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Sean Boylan Vs Jim Gavin - Who Is The Greatest?

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Replying To catch22:  "Yes , have to agree, it's impossible to have any meaningful discussion while these couple of Kerry posters are dragging threads down. Poor standards probably."
Shouldn't you be stalking over on the kerry page and giving red thumbs :-)

KingdomBoy1 (Kerry) - Posts: 11422 - 04/06/2020 20:06:52    2279904

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Replying To KingdomBoy1:  "Shouldn't you be stalking over on the kerry page and giving red thumbs :-)"
Funny you should mention it. ;))

catch22 (USA) - Posts: 1525 - 04/06/2020 21:35:09    2279909

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Replying To KingdomBoy1:  "Shouldn't you be stalking over on the kerry page and giving red thumbs :-)"
Aye, the sad feckers red thumb us on there for saying thanks to another poster. Ah sure doesn't it make you glad your not that far gone.

TheHermit (Kerry) - Posts: 5700 - 04/06/2020 21:57:22    2279911

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Would definitely be interesting to see Jim manage
one of the other counties in Leinster.
See could he reproduce with Laois, what Boylan did with Meath.

greysoil (Monaghan) - Posts: 780 - 04/06/2020 22:02:24    2279912

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Replying To catch22:  "Funny you should mention it. ;))"
Catch22 you've done it, you've finally broken me with that red thumb, I won't sleep a wink tonight :-) :-)

KingdomBoy1 (Kerry) - Posts: 11422 - 04/06/2020 22:06:42    2279913

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Replying To lilypad:  "That's right and he was well 'looked' after"
Would you hand those titles and the All Ireland final appearance back ?

Greengrass (Louth) - Posts: 5126 - 05/06/2020 04:08:31    2279917

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A professional team needs to be judged in a different light in my view. Not fair to compare.

gahfan (Wexford) - Posts: 488 - 05/06/2020 08:42:49    2279918

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Winning AI with the quality of that Kerry squad or the current Dublin squad is an achievement but not exactly surprising. But to be fair the way the current Dublin team perform as on another level and Gavin deserves huge credit.

John O'Mahoney won 2 All Irelands with Galway. His first was a huge achievment as they were in Division 3 and rank outsiders. but his Connacht title with Leitrim was special so he deserves a mention.

Boylan's meath were not exactly world beaters before he took over and he made them a powerhouse for many years. That in itself is a big achievement.

Micko based on what he achieved outside Kerry and also the fact that he won things in different eras probably gets the vote

Mayonman (Galway) - Posts: 1259 - 05/06/2020 08:59:50    2279919

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I think it was off the ball that ran a national poll about a month ago to see who was the greatest ever manager in Ireland, and they had Joe smiht gavin Declan kidney coady and others and it came down to coady and Micko in the end.
Micko won it.

I think Mickey Harte deserves a big mention as well as Joe kernan and Jim McGuinness.

KingdomBoy1 (Kerry) - Posts: 11422 - 05/06/2020 09:33:29    2279920

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To be fair though, Dublin had won one All Ireland in 17 years when Gavin took over it was hardly a track record for the level of success that followed and our longest dry spell in our history, he was taking over from Gilroy who was massive hero and took over probably one of if not the highest pressure jobs in football, its easy to look back in hindsight, but that track record and context before he came compared to the level and frequency of honors and trophies he won over the period is ridiculous.

I've said before, i think Dublin are going to struggle to maintain success without him genuinely, he was genius. But i genuinely believe the level of focus and energy he put in the job, was unsustainable in the long term - he did well to do it as long as he could, i think he ticked every box as manager, developing youth, improving existing players, tactics, playing the game the right way, out foxing other managers, game management, success, innovative, developed a perfectly balanced team, neither to defensive or to attacking. I wont be surprised to see him come back at some point, hes a very young man still, 48/9 i think and this is his first year he hasn't been involved involved in Dublin i think since the early 00's.

TheUsername (Dublin) - Posts: 3480 - 05/06/2020 09:51:47    2279921

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Replying To Mayonman:  "Winning AI with the quality of that Kerry squad or the current Dublin squad is an achievement but not exactly surprising. But to be fair the way the current Dublin team perform as on another level and Gavin deserves huge credit.

John O'Mahoney won 2 All Irelands with Galway. His first was a huge achievment as they were in Division 3 and rank outsiders. but his Connacht title with Leitrim was special so he deserves a mention.

Boylan's meath were not exactly world beaters before he took over and he made them a powerhouse for many years. That in itself is a big achievement.

Micko based on what he achieved outside Kerry and also the fact that he won things in different eras probably gets the vote"
People forget what a great manager O'Mahony was, I think his 2nd spell with Mayo kind of clouds his legacy maybe.

His first spell with Mayo brought yous back into the big time, and 2 All-Ireland titles with Galway who hadn't won since the 60s was very impressive but the Connacht title with Leitrim must be his greatest achievement as you said.

MesAmis (Dublin) - Posts: 13085 - 05/06/2020 10:35:08    2279923

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Replying To TheUsername:  "To be fair though, Dublin had won one All Ireland in 17 years when Gavin took over it was hardly a track record for the level of success that followed and our longest dry spell in our history, he was taking over from Gilroy who was massive hero and took over probably one of if not the highest pressure jobs in football, its easy to look back in hindsight, but that track record and context before he came compared to the level and frequency of honors and trophies he won over the period is ridiculous.

I've said before, i think Dublin are going to struggle to maintain success without him genuinely, he was genius. But i genuinely believe the level of focus and energy he put in the job, was unsustainable in the long term - he did well to do it as long as he could, i think he ticked every box as manager, developing youth, improving existing players, tactics, playing the game the right way, out foxing other managers, game management, success, innovative, developed a perfectly balanced team, neither to defensive or to attacking. I wont be surprised to see him come back at some point, hes a very young man still, 48/9 i think and this is his first year he hasn't been involved involved in Dublin i think since the early 00's."
Username I'm a big fan of Jim Gavin both in terms of what he achieved with this Dublin team and how he achieved it however I can't agree that "he ticked every box as manager." Firstly I don't buy in to this idea of "playing the game the right way." Managers organise their team according to the qualities of the players at their disposal. The most chastening experience Jim Gavin ever endured as manager of Dublin was the semi final defeat to Donegal. It was also his most valuable learning experience . Tactically that day Jim McGuinness shredded him. However McGuinness did very little differently that day to what he had done all through the championship. He brought n Christy Toye earlier than he had In previous games that season and that was about it . Every thing else was the same . Dublin's lack of a plan to deal with Donegal that day was startling. That never happened again. Nor was the wide open, all out attacking game plan ever employed again. Dublin now employ a game plan that involves tracking back and twelve to thirteen men behind the ball if required . They also counter the opposition. tactically. That by the way is all to Gavin's credit. Tactically because of the strength of his squad Gavin is at an advantage over every other manager in the country . There is one huge gap in Gavin's managerial career at senior level. He has never once in 45 championship matches had to plan for a match where his team were inferior to the opposition . All of the great managers have triumphed against the odds . Jim Gavin never has because he has never had to in so much as one match. Cody did it last year against Limerick. Micko has done it again and again and again. Kerry in 1975; Kildare in 1998 and 2000, Laois in 2003 and Wicklow. John O Mahony's record is also brilliant. He took over a Mayo team n 1988 that had not made an All Ireland final since 1951. In 1989 they came within a whisker of winning the final. In 1994 he took a Leitrim team to their first and only Connacht title since 1927 beating Roscommon and Galway away from home and beating Mayo in the final. Jim Gavin has never achieved anything like that. In 1997 John O Mahony took over a Galway side that were languishing in Division Three. The county hadn't won an All Ireland since 1966. Less than twelve months later they were All Ireland champions. All the great managers Have triumphed against the odds. SeanBoylan, Mickey Harte, Joe Kernan, Billy Morgan, John O Mahony and Micko have all triumphed against the odds. That list is by no means exhaustive. I'm not staying that Jim Gavin couldn't do so. I'm saying he hasn't done so. That means he hasn't "ticked every box as manager." It's not his fault but he has managed a team that has been hugely avantaged by The GAA. I can't think of another team in competitive team sport that has been so advantaged the the administrative body of the sport. I don't say that to try to diminish Jim Gavin's achievements as a manager . Rather I say it to further bolster the point that he has never triumphed against the odds . He needs to do that before he can be considered to be amongst the greatest managers of all time.

Greengrass (Louth) - Posts: 5126 - 05/06/2020 11:21:16    2279925

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Replying To gahfan:  "A professional team needs to be judged in a different light in my view. Not fair to compare."
And that's what all this comes down to isn't it.
That's what all the arguments and debates and newspaper pages etc have been about this past decade.
Can Dublin be seriously judged against the rest given what they are in comparison to the rest.
Ye know my answer ;D

TheHermit (Kerry) - Posts: 5700 - 05/06/2020 12:04:45    2279926

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Replying To TheHermit:  "And that's what all this comes down to isn't it.
That's what all the arguments and debates and newspaper pages etc have been about this past decade.
Can Dublin be seriously judged against the rest given what they are in comparison to the rest.
Ye know my answer ;D"
Yes they can .

Greengrass (Louth) - Posts: 5126 - 05/06/2020 13:12:40    2279930

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Replying To Greengrass:  "Username I'm a big fan of Jim Gavin both in terms of what he achieved with this Dublin team and how he achieved it however I can't agree that "he ticked every box as manager." Firstly I don't buy in to this idea of "playing the game the right way." Managers organise their team according to the qualities of the players at their disposal. The most chastening experience Jim Gavin ever endured as manager of Dublin was the semi final defeat to Donegal. It was also his most valuable learning experience . Tactically that day Jim McGuinness shredded him. However McGuinness did very little differently that day to what he had done all through the championship. He brought n Christy Toye earlier than he had In previous games that season and that was about it . Every thing else was the same . Dublin's lack of a plan to deal with Donegal that day was startling. That never happened again. Nor was the wide open, all out attacking game plan ever employed again. Dublin now employ a game plan that involves tracking back and twelve to thirteen men behind the ball if required . They also counter the opposition. tactically. That by the way is all to Gavin's credit. Tactically because of the strength of his squad Gavin is at an advantage over every other manager in the country . There is one huge gap in Gavin's managerial career at senior level. He has never once in 45 championship matches had to plan for a match where his team were inferior to the opposition . All of the great managers have triumphed against the odds . Jim Gavin never has because he has never had to in so much as one match. Cody did it last year against Limerick. Micko has done it again and again and again. Kerry in 1975; Kildare in 1998 and 2000, Laois in 2003 and Wicklow. John O Mahony's record is also brilliant. He took over a Mayo team n 1988 that had not made an All Ireland final since 1951. In 1989 they came within a whisker of winning the final. In 1994 he took a Leitrim team to their first and only Connacht title since 1927 beating Roscommon and Galway away from home and beating Mayo in the final. Jim Gavin has never achieved anything like that. In 1997 John O Mahony took over a Galway side that were languishing in Division Three. The county hadn't won an All Ireland since 1966. Less than twelve months later they were All Ireland champions. All the great managers Have triumphed against the odds. SeanBoylan, Mickey Harte, Joe Kernan, Billy Morgan, John O Mahony and Micko have all triumphed against the odds. That list is by no means exhaustive. I'm not staying that Jim Gavin couldn't do so. I'm saying he hasn't done so. That means he hasn't "ticked every box as manager." It's not his fault but he has managed a team that has been hugely avantaged by The GAA. I can't think of another team in competitive team sport that has been so advantaged the the administrative body of the sport. I don't say that to try to diminish Jim Gavin's achievements as a manager . Rather I say it to further bolster the point that he has never triumphed against the odds . He needs to do that before he can be considered to be amongst the greatest managers of all time."
Good articulate post mate. I didn't say he was perfect, i said he had a wide skills set that ticked most of the essential boxes in comparison to other managers.

You are bang on the money, he dropped the ball on a few occasions tactically, as you say Donegal absolutely beasted us in 2014, aboslute tactical master class by Jim McGuiness, all the more impressive as they came from a fair bit from behind when Dublin were purring, Gavin got a schooling that day.

I'd also pick out the 2017 league final with Kerry, Fitzmaurice employed a phased high press and broke the game up into quarters with different strategies and Dublin had no answers, Fitzmaurcie was an excellent tactitcan i was glad he left Kerry in all honesty.

Stephen Rochford and the defensive shield he put up in 16 & 17 as well we really struggled to break down and in many ways those games particularity 16 saw Gavin change his approach. Gavin made some head scratching decisions in those games - starting with Crazy Horse etc.

They are the games i would pick out around tactics. he was bettered on a few occasions alright, he learned and came back to best those managers to be fair to him. Its a handful of games though and when you consider we hold the record for league unbeaten and championship, its a very small sample over a long -eriod of success. He was bettered on those occasions id openly acknowledge.

The donegal defeat certainly changed things tactically, we were less gung ho, but not drastically so, we sacrificed a man to have Cian O Suullivan sweep really and were a lot more solid and that brought success, from 15-17, of course lads tracked back on the cover but nothing like we see when teams play against us.

The Mayo game changed things somewhat it was the end of the Borgans, Flynns, Cian, O Sullivans, Connolly's leading the charge, the Mayo defensive system became the much sought after way to "cause the Dubs problems". from that point on we havent played a team bar Cork last year who went for us last year and didnt play a huge spoiling or blanket system and try and catch us on the break. In all truth we struggled to break the blanket initially it was a good 12 months in the making and appexed with Tyrone Semi. The question at the time was could Dublin bet the blanket and was considered our vulnerability. Gavin had to reinvent his tactics. He blooded new players, COn, Howard, Scully. He developed a system of hybrid players who could play between the lines with massive engines. The wing forwards could cover for marauding half backs who would go looking for the space as they werent assigned markers, step forward, McCaffery, Small, Murchen etc - all well able to be match winning attackers as we have seen. Howard, Kilkenny, Scully well capable of being half backs as half forwards. While forwards like Mannion, Con can make last ditch goal saving tackles in the back line. He developed a team with skill sets that play across the lines, any line and be effective. It was the only way to beat the blancket, drag people out of position, play a different position, burst from deep with your defenders. When you have your noses in front tack on score after score and mind the house. Suck the life ot of a team. Most Dublin games i go to there will be one defender and Cluxton in their own half with one forward. It became a game of chess for Dublin.

Bu5t what precedent was set? Has any other team beaten the blancket? The Kerry team of the 00's couldn't do it. Donegal won an All Irealnd with it in 12, 14 was a battle of the blankets. The only team to tactically do it were Dublin. Dublin beat the blacket and showed everyone esle how to. innovation.

i dont feel comfortable comparing Jim to other managers, because i really dont feel he has finished his career. But i do think you are a bit guilty of judging his contribution to Dublin, after his success rather then before it. A County that won 1 All Ireland in 17 years, the biggest supported county in Ireland who had been roundly beaten in the Semi the year before, their is an adversity and pressure in managing Dublin others who manage elsewhere dont have. Additionally its important to acknowledge Jim hand in the development of many of Dublins players, he was involved in underage with Dublin form the early 00's - with significant underage success, other managers didnt have. He had players from 11-19 in his underage teams and managed them from 13 -19 at senior. Where there adversities definitely, being beaten by Donegal in 14 i rember some dubs saying he wasnt up to the job, we had dethrone Kerry in 15, to start the cycle. We lost Kilkenny, Jack, Dermo, ROC during that time, he saw retirements, challenges and never has a team been so dominant coming from every corner of the coutry never has manager faced every team and left been standing with a five in a row: Mayo, Doengal, Kerry, Cork, Donegal, Meath , Kildare, Tyrone, Mongahan, galway, Roscommon, name any county really, no one has done but Jim. There is just no one else to beat and he did it often and well. No manager can match that dominance or trophy haul pound for pound within the contemrpory or histroical championship structure.

If im being honest, Gilroy, took Dublin out of the wilderness but we remained an outlier, but Gavin achieved absolute greatness. i think you are judging Jim on what Dublin are now he is gone rather then what they were when he arrived. Not taking anything away from the other managers mentioned. Id be confident though each would struggle to do what Gavin did at Dublin.

TheUsername (Dublin) - Posts: 3480 - 05/06/2020 13:25:47    2279931

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Replying To Greengrass:  "Would you hand those titles and the All Ireland final appearance back ?"
Now why on earth would I want to do that?

lilypad (Kildare) - Posts: 1331 - 05/06/2020 13:41:32    2279932

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Replying To TheHermit:  "And that's what all this comes down to isn't it.
That's what all the arguments and debates and newspaper pages etc have been about this past decade.
Can Dublin be seriously judged against the rest given what they are in comparison to the rest.
Ye know my answer ;D"
Yes, they absolutely can. In the same way Kerry would be judged against other counties who have far less money invested in GAA projects, facilities and their intercounty team.
This 'professional' argument falls flat when we all know that the Dublin players have day jobs, apart from any students. Some of them with very demanding professions too.
Given the age profile, I'd say Kerry would have a higher proportion of their panel not in full-time employment.

WanPintWin (Galway) - Posts: 813 - 05/06/2020 14:35:38    2279935

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Replying To Greengrass:  "Would you hand those titles and the All Ireland final appearance back ?"
now why on earth would i want to do that?

lilypad (Kildare) - Posts: 1331 - 05/06/2020 14:52:52    2279937

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Replying To lilypad:  "now why on earth would i want to do that?"
I heard you the first time . Just thought you were sneering at the man when you said he was well "looked" after. Glad to see you appreciate what he achieved with you .

Greengrass (Louth) - Posts: 5126 - 05/06/2020 16:10:37    2279940

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Great post Username . Thanks for taking the time out to put together such a detailed reply . I agree with an awful lot of what you wrote. 2017 against Tyrone exemplified what Jim Gavin had learned and how far he had come as a manager . The game plan was simple enough . Play the entire width of the field . Play with patience . Move the ball continuously and do not take it in to contact. Work the ball in to good storable positions and have players looping to take the shot . It was brilliantly executed . I would also acknowledge Jim Gavin's role in Dublin's development of young players at under 21. I agree entirely that Dublin are a much better outfit now than they were in 2012. He has done a magnificent job. The most salient point you make is when you say that Jim Gavin's story in management is not fully written. Only when it is can we definitively compare him with the great managers whose stories are fully written .

Greengrass (Louth) - Posts: 5126 - 05/06/2020 16:22:14    2279942

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