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Sean Boylan Vs Jim Gavin - Who Is The Greatest?

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Replying To Greengrass:  "I heard you the first time . Just thought you were sneering at the man when you said he was well "looked" after. Glad to see you appreciate what he achieved with you ."
No sneering just stating a fact, I'd take an AI if Billy Bingham managed us.

lilypad (Kildare) - Posts: 1237 - 05/06/2020 17:14:46    2279945

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Replying To Greengrass:  "Great post Username . Thanks for taking the time out to put together such a detailed reply . I agree with an awful lot of what you wrote. 2017 against Tyrone exemplified what Jim Gavin had learned and how far he had come as a manager . The game plan was simple enough . Play the entire width of the field . Play with patience . Move the ball continuously and do not take it in to contact. Work the ball in to good storable positions and have players looping to take the shot . It was brilliantly executed . I would also acknowledge Jim Gavin's role in Dublin's development of young players at under 21. I agree entirely that Dublin are a much better outfit now than they were in 2012. He has done a magnificent job. The most salient point you make is when you say that Jim Gavin's story in management is not fully written. Only when it is can we definitively compare him with the great managers whose stories are fully written ."
Thanks Greengrass, its good to have an open minded debate on the actual game and not such a tribal polarised rants, but such is social media these days.

Dublin lucked out in a way in the 2017 game with Tyrone, the early goal really enabled Jims game plan and it became obvious the Tyrone game plan was sprung, what surprised me and i think everyone really was the lack of flexibility or plan B at the time and go at Dublin, because Dublin will always cough up chances if you go at them. I often wonder would the game have been different if the early goal hadn't gone in, really there was no pressure on Dublin after it.

What i have noticed about polls and best teams over time frames of eras during these restrictions is the distance time makes to judgement, the further out you get from "your era" the greater you become. I remember some of the mud being thrown at Tyrone during the 00's, puke football and thuggery and the like - but its only after the era has passed are they recognized as the great team they were with magnificent players and rightly so. So distance, nostalgia and what happens next all enable future judgement.

Dublin and Jim are still fresh, in fact they are very much live and still an active threat and likely the team to beat, they are in all the "greatest" polls already and the story hasnt been finished yet. People are fatigued of us and crave variance and competition - understandably. In many ways i think if Dessie fails, then Jims legend just grows, weird as that sounds. Sometimes the greatness is only evidenced by what comes after. Would Paudi O Se be a great manager if Jack O Connor hadn't followed, would Jack O' Connor been a great manager if Paudi hadn't gone before, interesting neither has been mentioned just to illustrate the point i'm making.

TheUsername (Dublin) - Posts: 3388 - 05/06/2020 17:32:37    2279946

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Replying To munsterchamps:  "all those managers mentioned were great managers miko , jim gavin , harte, cody , boylan etc. but one must look at the players each had at their disposal. you're only as good as the players you have."
That for me is where Sean gets the nod, he took over players like cassels, orurke, mcentee, Lyons, harnan, etc etc. All players who had underachieving before him.

royaldunne (Meath) - Posts: 16598 - 06/06/2020 09:29:49    2279988

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Replying To TheUsername:  "To be fair though, Dublin had won one All Ireland in 17 years when Gavin took over it was hardly a track record for the level of success that followed and our longest dry spell in our history, he was taking over from Gilroy who was massive hero and took over probably one of if not the highest pressure jobs in football, its easy to look back in hindsight, but that track record and context before he came compared to the level and frequency of honors and trophies he won over the period is ridiculous.

I've said before, i think Dublin are going to struggle to maintain success without him genuinely, he was genius. But i genuinely believe the level of focus and energy he put in the job, was unsustainable in the long term - he did well to do it as long as he could, i think he ticked every box as manager, developing youth, improving existing players, tactics, playing the game the right way, out foxing other managers, game management, success, innovative, developed a perfectly balanced team, neither to defensive or to attacking. I wont be surprised to see him come back at some point, hes a very young man still, 48/9 i think and this is his first year he hasn't been involved involved in Dublin i think since the early 00's."
He may have ticked boxes! - He indeed was a great manager there is no doubt about that and one of the greatest, Why did he resign his job? and why did he leave it so late when the league was about to start. Was any of his achievements about himself?. When he took over Dublin had exceptional players and he did take them to new heights. Can you explain his stewardship at the end of the AI against Mayo with the incident when 9/10 Mayo players were rugby tackled to the ground- was that spontaneous reaction/planned in advance?. or was it herd immunity reaction? -it was certainly a new twist which our RTE analysts failed to comment on (spec savers come to mind).Some of great managers continue until the lose , or indeed continue until they are released of their position. Would Sean Boylan, or Mickey Harte resign after a win, or would they continue as most great managers would do. Now aforementioned observations / queries/questions are tongue in cheek.

browncows (Meath) - Posts: 2141 - 06/06/2020 11:03:06    2279994

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Replying To browncows:  "He may have ticked boxes! - He indeed was a great manager there is no doubt about that and one of the greatest, Why did he resign his job? and why did he leave it so late when the league was about to start. Was any of his achievements about himself?. When he took over Dublin had exceptional players and he did take them to new heights. Can you explain his stewardship at the end of the AI against Mayo with the incident when 9/10 Mayo players were rugby tackled to the ground- was that spontaneous reaction/planned in advance?. or was it herd immunity reaction? -it was certainly a new twist which our RTE analysts failed to comment on (spec savers come to mind).Some of great managers continue until the lose , or indeed continue until they are released of their position. Would Sean Boylan, or Mickey Harte resign after a win, or would they continue as most great managers would do. Now aforementioned observations / queries/questions are tongue in cheek."
Was any of his achievements about himself?

Dont think so really, he wouldn't even describe himself as a manager, more a facilitator. In a way much of his approach was psychological and cultural, it was about bringing out the best qualities and fitting that into the collective and getting people as good as they could individually, to contribute to a shared collective and goal. He then tapped into the meso and macro systems of the community and county not just as footballers, this Dublin team always represented and contributed to the community, but there was humility and service about it compared to any other Dublin team certainly in my memory, he unified team, community and county as one living breathing powerful force existing to mutually serve each other, its something other counties cant replicate on our scale. The greater good was always Dublin GAA. He knew the threats and land mines in Dublin for the GAA team, media, hype, pride, profile and dealt with them all accordingly. Its what become known as the Dublin way.

Dublin had exceptional players when he took over?

We had good players, who had gotten to the promised land in 2011, 2012 saw us return to form and could easily have gone on from there and players could have relaxed on their 1 All Ireland for the rest of their careers. Gavins management changed that in 2013. The 2013 team was distinctly different and better then 2011 and 2012, we had moved on from scraping results with a bit of luck to blowing teams away with a brand of swashbuckling football. The players from 2011 improved 30% in my opinion under Gavins coaching. Going on from there Gavin built 3 teams in my opinion, 2013 -2014, 2014 - 21016. 2017 -2019. I think his philosophy was that a team had a life cycle of 2-3 years before a refresh was needed. No other manger i dont think has ever been so successful and transitioned his team so much, developed players, been so ruthless and gave youth its fling. The culture from 2011 -2019 - has changed hugely.

Pull downs Vs Mayo?

A little of both i would suspect, the team would be coached to give no quarter, be clever and fight for every % of an aspect of a win. I do think a bit of a collective mind approach came in to it from the players as well. Im not sure its particularly new and im particularly surprised as a Meath man you havnt seen it before. I can remember games from the 80's/90s' Dublin Vs Meath, were both teams were at it, pull downs, blocks, off the ball etc - its a long time in the game. I dont condone it, but we are as a tough as anyone when we need to be and as cynical as you need to be as well to be champions when the game takes that turn, you have to stand up to every type of challenge. To do what we did you have to have every string to your bow. I didnt like it either, but look the atmosphere and GPS throwing thing meant - there was a feeling in the ground, that all bets were off and this was a primal slog out of hunger. Great day though and super atmosphere, still dont know how we won that game.

Continuing on until you loose?

Its a very personal thing isnt it, many, then and now thought Sean had stayed to long, many say Micky is there to long - is it better to burn out or fade away - certainly Meath, Kerry and maybe Tyrone will to regress after loosing such long standing managers,so is that really the right way - im not sure. Im not sure there is a right or wrong. People make personal decisions around their pass times and Jim made his. Ive heard much on his departure and i would say there was more then one reason, career progression that meant he would have to spend more time in Europe then in Ireland, i think is the key reason, he has a young family to heading into important years, he was at the end of the latest two/three year cycle and i think he felt it needed freshening up again over a couple of years. He would have been conscious of others getting an opportunity like Dessie to and he had been involved with Dublin underage - senior for 20 years. Then what was left to achieve? he had done what hadn't been done before and beaten every county in Ireland - there wasnt any one left to beat. Many, many reasons, im sure. Jim always did things his way and he wouldn't be troubled by what others did and why would he? They never achieved what he did. The timing right before the league had to do with personal circumstances and a career opportunity is my understanding, of course only Jim knows himself. I'm not sure he is retired really hes just left the position, i wont be surprised to see him return at some point, hes still doing a bit up in Ballyboden and Towers with the kids. Dublin Gaa is always going to be a massive passion for him and hes a very young man in managerial terms still.

TheUsername (Dublin) - Posts: 3388 - 06/06/2020 16:15:06    2280017

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Billy Morgan is up there with the greatest and has got no where near the recognition he deserves. Four All-Ireland Finals in a row, Cork were robbed by Tommy Sugrue in '88, that should have been a three in a row team. He rebuilt a team for an All-Ireland in 1993 and took Cork from been beaten by Limerick in 2003 under Tompkins back to an All-Ireland Final in 2007. The 2010 All-Ireland winning team was constructed by Morgan and put the foundations firmly in place for that win.
Couple this with managing Nemo to All-Ireland success and UCC in the Sigerson Cup. Morgan is up there and probably better than all of the names mentioned, this managing a county where football is second choice. Image what Cork would have done in the 2000's with the likes of Brian Corcoran, Sean Og, Tom Kenny and Ronan Curran playing.

The_Bull (Cork) - Posts: 241 - 07/06/2020 14:12:45    2280064

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Replying To The_Bull:  "Billy Morgan is up there with the greatest and has got no where near the recognition he deserves. Four All-Ireland Finals in a row, Cork were robbed by Tommy Sugrue in '88, that should have been a three in a row team. He rebuilt a team for an All-Ireland in 1993 and took Cork from been beaten by Limerick in 2003 under Tompkins back to an All-Ireland Final in 2007. The 2010 All-Ireland winning team was constructed by Morgan and put the foundations firmly in place for that win.
Couple this with managing Nemo to All-Ireland success and UCC in the Sigerson Cup. Morgan is up there and probably better than all of the names mentioned, this managing a county where football is second choice. Image what Cork would have done in the 2000's with the likes of Brian Corcoran, Sean Og, Tom Kenny and Ronan Curran playing."
From a Limerick hurling point of view your point is interesting. Where Cork managed to get everybody behind the hurling in the early Century, we could never do it and when playing Cork in 2004 we had six players unavailable- Stephen Lucey, Mike O'Brien, Connor Fitzgerald, Mark Keane, Mark O'Riordan and the last mans identity escapes me. Whatever about pulling a Munster win, and they went very close, we never had a serious chance of winning a football All Ireland and the dual player situation was very badly handled, unlike what was done in Cork.

Oldertourman (Limerick) - Posts: 133 - 09/06/2020 17:48:52    2280202

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Boylan, hands down.

icehonesty (Wexford) - Posts: 2450 - 09/06/2020 21:01:25    2280220

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Replying To Oldertourman:  "From a Limerick hurling point of view your point is interesting. Where Cork managed to get everybody behind the hurling in the early Century, we could never do it and when playing Cork in 2004 we had six players unavailable- Stephen Lucey, Mike O'Brien, Connor Fitzgerald, Mark Keane, Mark O'Riordan and the last mans identity escapes me. Whatever about pulling a Munster win, and they went very close, we never had a serious chance of winning a football All Ireland and the dual player situation was very badly handled, unlike what was done in Cork."
Limerick lost by 1 point to Cork in the 2009 Munster Football Final. Cork got to the All-Ireland Final beating Tyrone. Limerick lost to Kerry by a point in 2010 and took Cork to extra time. Limerick were unquestionably a very good team during that period and could complete with all the top teams.

The_Bull (Cork) - Posts: 241 - 09/06/2020 23:20:53    2280232

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Replying To The_Bull:  "Billy Morgan is up there with the greatest and has got no where near the recognition he deserves. Four All-Ireland Finals in a row, Cork were robbed by Tommy Sugrue in '88, that should have been a three in a row team. He rebuilt a team for an All-Ireland in 1993 and took Cork from been beaten by Limerick in 2003 under Tompkins back to an All-Ireland Final in 2007. The 2010 All-Ireland winning team was constructed by Morgan and put the foundations firmly in place for that win.
Couple this with managing Nemo to All-Ireland success and UCC in the Sigerson Cup. Morgan is up there and probably better than all of the names mentioned, this managing a county where football is second choice. Image what Cork would have done in the 2000's with the likes of Brian Corcoran, Sean Og, Tom Kenny and Ronan Curran playing."
Question to a Cork man. Why historically do Cork underperform so much in football?. Over 500k in Cork. Historically Cork have a huge no. football players (when growing up in the 1980's I heard Cork had more football players than any other counties by a good bit at that time).
Even allowing for the successful tradition of hurling in the county meaning players like JBM often pick hurling over football, the playing numbers down the years mean Cork should be, in terms of All Ireland's won, near the top counties totals.

bdbuddah (Meath) - Posts: 693 - 10/06/2020 15:44:51    2280305

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Billy Morgan ;)

But out of those two you'd have to say Jim Gavin. What Boylan did was remarkable with Meath and Cork's expense most of the time.

But you can't look past the 5 in a row with a team showing no signs of slowing down. After saying this it will be interesting with new management for Dublin will they continue to dominate as they did or without Jim Gavin's genius mind will it start the downhill of this great Dublin team?

pkboher (Cork) - Posts: 33 - 12/06/2020 13:23:13    2280505

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Replying To meathfan1:  "Obviously my username would suggest that I might carry a bit of bias into an argument such as this one, but I have been thinking in detail about this for most of the day so far.

Looking at each manager, they both had incredible achievements. Gavin won 6 All-Irelands in a very short space of time, Boylan won 4 and got to a further 3 finals over a 20+ year term.

An argument could be made that Boylan took over a team in a much worse off state than Gavin did. Dublin were very much contenders and that first All-Ireland took a huge weight off the group in 2011.

At the same time, I think there are more distraction now to bring lads away from GAA than there ever has been, more so in Dublin than anywhere else.

Gavin was able to keep a core group of lads motivated enough to keep standards at a ridiculously high level for the length of his tenure. Although Boylan was able to build different All-Ireland winning teams in two different decades.

I genuinely believe that resources play a huge factor in creating an All-Ireland winning team in this day and age and there's no denying that is something Dublin have over most counties including Meath.

Offering lads university places, good jobs & the best of sports science makes for an attractive environment for Dublin footballers to commit their life to the cause vs what other country teams are able to provide.

Pound for pound I would say that Boylan's achievements were greater because of how his honours were spread over the length of time he was managing (as opposed to a Mickey Harte). Also in terms of how competitive provincials were back then.

It might be like comparing apples and oranges but for me there's only one winner in this argument; Sean Boylan.

Open for debate though...."
The state of Meath football since Boylan stepped down shows the significant impact he made to his county. In terms of other great managers the benefits Kerry have of playing in Munster allowed success to continue era after era. The benefits of the resources Dublin have is likely to allow the Dubs to continue being successful post Gavin.

I'd still just side with Gavin because even with resources to coach a team to 5 in-a-row is unlikely to ever be repeated. However sometimes it's only after the horse has bolted you realise how great someone was and the rapid decline of Meath football over the past 20 years; showing no signs of getting better highlights the impact Boylan made right across Meath GAA; they were a feared county but now there is little fear of Meath football across the country.

sam1884 (UK) - Posts: 574 - 22/06/2020 16:21:51    2281542

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Replying To sam1884:  "The state of Meath football since Boylan stepped down shows the significant impact he made to his county. In terms of other great managers the benefits Kerry have of playing in Munster allowed success to continue era after era. The benefits of the resources Dublin have is likely to allow the Dubs to continue being successful post Gavin.

I'd still just side with Gavin because even with resources to coach a team to 5 in-a-row is unlikely to ever be repeated. However sometimes it's only after the horse has bolted you realise how great someone was and the rapid decline of Meath football over the past 20 years; showing no signs of getting better highlights the impact Boylan made right across Meath GAA; they were a feared county but now there is little fear of Meath football across the country."
"the benefits Kerry have of playing in Munster allowed success to continue era after era."

I don't understand this. Could you elaborate?

Cockney_Cat (UK) - Posts: 970 - 22/06/2020 16:54:18    2281548

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Trevor Giles tribute with Colm O'Rourke appreciation invludingo the sleeveless jersey story! Trevor was one of the great players but also sounds like the most laid back Gaelic footballer ever, completely calm.

GreenandRed (Mayo) - Posts: 5707 - 26/06/2020 18:17:49    2281910

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