest of the game sitting patiently in midfield either waiting for the opposition to give up on the blanket and come out to ya or just pass it round till the clock hits 70. Teams used just push forward relentlessly no matter what but there is actually no onus on the team in front to attack and the Dubs have copped this and are better than the rest at doing it" 100% but teams are trying to respond and know they have to respond.
I intensely dislike the spectacle of that keep ball tactic but it's the catalyst for making the opposition have to play more proactively and it's going to be good for the game in the long run.
I also don't mind watching patient build up games. I prefer them for instance to a team be able to shoot the lights out of another team.
One of the most boring games I've been to in recent years was Roscommon v Tyrone in the 2018 super 8s.
It was very open and Tyrone just pummelled them and there was no intensity on the ball at all.
Games were exciting back in the day before analysis and good decision making. We're not going back to teams being unrefined like that. There's nothing wrong with having an organised defensive system, it doesn't take away from the spectacle. It's needed for tension and intensity.
Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 4208 - 04/06/2020 17:10:19
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I've watched many games from the 70s on TV and attended many in the early 80s where there is no doubt that the standard was poor enough. People were more easily entertained in those days, kick n rush, physical encounters were the order of the day. Fellas could have a smoke in the dressing room at half time and a few pints the night before a game and all was good in the 70s. The 90s and 00s saw a steep increase in fitness levels, physicality was slowly stamped out and skill levels increased. Our attention span these days is short. Entertainment has to be delivered quickly and be exciting. Technology has seen to that. I'm sure that's why interest in some sports like snooker and tennis has declined. It's simply not quick and entertaining enough to capture the attention of TV audiences as it did in the 70s and 80s. Players today are supremely fit and very skilful. If it wasn't for the advent of more defensive tactics the game if football would be lightning quick I believe and we have seen some classics in recent years where the pace was incomparable to any game in the 70s/80s. Like any sport it's difficult to compare eras but certainly in the eyes of those who witnessed those games at that point in time, they were classics.
Joxer (Dublin) - Posts: 4700 - 04/06/2020 18:59:03
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Enough to make a cat laugh; a thread about Kerry and Dublin soon degenerates in lazy (and poorly informed) Tyrone bashing based on a silly and bitter comment from 17 years ago. It was sour grapes nonsense from Pat, and he later retracted it; but the label stuck. We saw some defensive-only horror shows briefly at the start of the next decade, but the football played in the first decade of this century had a good mix of defence and attack.
On the wider point, I watched some old club games from the 1980s recently and was pleasantly surprised by the overall quality on offer tbh. The one thing that did strike me as different from today was how quickly players lashed the ball in - catchkick like the ball was on fire, no pause at all - and often to a man who was being being snuffed out by a marker twice his size. There was an acceptance that a certain % of ball in would be wasted, and that that was OK! The other thing was how often forwards in impossible situations would take on an impossible shot, instead of keeping the head and looking for a man in a better position. I found both aspects frustrating to watch tbh - if you were a manager nowadays, you'd be telling them to keep the head and use the ball intelligently instead of lashing it in and taking on crazy shots. The other thing you'd notice was how so many players would stay on their feet and shrug off a red-card belt. Far from diving, it was a point of pride not to let the other guy know he'd winded you; so teams sometimes didn't get frees they were entitled to as the fouled player made so little of the foul.
Mullins? Not sure. Not at the same level as Jack O'Shea. I think Mullins would be found out in the modern game tbh, the roughhousing suited him well and you can't get away with half of that nowadays (Plunkett Donaghy concussed in 84 and not even a free given); but there were plenty on that Kerry team who were tough and gifted, with a great team spirit. Can you imagine the Kerry team of the 70s and 80s fed, watered, trained and coached to modern standards? I'd say they'd make hay with any of the current teams. Just my opinion.
essmac (Tyrone) - Posts: 1141 - 05/06/2020 21:01:30
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Replying To essmac: "Enough to make a cat laugh; a thread about Kerry and Dublin soon degenerates in lazy (and poorly informed) Tyrone bashing based on a silly and bitter comment from 17 years ago. It was sour grapes nonsense from Pat, and he later retracted it; but the label stuck. We saw some defensive-only horror shows briefly at the start of the next decade, but the football played in the first decade of this century had a good mix of defence and attack.
On the wider point, I watched some old club games from the 1980s recently and was pleasantly surprised by the overall quality on offer tbh. The one thing that did strike me as different from today was how quickly players lashed the ball in - catchkick like the ball was on fire, no pause at all - and often to a man who was being being snuffed out by a marker twice his size. There was an acceptance that a certain % of ball in would be wasted, and that that was OK! The other thing was how often forwards in impossible situations would take on an impossible shot, instead of keeping the head and looking for a man in a better position. I found both aspects frustrating to watch tbh - if you were a manager nowadays, you'd be telling them to keep the head and use the ball intelligently instead of lashing it in and taking on crazy shots. The other thing you'd notice was how so many players would stay on their feet and shrug off a red-card belt. Far from diving, it was a point of pride not to let the other guy know he'd winded you; so teams sometimes didn't get frees they were entitled to as the fouled player made so little of the foul.
Mullins? Not sure. Not at the same level as Jack O'Shea. I think Mullins would be found out in the modern game tbh, the roughhousing suited him well and you can't get away with half of that nowadays (Plunkett Donaghy concussed in 84 and not even a free given); but there were plenty on that Kerry team who were tough and gifted, with a great team spirit. Can you imagine the Kerry team of the 70s and 80s fed, watered, trained and coached to modern standards? I'd say they'd make hay with any of the current teams. Just my opinion." I completely agree. . .of their legendary full forward line, John Egan was probably 3rd best behind Sheehy and Liston, but put him in today's game with all the modern advancements and his raw skill, and he'd be an all time great! A truly gifted player. Just look at his son!
Jacko transcends all eras and is among the best to ever play the game. His omission from the team of the millennium is scandalous IMO.
Spillane is arguably the best man to ever play the game - he matched up to all sportsmen of his era. Couldn't analyse 2 flies crawling up a wall but that shouldn't take away from his playing abilities.
That Kerry team was truly special. Of course, the current Laois, Cavan, Wexford and Limerick teams would wipe the floor with them but that needs to be put aside and a balance needs to be struck in terms of just how good a team was in their own era.
cavanman47 (Cavan) - Posts: 5010 - 05/06/2020 21:52:35
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Replying To Young_gael: "Have to say I largely agree with mayotyroneman. It is a myth created by the players of that era and the sporting media who profited and expanded massively from that era onwards. It suited the narrative of the celtic tiger to look back on the football of the 70s-90s as a golden era of sorts. The game then was a wild, erratic, often dirty affair and in my own personal opinion it was a far better spectacle, although the superior fitness, athleticism, strength, and tactical play stands out by miles nowadays and the players have evolved in every way.
In relation to the puke football remark, with respect I dont agree with you on that. Those days defence was a complete scramble, get the ball and hoof it anywhere. Man on man, play the space but if need be, play the man also. It was a contest every time. Kick always trumped hand pass. The rule book wasnt half as thick.
I stand-by Spillane in his remark about Tyrone football and the implementation of what he called puke football back in the early 00s. It has been the ruination of the game as a spectacle and led to constant revision of rules to try and subtely stamp it out of the game, and only in the past few years has that goal looked to have started to succeed. Not a cheap remark at all, and I respect your post and the debate youre looking to start, but thats what I think." Not sure what you have been watching! and the comments made by Spillane about Tyrone football of the 00s was more a reflection on a man who could not take his beating. Spillane would be better at his analysis if he put his brain in gear before he made such comments. I am no great lover of Tyrone but biased comments does nobody any good. Most of the guys who do analysis on RTE are biased towards their own county and proceed to ignore the nasty incidents by their own. Present day football would be better to watch if 50% of time in most matches were not spent passing the ball backwards.
browncows (Meath) - Posts: 2342 - 05/06/2020 22:04:28
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Replying To essmac: "Enough to make a cat laugh; a thread about Kerry and Dublin soon degenerates in lazy (and poorly informed) Tyrone bashing based on a silly and bitter comment from 17 years ago. It was sour grapes nonsense from Pat, and he later retracted it; but the label stuck. We saw some defensive-only horror shows briefly at the start of the next decade, but the football played in the first decade of this century had a good mix of defence and attack.
On the wider point, I watched some old club games from the 1980s recently and was pleasantly surprised by the overall quality on offer tbh. The one thing that did strike me as different from today was how quickly players lashed the ball in - catchkick like the ball was on fire, no pause at all - and often to a man who was being being snuffed out by a marker twice his size. There was an acceptance that a certain % of ball in would be wasted, and that that was OK! The other thing was how often forwards in impossible situations would take on an impossible shot, instead of keeping the head and looking for a man in a better position. I found both aspects frustrating to watch tbh - if you were a manager nowadays, you'd be telling them to keep the head and use the ball intelligently instead of lashing it in and taking on crazy shots. The other thing you'd notice was how so many players would stay on their feet and shrug off a red-card belt. Far from diving, it was a point of pride not to let the other guy know he'd winded you; so teams sometimes didn't get frees they were entitled to as the fouled player made so little of the foul.
Mullins? Not sure. Not at the same level as Jack O'Shea. I think Mullins would be found out in the modern game tbh, the roughhousing suited him well and you can't get away with half of that nowadays (Plunkett Donaghy concussed in 84 and not even a free given); but there were plenty on that Kerry team who were tough and gifted, with a great team spirit. Can you imagine the Kerry team of the 70s and 80s fed, watered, trained and coached to modern standards? I'd say they'd make hay with any of the current teams. Just my opinion." Mullins was certainly a ruthless physical player but there was a lot more to him than that, only came up against O'Shea twice in championship I think, in '77 when Brian was by far the stand-out mid-fielder and '78 when O'Shea dominated in a facile win. A mark of the man was his comeback after a bad accident to win a 4th celtic cross in '83, when he was central to Dublin winning the semi, replay against Cork, only to get sent off in the final. When the top mid-fielders are discussed Mullins is right up there.
sligo joe (Dublin) - Posts: 674 - 05/06/2020 22:39:07
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ill say something about mullins, he always looked for a player and was quite a good passer of the ball, was rare he didnt score in a big game. but by god was mean
lilypad (Kildare) - Posts: 1363 - 06/06/2020 02:11:27
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Jacko and Mullins were certainly two of the best ever, but two completely differently types of player. Not taking away from Jacko but I think he was blessed to have one of the best and most under-rated players beside him in Seanie Walsh. Walsh could take on the best and regularly "minded the house" at midfield on his own, allowing Jacko to do his stuff all over the field. Mullins may have edged it over Jacko in the 77 semi-final (although he should have been sent off) but I think Kerry had Walsh at full forward that day, which may have cost them. No disrespect to Dublin's other midfielders but I don't think Mullins ever had a player of Walsh's calibre alongside him.
midlands (Westmeath) - Posts: 541 - 06/06/2020 09:23:55
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