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Replying To jfk21: "A profesional league is very possible ( not in favour of it) . Nobody makes any reasonable argument in favour of professionalism on here because nobody wants it ...anybody can see the commmercial side of the Dublin team , that could be replcated in Antrim if you had a profesional league ! dublin, tipp ,waterford , cork Limerick , galway, wexford and kilkenny would be 8 teams with great support...most dual player in dublin would choose hurlin over amateur football ! People in Antrim will follow a team thst compedative . The huling championship took in 10 million lasy year , double the game and make that 20 million ...8 × 30 player a panel is 240 players . 50 k a year wages is 1.5 million a team wages , that a total of 12 million wages . A profesional league is very possible the maths are simple enough . To further my point ireland is not that small ! The original afl was run from one state with a polulation of 5 million !" You can't just say double the games, double the money! How much of that was took in from semi finals and final?
achara (Monaghan) - Posts: 562 - 16/05/2020 08:44:09
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If hurling or football became professional the major change would be that players would not be tied to one county or team. Any player would have the right to ply his trade where ever he chooses, and there would also be transfers between clubs for players still under contract. The current inter county set up under the GAA would probably be replaced with clubs, similar to soccer. Dublin would probably have at least two clubs.
Cockney_Cat (UK) - Posts: 2466 - 16/05/2020 08:46:29
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Replying To achara: "You can't just say double the games, double the money! How much of that was took in from semi finals and final?" Antrim would be luck if 6000 people wached them last year. 400 k people went to league of ireland soccer game last year ( 40k + a season for a few teams) , how many people could you get to support a profesional leaague in hurling or football with the above figures ? I would say double you income would be possible from a profesional league alone , the you have championship also ! It a small minded mentality saying profesional is not possible ! The best comparison of a successful indigenous sport is Australia it was 90 % run out of one state smaller than ireland . I not in favour of professionalism but league but its so obvious it possible to suppot one financially
jfk21 (Dublin) - Posts: 51 - 16/05/2020 09:55:16
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The league of ireland has a year attendance of 400k a year ! Of course Gaa supporters only have an appetite for 3 games per year . Produce a quality city base league and people will follow it ! You can have championship in conjunction with the league. The question was could professionalism survive , my answer is it would thrive
jfk21 (Dublin) - Posts: 51 - 16/05/2020 10:07:11
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Replying To Rolo2010: "They'll come because they don't expect the grounds to be like the ones used by professional sports." You've been watching too much Premier League soccer at their shiny stadia.
It's not like that all the way dopwn the leagues.
lionofludesch (Down) - Posts: 475 - 16/05/2020 10:28:44
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Replying To jfk21: "A profesional league is very possible ( not in favour of it) . Nobody makes any reasonable argument in favour of professionalism on here because nobody wants it ...anybody can see the commmercial side of the Dublin team , that could be replcated in Antrim if you had a profesional league ! dublin, tipp ,waterford , cork Limerick , galway, wexford and kilkenny would be 8 teams with great support...most dual player in dublin would choose hurlin over amateur football ! People in Antrim will follow a team thst compedative . The huling championship took in 10 million lasy year , double the game and make that 20 million ...8 × 30 player a panel is 240 players . 50 k a year wages is 1.5 million a team wages , that a total of 12 million wages . A profesional league is very possible the maths are simple enough . To further my point ireland is not that small ! The original afl was run from one state with a polulation of 5 million !" Where are Antrim going to play ?
Clones ?
You can't just borrow a soccer or rugby stadium for your professional league. They're just not big enough so you need a dedicated GAA sized stadium.
lionofludesch (Down) - Posts: 475 - 16/05/2020 11:15:56
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Pay for play is inevitable but I don't think it will ever be professional in the sense that we will have full time GAA players. The players grants scheme that already exists could be broadened and deepened but that is probably as far as it will go.
Some people just don't seem to understand how tiny the Irish market is, and the GAA has really limited appeal in other markets. Professional leagues need TV money and substantial sponsorship if you want to give players attractive benefits, the deals with RTE and Sky are really not that lucrative when you compare them to other sports. The GAA might be able to get more out of it with a new professional setup but there is still a relatively low ceiling in my opinion.
Added to that there are so many teams, 30 + in both codes but probably 6-8 teams in each that would be contenders each year. Would all 60 + be professional or would an elite super league setup be preferred? I'm not sure there is any appetite whatsoever for the latter. Football generates a lot more revenue than hurling as well as things stand so that's another delicate factor.
Another question is what effect would a professional league have on the grass roots. Whatever we think of the GAA's financial model most of the profit gets reinvested in the sport in one form or another. Taking large amounts of revenue out to pay professional teams will have a trickle down effect at every level.
The debate isn't going away and I can see why some people feel it would benefit the sport and players but the sums don't work without huge additional revenue in my opinion. If it did the GAA community be openly considering it at a high level but they aren't.
I would say that the demand currently placed on inter county players are unsustainable. You have near professional levels of commitment required with little reward and you'd have to ask why players outside that 6-8 contender group would bother at this stage. I'm not sure what the answer is on that one.
GeniusGerry (Kerry) - Posts: 2105 - 16/05/2020 11:41:21
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Replying To GeniusGerry: "Pay for play is inevitable but I don't think it will ever be professional in the sense that we will have full time GAA players. The players grants scheme that already exists could be broadened and deepened but that is probably as far as it will go.
Some people just don't seem to understand how tiny the Irish market is, and the GAA has really limited appeal in other markets. Professional leagues need TV money and substantial sponsorship if you want to give players attractive benefits, the deals with RTE and Sky are really not that lucrative when you compare them to other sports. The GAA might be able to get more out of it with a new professional setup but there is still a relatively low ceiling in my opinion.
Added to that there are so many teams, 30 + in both codes but probably 6-8 teams in each that would be contenders each year. Would all 60 + be professional or would an elite super league setup be preferred? I'm not sure there is any appetite whatsoever for the latter. Football generates a lot more revenue than hurling as well as things stand so that's another delicate factor.
Another question is what effect would a professional league have on the grass roots. Whatever we think of the GAA's financial model most of the profit gets reinvested in the sport in one form or another. Taking large amounts of revenue out to pay professional teams will have a trickle down effect at every level.
The debate isn't going away and I can see why some people feel it would benefit the sport and players but the sums don't work without huge additional revenue in my opinion. If it did the GAA community be openly considering it at a high level but they aren't.
I would say that the demand currently placed on inter county players are unsustainable. You have near professional levels of commitment required with little reward and you'd have to ask why players outside that 6-8 contender group would bother at this stage. I'm not sure what the answer is on that one." Genius, one of the mistakes you and others are making in this is that you're looking at it as an "only Ireland" thing as far as attendance goes. NYC and London could probably support a team. And the attendance isn't the biggest item anyway Television and Streaming is. You could actually give tickets very cheaply at first just to get things rolling. Investors would understand it's a Long Term Investment and probably wouldn't turn a profit the first few years. Meanwhile you'd have teams of lads as full time employees.
Trump2020 (Galway) - Posts: 2120 - 16/05/2020 11:59:38
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Replying To GeniusGerry: "Pay for play is inevitable but I don't think it will ever be professional in the sense that we will have full time GAA players. The players grants scheme that already exists could be broadened and deepened but that is probably as far as it will go.
Some people just don't seem to understand how tiny the Irish market is, and the GAA has really limited appeal in other markets. Professional leagues need TV money and substantial sponsorship if you want to give players attractive benefits, the deals with RTE and Sky are really not that lucrative when you compare them to other sports. The GAA might be able to get more out of it with a new professional setup but there is still a relatively low ceiling in my opinion.
Added to that there are so many teams, 30 + in both codes but probably 6-8 teams in each that would be contenders each year. Would all 60 + be professional or would an elite super league setup be preferred? I'm not sure there is any appetite whatsoever for the latter. Football generates a lot more revenue than hurling as well as things stand so that's another delicate factor.
Another question is what effect would a professional league have on the grass roots. Whatever we think of the GAA's financial model most of the profit gets reinvested in the sport in one form or another. Taking large amounts of revenue out to pay professional teams will have a trickle down effect at every level.
The debate isn't going away and I can see why some people feel it would benefit the sport and players but the sums don't work without huge additional revenue in my opinion. If it did the GAA community be openly considering it at a high level but they aren't.
I would say that the demand currently placed on inter county players are unsustainable. You have near professional levels of commitment required with little reward and you'd have to ask why players outside that 6-8 contender group would bother at this stage. I'm not sure what the answer is on that one." Gerry in your view is the gaa a communist organisation?
Now I know players aren't forced to play but in fairness the gaa can afford to build a 13 million euro centre of excellence in dublin plus buy a farm in Co Meath to grow their own pitches and buy clonlife college to build another 5/6 pitches and a massive hotel but they can't give a few extra euro to the country teams.
KingdomBoy1 (Kerry) - Posts: 14092 - 16/05/2020 12:08:30
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Replying To GeniusGerry: "Pay for play is inevitable but I don't think it will ever be professional in the sense that we will have full time GAA players. The players grants scheme that already exists could be broadened and deepened but that is probably as far as it will go.
Some people just don't seem to understand how tiny the Irish market is, and the GAA has really limited appeal in other markets. Professional leagues need TV money and substantial sponsorship if you want to give players attractive benefits, the deals with RTE and Sky are really not that lucrative when you compare them to other sports. The GAA might be able to get more out of it with a new professional setup but there is still a relatively low ceiling in my opinion.
Added to that there are so many teams, 30 + in both codes but probably 6-8 teams in each that would be contenders each year. Would all 60 + be professional or would an elite super league setup be preferred? I'm not sure there is any appetite whatsoever for the latter. Football generates a lot more revenue than hurling as well as things stand so that's another delicate factor.
Another question is what effect would a professional league have on the grass roots. Whatever we think of the GAA's financial model most of the profit gets reinvested in the sport in one form or another. Taking large amounts of revenue out to pay professional teams will have a trickle down effect at every level.
The debate isn't going away and I can see why some people feel it would benefit the sport and players but the sums don't work without huge additional revenue in my opinion. If it did the GAA community be openly considering it at a high level but they aren't.
I would say that the demand currently placed on inter county players are unsustainable. You have near professional levels of commitment required with little reward and you'd have to ask why players outside that 6-8 contender group would bother at this stage. I'm not sure what the answer is on that one." Yep. Not every county would be able to afford full professional contracts for 35-40 players in addition to a head coach, assistant coaches, physios, logistics staff. Some counties would be only able to go part time.
Competitions would have to change to allow more games to make professionalism worthwhile. And TV rights media rights would
On sponsorship you would if sport was professional have players getting individual sponsors in addition to team deals which could help pay wages. Player is sponsored by a company who in return gets that player to help market their goods/services. Players would be paid brand ambassadors. This would help reduce money paid from central gaa funds for wages
KillingFields (Limerick) - Posts: 3510 - 16/05/2020 12:21:37
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Replying To jfk21: "Antrim would be luck if 6000 people wached them last year. 400 k people went to league of ireland soccer game last year ( 40k + a season for a few teams) , how many people could you get to support a profesional leaague in hurling or football with the above figures ? I would say double you income would be possible from a profesional league alone , the you have championship also ! It a small minded mentality saying profesional is not possible ! The best comparison of a successful indigenous sport is Australia it was 90 % run out of one state smaller than ireland . I not in favour of professionalism but league but its so obvious it possible to suppot one financially" The GAA were far more deep rooted in every small town and county in Ireland and far more developed as an Indigenous organisation than anything in Australia before they started their professional set up. They didn't have the same level of commitment to clubs and community to compete with that you would have here.
They did have other sports to compete with of course but that's different, you have that here too. The GAA is the biggest and most far reaching sports organisation in this country whereas Aussie rules was not and is not in Australia.
catch22 (USA) - Posts: 2148 - 16/05/2020 12:33:55
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As appallingly run as it was by the FAI how did the League of Ireland manage to pay even part-time players and coaches, never mind full time, on attendances of a bit more than 450K in 2019. They just have Derry City and the 26 counties for clubs. Some money comes in from UEFA and FIFA and a small bit of TV revenue but where does the cash come from? They've a small numbers of dedicated hardcore supporters that follow League of Ireland clubs in small stadiums rather than travel regularly over to the limelight of Premier League clubs. Plenty of players sign on in the off-season in between contracts. A fair few GAA people go to League of Ireland games too. But how have League of Ireland clubs survived?
GreenandRed (Mayo) - Posts: 7345 - 16/05/2020 12:55:53
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Replying To Trump2020: "Genius, one of the mistakes you and others are making in this is that you're looking at it as an "only Ireland" thing as far as attendance goes. NYC and London could probably support a team. And the attendance isn't the biggest item anyway Television and Streaming is. You could actually give tickets very cheaply at first just to get things rolling. Investors would understand it's a Long Term Investment and probably wouldn't turn a profit the first few years. Meanwhile you'd have teams of lads as full time employees." Where would you play in London ?
There's a school of thought that people expect much better stadia once you're a professional game.
lionofludesch (Down) - Posts: 475 - 16/05/2020 13:02:18
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We could probably support a pro league of 8 to 10 teams in each code as long as everyone accepted that the wage would never be much more than an average worker and everyone is paid the same.
It looks to me like the problem with most sports once they turn pro is the mad dash to earn soccer style money and coverage around the world which is bankrupting both codes of rugby and is usually very unpopular in a sports heartland.
For instance Im a big cycling and am more than happy to see it remain a minority sport rather than the current lust to chase the money in Dubai and the likes at the expense of 100yo races in europe and the same seems to be happening to many sports
Breezy (Limerick) - Posts: 1236 - 16/05/2020 13:15:34
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Replying To Trump2020: "Genius, one of the mistakes you and others are making in this is that you're looking at it as an "only Ireland" thing as far as attendance goes. NYC and London could probably support a team. And the attendance isn't the biggest item anyway Television and Streaming is. You could actually give tickets very cheaply at first just to get things rolling. Investors would understand it's a Long Term Investment and probably wouldn't turn a profit the first few years. Meanwhile you'd have teams of lads as full time employees." Would respectfully disagree. Look at the GAA accounts. Gate receipts is by far the biggest source of revenue, TV and streaming is about a quarter of gate receipts, roughly on par with the income from Croke Park (Conferences, concerts etc).
How much do you honestly think they can grow TV and streaming? The growth would have to come almost exclusively from overseas markets where you are competing with other sports with much deeper pockets.
London and New York already have teams and historically they have struggled to compete. Their playing pool can be a bit transient and their support is limited. They are expensive places to live so asking GAA players to move there to play football full time would be a real stretch.
GeniusGerry (Kerry) - Posts: 2105 - 16/05/2020 13:31:29
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Replying To KingdomBoy1: "Gerry in your view is the gaa a communist organisation?
Now I know players aren't forced to play but in fairness the gaa can afford to build a 13 million euro centre of excellence in dublin plus buy a farm in Co Meath to grow their own pitches and buy clonlife college to build another 5/6 pitches and a massive hotel but they can't give a few extra euro to the country teams." I don't know an awful lot about those investments Kboy, how they were planned, who signed off on them etc. I don't have strong feelings either way to be quite honest about it.
I'd agree players are under-rewarded, look at the AI football final and replay last year and the money both games generated and the players don't see any of it for their herculean efforts. That's wrong imo.
GeniusGerry (Kerry) - Posts: 2105 - 16/05/2020 13:37:30
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Replying To KillingFields: "Yep. Not every county would be able to afford full professional contracts for 35-40 players in addition to a head coach, assistant coaches, physios, logistics staff. Some counties would be only able to go part time.
Competitions would have to change to allow more games to make professionalism worthwhile. And TV rights media rights would
On sponsorship you would if sport was professional have players getting individual sponsors in addition to team deals which could help pay wages. Player is sponsored by a company who in return gets that player to help market their goods/services. Players would be paid brand ambassadors. This would help reduce money paid from central gaa funds for wages" My own view has always been that the GAA should move to a summer based league and run it alongside a seeded knockout championship. Invest in grounds across the country to host all the games.
We run our best competition from January to April when pitches are in bits and the weather is awful. Play the provincial championships then instead as standalone competitions.
Covid19 offers a perfect opportunity to reset competition formats, albeit in very unfortunate circumstances.
The player brand ambassador thing is already happening, many of the players from the top counties in both codes have sponsored vehicles and other benefits. I wouldn't begrudge anybody anything they get from their profile as long as there is transparency and at least an element of revenue sharing, I.e. so that a small number of star players don't get everything.
GeniusGerry (Kerry) - Posts: 2105 - 16/05/2020 13:48:04
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Replying To GeniusGerry: "My own view has always been that the GAA should move to a summer based league and run it alongside a seeded knockout championship. Invest in grounds across the country to host all the games.
We run our best competition from January to April when pitches are in bits and the weather is awful. Play the provincial championships then instead as standalone competitions.
Covid19 offers a perfect opportunity to reset competition formats, albeit in very unfortunate circumstances.
The player brand ambassador thing is already happening, many of the players from the top counties in both codes have sponsored vehicles and other benefits. I wouldn't begrudge anybody anything they get from their profile as long as there is transparency and at least an element of revenue sharing, I.e. so that a small number of star players don't get everything." It happens to a small degree but could be extended further and players receive greater reward and also do more for those businesses.
Yes you need to change league both when its played and structure and this would help a professional structure more.
KillingFields (Limerick) - Posts: 3510 - 16/05/2020 14:34:34
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Replying To GeniusGerry: "My own view has always been that the GAA should move to a summer based league and run it alongside a seeded knockout championship. Invest in grounds across the country to host all the games.
We run our best competition from January to April when pitches are in bits and the weather is awful. Play the provincial championships then instead as standalone competitions.
Covid19 offers a perfect opportunity to reset competition formats, albeit in very unfortunate circumstances.
The player brand ambassador thing is already happening, many of the players from the top counties in both codes have sponsored vehicles and other benefits. I wouldn't begrudge anybody anything they get from their profile as long as there is transparency and at least an element of revenue sharing, I.e. so that a small number of star players don't get everything." Agree but I can't see the Provincials being separated from the All-Ireland. They should introduce a pool stage in each championship in the meantime. It gives each team a minimum number of games against a mix of opposition. No backdoor or Tier 2. The provincial champions go into the All-Ireland SFs and that's it.
Rolo2010 (Donegal) - Posts: 738 - 16/05/2020 15:12:45
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Replying To GeniusGerry: "I don't know an awful lot about those investments Kboy, how they were planned, who signed off on them etc. I don't have strong feelings either way to be quite honest about it.
I'd agree players are under-rewarded, look at the AI football final and replay last year and the money both games generated and the players don't see any of it for their herculean efforts. That's wrong imo." That's true Gerry, they could surely spring for a team holiday for teams that reach the super 8s in football and quarter finals in hurling, Holy fook 1 more concert in Croker would take care of that at least.
KingdomBoy1 (Kerry) - Posts: 14092 - 16/05/2020 15:56:06
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