National Forum

Could A Professional Hurling/Football League Survive In Ireland?

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Replying To Rolo2010:  "Agree but I can't see the Provincials being separated from the All-Ireland. They should introduce a pool stage in each championship in the meantime. It gives each team a minimum number of games against a mix of opposition. No backdoor or Tier 2. The provincial champions go into the All-Ireland SFs and that's it."
Without getting in to a long debate about formats if you are moving the league to the summer and trying to increase attendances and coverage of that competition then you'd need to simplify the championship rather than add new layers to it. There are only so many weeks in the summer to play games.

GeniusGerry (Kerry) - Posts: 2105 - 16/05/2020 16:06:14    2278391

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Replying To GreenandRed:  "As appallingly run as it was by the FAI how did the League of Ireland manage to pay even part-time players and coaches, never mind full time, on attendances of a bit more than 450K in 2019. They just have Derry City and the 26 counties for clubs. Some money comes in from UEFA and FIFA and a small bit of TV revenue but where does the cash come from? They've a small numbers of dedicated hardcore supporters that follow League of Ireland clubs in small stadiums rather than travel regularly over to the limelight of Premier League clubs. Plenty of players sign on in the off-season in between contracts. A fair few GAA people go to League of Ireland games too. But how have League of Ireland clubs survived?"
I forgot to combine the league of ireland and northern league , thats 450k +220 k following soccer in ireland , attendances of 2million a year does not seem unrealistic to me. . The championship could be play as a knockout compition also... Again the question was could profesionalism survive . The small counties wouud have to combine to survive or follow a regional team city team league of ireland or just the local club team ! Most county supporter do not go to any club game , people will follow any format once its entertaining ..

jfk21 (Dublin) - Posts: 51 - 16/05/2020 16:43:09    2278393

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I go to a lot of club and county game , its plain as day to see at the games with big attendance the majority of supporters have no connection to a local club .

jfk21 (Dublin) - Posts: 51 - 16/05/2020 16:47:16    2278395

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Replying To GreenandRed:  "As appallingly run as it was by the FAI how did the League of Ireland manage to pay even part-time players and coaches, never mind full time, on attendances of a bit more than 450K in 2019. They just have Derry City and the 26 counties for clubs. Some money comes in from UEFA and FIFA and a small bit of TV revenue but where does the cash come from? They've a small numbers of dedicated hardcore supporters that follow League of Ireland clubs in small stadiums rather than travel regularly over to the limelight of Premier League clubs. Plenty of players sign on in the off-season in between contracts. A fair few GAA people go to League of Ireland games too. But how have League of Ireland clubs survived?"
Many of the LOI clubs have had well publicised solvency issues, some have wealthy benefactors that keep them going with directors loans that may never be paid back etc. Qualifying for the European competitions can be huge for them but there are only so many places. A lot of the clubs live hand to mouth. I don't think it is a business model that the GAA should seek to emulate, not that that is what you are suggesting.

GeniusGerry (Kerry) - Posts: 2105 - 16/05/2020 17:45:23    2278399

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Replying To GeniusGerry:  "Would respectfully disagree. Look at the GAA accounts. Gate receipts is by far the biggest source of revenue, TV and streaming is about a quarter of gate receipts, roughly on par with the income from Croke Park (Conferences, concerts etc).

How much do you honestly think they can grow TV and streaming? The growth would have to come almost exclusively from overseas markets where you are competing with other sports with much deeper pockets.

London and New York already have teams and historically they have struggled to compete. Their playing pool can be a bit transient and their support is limited. They are expensive places to live so asking GAA players to move there to play football full time would be a real stretch."
Gerry you have lads there already so nobody is moving anywhere that doesn't want to move. And even if they did it would only be seasonal due to immigration restrictions, etc. Remember lads would be getting PAID so they wouldn't have to bother looking for work as their sport would be their job.

Gerry if the product wasn't good it would be a non issue but there are worse products out there doing quite well...

Trump2020 (Galway) - Posts: 2113 - 16/05/2020 17:49:46    2278400

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Replying To GeniusGerry:  "Without getting in to a long debate about formats if you are moving the league to the summer and trying to increase attendances and coverage of that competition then you'd need to simplify the championship rather than add new layers to it. There are only so many weeks in the summer to play games."
I would prefer to have an open draw pool stage followed by a knockout stage but I think we'll be stuck with the provincial format for some time to come.

Rolo2010 (Donegal) - Posts: 738 - 16/05/2020 18:07:52    2278402

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Replying To GreenandRed:  "As appallingly run as it was by the FAI how did the League of Ireland manage to pay even part-time players and coaches, never mind full time, on attendances of a bit more than 450K in 2019. They just have Derry City and the 26 counties for clubs. Some money comes in from UEFA and FIFA and a small bit of TV revenue but where does the cash come from? They've a small numbers of dedicated hardcore supporters that follow League of Ireland clubs in small stadiums rather than travel regularly over to the limelight of Premier League clubs. Plenty of players sign on in the off-season in between contracts. A fair few GAA people go to League of Ireland games too. But how have League of Ireland clubs survived?"
One other, sometimes lucrative, source of income for Irish soccer clubs is the money earned on transfers to the English leagues etc. This would never apply to GAA teams.

Cockney_Cat (UK) - Posts: 2446 - 16/05/2020 18:15:04    2278403

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Replying To GeniusGerry:  "Many of the LOI clubs have had well publicised solvency issues, some have wealthy benefactors that keep them going with directors loans that may never be paid back etc. Qualifying for the European competitions can be huge for them but there are only so many places. A lot of the clubs live hand to mouth. I don't think it is a business model that the GAA should seek to emulate, not that that is what you are suggesting."
No I'm not.More suggesting that as badly as it has been ran the League of Ireland could still pay players. If it was as well run as intercounty GAA, with those crowds and other revenues and still a possibility to get higher numbers at games and explore other revenue generators like, maybe, advertisements for some free online games, podcast apps, other media, then paying players is a possibility.

But if it strayed into merging counties and players playing outside their native counties I don't think I'd be interested, unless out of squad players for the stronger counties could play for so-called weaker counties. Not the other way around, the richer stronger counties poaching top players from so-called weaker counties. Ironically I think the county tradition, the local rivalries of provincial competition should remain, but probably that's backwards thinking, if GAA ever went professional he structure needs to be modernised and changed.

GreenandRed (Mayo) - Posts: 7335 - 16/05/2020 18:17:29    2278404

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Replying To Trump2020:  "Gerry you have lads there already so nobody is moving anywhere that doesn't want to move. And even if they did it would only be seasonal due to immigration restrictions, etc. Remember lads would be getting PAID so they wouldn't have to bother looking for work as their sport would be their job.

Gerry if the product wasn't good it would be a non issue but there are worse products out there doing quite well..."
London would be a poorly supported team. The Irish community in the city is nowhere near as strong as it once was. That's why the county board is desperate to increase the number of homegrown players in football.

Rolo2010 (Donegal) - Posts: 738 - 16/05/2020 18:39:44    2278406

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Replying To Rolo2010:  "London would be a poorly supported team. The Irish community in the city is nowhere near as strong as it once was. That's why the county board is desperate to increase the number of homegrown players in football."
Well London was just an example. If there's a better concentration in Liverpool or Manchester for example that could work too.

Trump2020 (Galway) - Posts: 2113 - 16/05/2020 18:52:18    2278407

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Replying To Trump2020:  "Gerry you have lads there already so nobody is moving anywhere that doesn't want to move. And even if they did it would only be seasonal due to immigration restrictions, etc. Remember lads would be getting PAID so they wouldn't have to bother looking for work as their sport would be their job.

Gerry if the product wasn't good it would be a non issue but there are worse products out there doing quite well..."
London or New York have never been competitive and paying their players won't change that to any great degree. The playing pool and fan base just isn't there. That's not to say there aren't good players and passionate GAA people there, there is just not enough of them.

The product is already good and the teams at the top are near enough professional athletes. The issue is that it is very hard for an indigenous sport like GAA to grow beyond it's own borders on a meaningful commercial level. I can't think of another sport that has done it very successfully. The viewing figures on SKY in the UK have been miserable by all accounts, even after several years marketing and showing the games there. America and Australia are the other obvious target markets but you have big issues with time differences there for live games. I'm just not seeing this pot of gold that you think is there.

GeniusGerry (Kerry) - Posts: 2105 - 16/05/2020 19:43:12    2278411

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Replying To Rolo2010:  "Agree but I can't see the Provincials being separated from the All-Ireland. They should introduce a pool stage in each championship in the meantime. It gives each team a minimum number of games against a mix of opposition. No backdoor or Tier 2. The provincial champions go into the All-Ireland SFs and that's it."
But they should to help in every way. They would still be very prestigious. I dont see many counties not treating them as highly as they do now if they were stand alone. And if they were stand alone and kerry/Dublin didnt put out complete full teams all the time because of their dominance and it meant other counties got more of a shot sometimes of a title then all the better for the sport
Pool stage should be introduced but unless you have pool stage in provinces how do you just have provincial champions going to all Ireland semi finals?

KillingFields (Limerick) - Posts: 3495 - 16/05/2020 20:43:52    2278416

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Replying To Trump2020:  "Well London was just an example. If there's a better concentration in Liverpool or Manchester for example that could work too."
There isn't.

Rolo2010 (Donegal) - Posts: 738 - 16/05/2020 21:24:38    2278417

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Replying To KillingFields:  "But they should to help in every way. They would still be very prestigious. I dont see many counties not treating them as highly as they do now if they were stand alone. And if they were stand alone and kerry/Dublin didnt put out complete full teams all the time because of their dominance and it meant other counties got more of a shot sometimes of a title then all the better for the sport
Pool stage should be introduced but unless you have pool stage in provinces how do you just have provincial champions going to all Ireland semi finals?"
The Provincials would still have a knockout stage after the pool stage. The GAA has expressed no interest in separating the Provincials from the All-Ireland. I would prefer an open draw championship minus New York.

Rolo2010 (Donegal) - Posts: 738 - 16/05/2020 21:30:56    2278419

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Replying To Rolo2010:  "There isn't."
Ok what's the "most Irish" part of England? Or where would you put a team?

Trump2020 (Galway) - Posts: 2113 - 16/05/2020 21:37:56    2278420

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Replying To GeniusGerry:  "London or New York have never been competitive and paying their players won't change that to any great degree. The playing pool and fan base just isn't there. That's not to say there aren't good players and passionate GAA people there, there is just not enough of them.

The product is already good and the teams at the top are near enough professional athletes. The issue is that it is very hard for an indigenous sport like GAA to grow beyond it's own borders on a meaningful commercial level. I can't think of another sport that has done it very successfully. The viewing figures on SKY in the UK have been miserable by all accounts, even after several years marketing and showing the games there. America and Australia are the other obvious target markets but you have big issues with time differences there for live games. I'm just not seeing this pot of gold that you think is there."
I would consider China and Japan as potential markets. I agree with you that it wouldn't be easy. Look how successful the Professional Wrestling is and it's FAKE! Look how successful the Harlem Globetrotters are and that's FAKE! Hurling is 100 times better.

Trump2020 (Galway) - Posts: 2113 - 16/05/2020 21:43:40    2278422

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Replying To Trump2020:  "Ok what's the "most Irish" part of England? Or where would you put a team?"
I wouldn't put a team anywhere. This isn't the 1970/80s anymore.

Rolo2010 (Donegal) - Posts: 738 - 16/05/2020 22:11:03    2278428

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Replying To Trump2020:  "I would consider China and Japan as potential markets. I agree with you that it wouldn't be easy. Look how successful the Professional Wrestling is and it's FAKE! Look how successful the Harlem Globetrotters are and that's FAKE! Hurling is 100 times better."
How dare you, professional wrestling is real are you telling me Undertaker went 21-0 before losing wasn't real

DuhallowRed (Cork) - Posts: 267 - 16/05/2020 22:44:55    2278432

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Replying To Trump2020:  "Ok what's the "most Irish" part of England? Or where would you put a team?"
London or any other Uk team would be no better supported in the stands than an Irish club team and with the exception of the provincial champ opener every year

Breezy (Limerick) - Posts: 1236 - 16/05/2020 23:42:05    2278435

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Replying To DuhallowRed:  "How dare you, professional wrestling is real are you telling me Undertaker went 21-0 before losing wasn't real"
Ha ha ha. You got me there.

Trump2020 (Galway) - Posts: 2113 - 17/05/2020 00:42:48    2278439

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