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Could A Professional Hurling/Football League Survive In Ireland?

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Replying To Trump2020:  "Disney owns ESPN."
So what's the commercial advantage ?

lionofludesch (Down) - Posts: 475 - 01/06/2020 18:09:44    2279669

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Replying To Trump2020:  "No they are not there to develop the game but if done right they'd make money and that's what investors want."
You keep saying "if done right, they'd make money>"

I don't think they would.

lionofludesch (Down) - Posts: 475 - 01/06/2020 18:12:29    2279670

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Replying To lionofludesch:  "So what's the commercial advantage ?"
Disney owning ESPN. ESPN showing this Professional League. Ratings slowly go up. Ratings equals money. ESPN shows far worse stuff right now. Disney also owns ABC and Disney streaming service. Plenty of opportunities for a good sports package.

Trump2020 (Galway) - Posts: 2113 - 01/06/2020 18:33:24    2279672

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Replying To lionofludesch:  "You keep saying "if done right, they'd make money>"

I don't think they would."
Well if done wrong it would fail so....of course it needs to be done right or what's the point? An awesome plan would have to be laid out or you'd get no investors to begin with. Look at the origins of most Leagues. Most were very humble.

Trump2020 (Galway) - Posts: 2113 - 01/06/2020 18:36:44    2279673

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Replying To Trump2020:  "Disney owning ESPN. ESPN showing this Professional League. Ratings slowly go up. Ratings equals money. ESPN shows far worse stuff right now. Disney also owns ABC and Disney streaming service. Plenty of opportunities for a good sports package."
Disney couldn't own ESPN and a team if ESPN was one of the broadcasters for the league their team was participating in. Would be a conflict of interest.

GreenandRed (Mayo) - Posts: 7337 - 01/06/2020 20:34:02    2279679

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Replying To GreenandRed:  "Disney couldn't own ESPN and a team if ESPN was one of the broadcasters for the league their team was participating in. Would be a conflict of interest."
I could have sworn they had sponsored a car in NASCAR and showed the races.

Trump2020 (Galway) - Posts: 2113 - 01/06/2020 20:57:23    2279680

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Replying To Trump2020:  "The professional league could help the GAA in more ways than one. Firstly renting GAA pitches and stadiums brings in money from places that might have been empty, if the game sold overseas it would generate tourism for the matches and many would go to GAA matches too. With the increased tourism maybe Aer Lingus could sponsor and name a team.
If you have to modify the rules a little so be it but be careful of butchering it too much. At first the League could be centered in Ireland but maybe by time it would move to somewhere bigger if it took off."
We'd have to assume relations between a renegade Pro set up and GAA would not be healthy to put it mildly (it would be outright war, a la Rugby Union v League in decade past, when League was violating the 'amateur' ethos of Union (different now as both are Pro).
The gaelic Pro set up would have to rent pitches from other codes - soccer and rugby - it would be a different game - say 11-a-side on a smaller pitch, with some innovative new rules.

omahant (USA) - Posts: 2570 - 02/06/2020 00:13:36    2279692

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Replying To Trump2020:  "North-South divide? Could be solved by a Professional League. Think about it: if a lad growing up in a "weak" Hurling county wants to play he really doesn't have a lot of incentive under the current way but if he has INCENTIVE to train and play on a team that has a REALISTIC chance of winning and competing and gets paid to do it then the sky is the limit. What Grade would you give the GAA in developing Hurling in the "weaker" counties? Could a Professional League do worse?
As for making money for the Promoters, investors, shareholders, etc all would depend on a lot of factors such as marketing, recruiting, etc. Like I said it would be a Long Term investment, not overnight. Most people have some types of long term investments already so nothing strange there. Look at the history of the NFL. Started very humble. I see a lot of sports on television that puts me to sleep and I believe Hurling and Football are 100 times a superior product."
If a corporate interest is willing to invest in a Pro team, how much minimum return would it want for $1 mn in equity risk ? - say, 20% = $200k.

Costs - say a 30-player panel share $1 mn in annual income/contracts, and the inclusion of all other costs (for rent, insurance etc) drives the bill to $4 mn per year.

With the profit margin above, we need turnover/ revenues of $4.2 mn.

Renenues based on gate receipts alone would be too much of a stretch - say, $4.2mn ÷ 15 guaranteed match season ÷ 6,666 attendence = $42 per match ticket (ouch).

If two-thirds (of $4.2mn, or $2.8mn) could come from a tournament sponsor and TV money, the match ticket could get reduced to $14 (one-third).

Could these initial numbers work and grow over time ? The quality of the game product will determine fan interest, which in turn would attract business interests, and ultimately, project success.

omahant (USA) - Posts: 2570 - 02/06/2020 01:08:47    2279694

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So, I've got $2.8mn needed in Sponsorship/TV money PER TEAM - if ONE investor buys a given franchise for a modest $ ONE MILLION.

Aggregate Sponsorship/TV and enhanced investor equity appetite would ultimately determine how many teams can be sustained.

Is this workable ?

omahant (USA) - Posts: 2570 - 02/06/2020 01:22:23    2279695

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Replying To Trump2020:  "Well if done wrong it would fail so....of course it needs to be done right or what's the point? An awesome plan would have to be laid out or you'd get no investors to begin with. Look at the origins of most Leagues. Most were very humble."
I think you could do it as "right" as you like and still fail.

The origins of most leagues were humble because the world wasn't so commercially motivated a hundred years ago.

lionofludesch (Down) - Posts: 475 - 02/06/2020 09:55:33    2279702

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Replying To Trump2020:  "Disney owning ESPN. ESPN showing this Professional League. Ratings slowly go up. Ratings equals money. ESPN shows far worse stuff right now. Disney also owns ABC and Disney streaming service. Plenty of opportunities for a good sports package."
So, setting aside Greenandred's very valid comment, all you have to do is persuade Disney to sponsor a GAA team, get - dunno - fifteen or twenty - other sponsors, get ESPN to show it on their channel, ratings will obviously go up, Disney will make money (not sure whether the other sponsors will), crowds will flock in and everyone will be happy.

For me, it's a bit of a stretch. I don't consider myself pessimistic but I am a realist.

lionofludesch (Down) - Posts: 475 - 02/06/2020 10:04:28    2279703

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Replying To omahant:  "We'd have to assume relations between a renegade Pro set up and GAA would not be healthy to put it mildly (it would be outright war, a la Rugby Union v League in decade past, when League was violating the 'amateur' ethos of Union (different now as both are Pro).
The gaelic Pro set up would have to rent pitches from other codes - soccer and rugby - it would be a different game - say 11-a-side on a smaller pitch, with some innovative new rules."
It's not really Rugby Union v Rugby League. A better comparison is with Rupert Murdoch's World Series Cricket (1970s) and Rugby League Superleague (about 1997). Set up his own organisations, massive disruption for a period, sides come together and peace breaks out.

Of course, both these were about Murdoch wanting to show cricket and Rugby League on his TV channels, especially in Australia. I don't see that sort of demand for gaelic games from ESPN - or anyone else for that matter.

lionofludesch (Down) - Posts: 475 - 02/06/2020 10:12:16    2279704

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Replying To lionofludesch:  "It's not really Rugby Union v Rugby League. A better comparison is with Rupert Murdoch's World Series Cricket (1970s) and Rugby League Superleague (about 1997). Set up his own organisations, massive disruption for a period, sides come together and peace breaks out.

Of course, both these were about Murdoch wanting to show cricket and Rugby League on his TV channels, especially in Australia. I don't see that sort of demand for gaelic games from ESPN - or anyone else for that matter."
The formation of super League is a very interesting read in terms of the battle between corporate and grass roots. The money men wanted to amalgamate so of the famous old Northern clubs like Wakefield with rival clubs to make room for new teams in big markets like London

Breezy (Limerick) - Posts: 1236 - 02/06/2020 10:46:11    2279708

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It would be very hard to see how professionalism could survive. Crowds by and large are poor for most I/C games as it is. Facilities are not great either. People will put up with the facilities because they know someone tried their best in their spare time probably for free to make the place presentable. Would people be as tolerant if professionalism was in.

Also imagine all the hidden costs. Would counties be able to have fundraisers if they were professional outfits?? It is one thing raising money for amateurs but to pay someones wages??

Would we get TV money?? Doubt it. Our hands are not exactly being bitten off at present.

The only possible way is to reduce the number of teams involved or amalgamate counties. That would cause WW111.

Mayonman (Galway) - Posts: 1826 - 02/06/2020 11:24:57    2279711

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Replying To omahant:  "We'd have to assume relations between a renegade Pro set up and GAA would not be healthy to put it mildly (it would be outright war, a la Rugby Union v League in decade past, when League was violating the 'amateur' ethos of Union (different now as both are Pro).
The gaelic Pro set up would have to rent pitches from other codes - soccer and rugby - it would be a different game - say 11-a-side on a smaller pitch, with some innovative new rules."
When I use the term "if done right" part of it is having a healthy relationship with the GAA and Government, etc. You would have to make the GAA see that it could benefit them too whether by the renting fees being paid to them or by worldwide spread of the games at a far higher level than before, etc. In fact going against the GAA would almost surely doom it right from the start.

Trump2020 (Galway) - Posts: 2113 - 02/06/2020 11:51:34    2279716

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Replying To Mayonman:  "It would be very hard to see how professionalism could survive. Crowds by and large are poor for most I/C games as it is. Facilities are not great either. People will put up with the facilities because they know someone tried their best in their spare time probably for free to make the place presentable. Would people be as tolerant if professionalism was in.

Also imagine all the hidden costs. Would counties be able to have fundraisers if they were professional outfits?? It is one thing raising money for amateurs but to pay someones wages??

Would we get TV money?? Doubt it. Our hands are not exactly being bitten off at present.

The only possible way is to reduce the number of teams involved or amalgamate counties. That would cause WW111."
The idea that because its professional the facilities must be like croke park everywhere is crazy.
Counties could of course have fundraisers even if professional. You could have supporters clubs in each county which sell the season tickets and have fundraising through them
Everyone is talking nd thinking of pro sport with super high wages. That isnt the case and wont be unless you get extensive private support. Now for professionalism to occur you could get county boards and the county squads to have partnerships with local businesses to help pay wages and do as I said earlier and have players do some coaching/development work in schools.

You would need to get people used to attending games on a very regular basis which doesnt happen in the gaa.

KillingFields (Limerick) - Posts: 3499 - 02/06/2020 12:22:07    2279722

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Replying To Trump2020:  "When I use the term "if done right" part of it is having a healthy relationship with the GAA and Government, etc. You would have to make the GAA see that it could benefit them too whether by the renting fees being paid to them or by worldwide spread of the games at a far higher level than before, etc. In fact going against the GAA would almost surely doom it right from the start."
Where's this worldwide spread coming from? Cycling, rugby, American football and probably some other sports I know nothing about are breaking their backs to go worldwide and barely making a dent so why would GAA be any different

Breezy (Limerick) - Posts: 1236 - 02/06/2020 12:31:45    2279723

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Replying To Breezy:  "The formation of super League is a very interesting read in terms of the battle between corporate and grass roots. The money men wanted to amalgamate so of the famous old Northern clubs like Wakefield with rival clubs to make room for new teams in big markets like London"
That was the UK battle which resolved itself fairly quickly.

In Australia, there were two rival leagues in 1997 and the "battle" ended with some clubs disappearing and some in genuine mergers. The bitterness exists today.

lionofludesch (Down) - Posts: 475 - 02/06/2020 13:15:18    2279728

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Replying To Trump2020:  "When I use the term "if done right" part of it is having a healthy relationship with the GAA and Government, etc. You would have to make the GAA see that it could benefit them too whether by the renting fees being paid to them or by worldwide spread of the games at a far higher level than before, etc. In fact going against the GAA would almost surely doom it right from the start."
If I was Uachtaran, I'd see it as you offering to pay rent so that you could steal our customers.

lionofludesch (Down) - Posts: 475 - 02/06/2020 13:17:31    2279729

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Replying To lionofludesch:  "That was the UK battle which resolved itself fairly quickly.

In Australia, there were two rival leagues in 1997 and the "battle" ended with some clubs disappearing and some in genuine mergers. The bitterness exists today."
Thanks I might give that a Google tonight. I'm fascinated by sports on those crossroads moments even if I have no interest in the sports themselves

Breezy (Limerick) - Posts: 1236 - 02/06/2020 15:22:50    2279735

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