National Forum

6 Team Leinster Cship

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Replying To wexico15:  "Don't understand all the negative comments, it was common sense as far as I'm concerned, I'd have no issue Kerry playing in leinster as it seems they've been abandoned by the other 5 Munster counties, self interests can be a terrible thing."
You do know Kerry played in the Munster championship until 2004, right? As I recall, they took themselves out of the Munster championship due to consistently heavy defeats they suffered every year, they weren't forced out by other Munster counties. Am I wrong?

And how exactly are the other Munster counties actively blocking Kerrys re-admittance? If everyone else but them wants Kerry back in, how would 5 counties defeat all other 32+ boards in any motion? When it comes to hurling in general, everyone could be doing better.

That said, the current promotion/relegation system is completely wrong. If Kerry win the Joe McDonagh, they should be promoted to the Munster championship directly.
But, if anyone is really concerned about Kerry coming back into Munster hurling, there is good news. After winning 3 All-Ireland B titles on the trot, Kerry are back in the Munster U20 championship this year. Next step, get the minor hurlers back in the Munster championship. Players need to be playing and competing with the top teams at underage, before they can expect to bridge any gaps at Senior level. Alot of people are getting that back to front.

And while I still think that increasing the Leinster championship to 6 teams is premature, at least Carlow, Westmeath, Laois etc have been playing in Leinster underage. Thats why I'm going to keep an open mind on this change, and hope it works out (even if league results so far are not a good sign). I just don't want us to go back to a championship where any team is satisfied with a moral victory.

Marlon_JD (Tipperary) - Posts: 1823 - 02/03/2020 18:38:53    2271760

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Also to those saying that Offaly will win the Macdonagh cup this year, it would be some achievement as they are not playing in it.

HAHA! Thought the same.

UpOffaly (Offaly) - Posts: 68 - 02/03/2020 19:06:35    2271768

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Replying To Marlon_JD:  "You do know Kerry played in the Munster championship until 2004, right? As I recall, they took themselves out of the Munster championship due to consistently heavy defeats they suffered every year, they weren't forced out by other Munster counties. Am I wrong?

And how exactly are the other Munster counties actively blocking Kerrys re-admittance? If everyone else but them wants Kerry back in, how would 5 counties defeat all other 32+ boards in any motion? When it comes to hurling in general, everyone could be doing better.

That said, the current promotion/relegation system is completely wrong. If Kerry win the Joe McDonagh, they should be promoted to the Munster championship directly.
But, if anyone is really concerned about Kerry coming back into Munster hurling, there is good news. After winning 3 All-Ireland B titles on the trot, Kerry are back in the Munster U20 championship this year. Next step, get the minor hurlers back in the Munster championship. Players need to be playing and competing with the top teams at underage, before they can expect to bridge any gaps at Senior level. Alot of people are getting that back to front.

And while I still think that increasing the Leinster championship to 6 teams is premature, at least Carlow, Westmeath, Laois etc have been playing in Leinster underage. Thats why I'm going to keep an open mind on this change, and hope it works out (even if league results so far are not a good sign). I just don't want us to go back to a championship where any team is satisfied with a moral victory."
But the fact that the Munster championship is essentially ring fenced is Kerry been abandoned. The fact Munster is protected and leinster isn't is flawed. There should be relegation play off between 5th in Munster and leinster, look I'm 99% certain the Munster team would win, last year it would have been Waterford v carlow but for the transparency of the competition it should take place.

bostonredsox (Wexford) - Posts: 4368 - 02/03/2020 21:14:37    2271796

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Replying To wexico15:  "But the fact that the Munster championship is essentially ring fenced is Kerry been abandoned. The fact Munster is protected and leinster isn't is flawed. There should be relegation play off between 5th in Munster and leinster, look I'm 99% certain the Munster team would win, last year it would have been Waterford v carlow but for the transparency of the competition it should take place."
I dont think that's the debate here though. The point of the thread is that Leinster should or should not have 6 teams in it. Personally I think it is definitely premature. I'm not against the idea at all but doing it now is too soon. (That part is flawed yes).

The attendances are poor in the Joe Mc as Carlovia said but promote them and put them as double headers with cship games. Alternate the Joe Mc finals each year as a curtain raiser to the Leinster and Munster finals . Pump effort and money into and you'll drive the support and interest levels up. There's plenty of things that can be done but I dont agree with the 6 team Leinster cship especially considering the mess the club situation is in.

tiobraid (Tipperary) - Posts: 4119 - 02/03/2020 22:16:21    2271808

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There are solid arguments on both sides.Clearly the Mcdonagh is a very good and very competitive compensation and has the potential to be diluted.I think the league's should go down the road of an eight team division 1 and the same in division 2.Nevertheless Laois,Carlow, Westmeath, Antrim,Kerry and Offaly all counties who invest heavily in hurling deserve the opportunity to play in their provincial championships.

jobber (Westmeath) - Posts: 1457 - 02/03/2020 22:34:21    2271812

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Replying To wexico15:  "But the fact that the Munster championship is essentially ring fenced is Kerry been abandoned. The fact Munster is protected and leinster isn't is flawed. There should be relegation play off between 5th in Munster and leinster, look I'm 99% certain the Munster team would win, last year it would have been Waterford v carlow but for the transparency of the competition it should take place."
What would be the purpose if the relegation game? would Laois replace Waterford in Munster if Carlow won

Breezy (Limerick) - Posts: 1236 - 02/03/2020 23:05:01    2271819

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Replying To jobber:  "There are solid arguments on both sides.Clearly the Mcdonagh is a very good and very competitive compensation and has the potential to be diluted.I think the league's should go down the road of an eight team division 1 and the same in division 2.Nevertheless Laois,Carlow, Westmeath, Antrim,Kerry and Offaly all counties who invest heavily in hurling deserve the opportunity to play in their provincial championships."
Do you think it would do them any good though to potentially take 2/3/4 hammerings in Leinster? Do you feel they are all ready for it? Genuine question.

It's important these teams improve and I think the Joe Mc Cup is the best option for some of these to improve.

My club is intermediate in Tipp and I'd love to be playing senior but I don't for a second think we have right to be senior when we haven't shown we deserve it yet....

tiobraid (Tipperary) - Posts: 4119 - 03/03/2020 23:48:07    2272096

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Replying To tiobraid:  "With all due respect to Kerry what are they going to get from being in the Munster cship. They have improved dramatically but they aren't ready yet. I think any Kerry hurling person will agree with that. If they win the Joe Mc cup then they should get their chance for sure.
Laois, Westmeath, carlow, Kerry have all benefited massively from competitive games every week.
The new system will see half of the teams take big beating and the other half dish out big beatings from the teams from the Christy ring. I hope I'm wrong but I can't see any other outcome."
Probably the same good that it did Waterford, Clare etc back in the day (which I don't remember but know plenty here do) when they were being bet out the gate by Tipp and Cork?
And they would probably get big beatings from Wexford, Kilkenny and Galway too - but there will be 1 shock every year to justify this madness.
There is no easy answer to extending hurlings reach but deciding that the Munster championship is only for 5 teams, and just dumping everybody else into Leinster, is not the answer.
The sooner we either replace the league with the provincial championship, and then have an open draw style championship, the better.

StoreysTash (Wexford) - Posts: 1732 - 04/03/2020 10:51:23    2272138

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Replying To tiobraid:  "With all due respect to Kerry what are they going to get from being in the Munster cship. They have improved dramatically but they aren't ready yet. I think any Kerry hurling person will agree with that. If they win the Joe Mc cup then they should get their chance for sure.
Laois, Westmeath, carlow, Kerry have all benefited massively from competitive games every week.
The new system will see half of the teams take big beating and the other half dish out big beatings from the teams from the Christy ring. I hope I'm wrong but I can't see any other outcome."
but its OK for the footballers in these counties to get hammered by kerry?

perfect10 (Wexford) - Posts: 3929 - 04/03/2020 15:55:00    2272208

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Replying To StoreysTash:  "Probably the same good that it did Waterford, Clare etc back in the day (which I don't remember but know plenty here do) when they were being bet out the gate by Tipp and Cork?
And they would probably get big beatings from Wexford, Kilkenny and Galway too - but there will be 1 shock every year to justify this madness.
There is no easy answer to extending hurlings reach but deciding that the Munster championship is only for 5 teams, and just dumping everybody else into Leinster, is not the answer.
The sooner we either replace the league with the provincial championship, and then have an open draw style championship, the better."
Yes Clare got several hidings over the years as I well remember but they also could beat any of the top teams on their day. Clare would be more comparable to where Dublin are now. But Kerry have not competed at this level for years and it was they that removed themselves from the Munster championship as so many of you prefer to ignore. If Kerry win the JoeMc and want to be part of Munster then Im all for that.

ZUL10 (Clare) - Posts: 693 - 04/03/2020 17:30:17    2272228

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Replying To StoreysTash:  "Probably the same good that it did Waterford, Clare etc back in the day (which I don't remember but know plenty here do) when they were being bet out the gate by Tipp and Cork?
And they would probably get big beatings from Wexford, Kilkenny and Galway too - but there will be 1 shock every year to justify this madness.
There is no easy answer to extending hurlings reach but deciding that the Munster championship is only for 5 teams, and just dumping everybody else into Leinster, is not the answer.
The sooner we either replace the league with the provincial championship, and then have an open draw style championship, the better."
I think to be fair and I could be wrong but I know Waterford had at least one serious underage team back then so I think its a slightly different scenario. With all due respect to Kerry they would likely not get within 10-12 points of any of the teams so they wouldnt learn as much as they would in the Joe McDonagh cup, but I would be interested to hear a Kerry persons opinion on this.

tiobraid (Tipperary) - Posts: 4119 - 04/03/2020 18:53:22    2272237

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Replying To perfect10:  "but its OK for the footballers in these counties to get hammered by kerry?"
That's completely irrelevant to this thread for a number of reasons.

tiobraid (Tipperary) - Posts: 4119 - 04/03/2020 18:54:35    2272238

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There has been different league structures, competitions , Joe McDonagh cup etc. but little has changed with the power standings in hurling. (Probable true for football also) The standard at grass root levels in the weaker counties has to be brought up or it will stay that way despite what tinkering is done with formats.

Canuck (Waterford) - Posts: 2660 - 04/03/2020 19:36:05    2272244

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Replying To tiobraid:  "I think to be fair and I could be wrong but I know Waterford had at least one serious underage team back then so I think its a slightly different scenario. With all due respect to Kerry they would likely not get within 10-12 points of any of the teams so they wouldnt learn as much as they would in the Joe McDonagh cup, but I would be interested to hear a Kerry persons opinion on this."
But Carlow weren't any more competitive last year in Leinster, would Kerry say be any less competitive? Also why is the point perfect10 made about the Munster football championship irrelevant, I think it is very relevant as you are being accused of double standards?

StoreysTash (Wexford) - Posts: 1732 - 04/03/2020 19:36:42    2272245

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Replying To Canuck:  "There has been different league structures, competitions , Joe McDonagh cup etc. but little has changed with the power standings in hurling. (Probable true for football also) The standard at grass root levels in the weaker counties has to be brought up or it will stay that way despite what tinkering is done with formats."
I agree with it on hurling.

Much less so on football.

I'd see changing the calendar to be important for improving hurling.

I think getting better club competitions for teams from the developing counties is key alongside the juvenile work being done.

The Celtic Challenge is a good initiative but I still think too much emphasis is placed on representative teams and not enough on the club game.

It happens in football too.

Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 4226 - 05/03/2020 00:07:26    2272280

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Replying To StoreysTash:  "But Carlow weren't any more competitive last year in Leinster, would Kerry say be any less competitive? Also why is the point perfect10 made about the Munster football championship irrelevant, I think it is very relevant as you are being accused of double standards?"
How can I be accused of double standards when I never said I agree with the Munster football cship? It's a different sport.

The results would say Kerry would be less competitive in Munster at the present time, yes. The hope is that the Joe Mc cup helps to improve interest and standard

tiobraid (Tipperary) - Posts: 4119 - 05/03/2020 18:35:14    2272394

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Replying To Whammo86:  "I agree with it on hurling.

Much less so on football.

I'd see changing the calendar to be important for improving hurling.

I think getting better club competitions for teams from the developing counties is key alongside the juvenile work being done.

The Celtic Challenge is a good initiative but I still think too much emphasis is placed on representative teams and not enough on the club game.

It happens in football too."
I agree 100% with this and having being saying it for a long time. A hurling task force should be set up to combine club cships in the weaker counties across all levels and age groups. There's only 2/3 clubs in certain counties.
For example, if you combined the Leitrim and Longford club cships (different provinces so maybe better examples) then you'd start to give clubs more games and more competition. For the life of me I can't understand why we arent seeing loads of this but it needs to be driven from Croke Park first and county boards second.

I see nothing wrong with combining 2/3/4 counties for club cships. It seems the logical approach for me.

tiobraid (Tipperary) - Posts: 4119 - 05/03/2020 18:42:51    2272395

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Replying To Marlon_JD:  "You do know Kerry played in the Munster championship until 2004, right? As I recall, they took themselves out of the Munster championship due to consistently heavy defeats they suffered every year, they weren't forced out by other Munster counties. Am I wrong?

And how exactly are the other Munster counties actively blocking Kerrys re-admittance? If everyone else but them wants Kerry back in, how would 5 counties defeat all other 32+ boards in any motion? When it comes to hurling in general, everyone could be doing better.

That said, the current promotion/relegation system is completely wrong. If Kerry win the Joe McDonagh, they should be promoted to the Munster championship directly.
But, if anyone is really concerned about Kerry coming back into Munster hurling, there is good news. After winning 3 All-Ireland B titles on the trot, Kerry are back in the Munster U20 championship this year. Next step, get the minor hurlers back in the Munster championship. Players need to be playing and competing with the top teams at underage, before they can expect to bridge any gaps at Senior level. Alot of people are getting that back to front.

And while I still think that increasing the Leinster championship to 6 teams is premature, at least Carlow, Westmeath, Laois etc have been playing in Leinster underage. Thats why I'm going to keep an open mind on this change, and hope it works out (even if league results so far are not a good sign). I just don't want us to go back to a championship where any team is satisfied with a moral victory."
Spot on

Viking66 (Wexford) - Posts: 11864 - 05/03/2020 22:13:37    2272418

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Replying To tiobraid:  "How can I be accused of double standards when I never said I agree with the Munster football cship? It's a different sport.

The results would say Kerry would be less competitive in Munster at the present time, yes. The hope is that the Joe Mc cup helps to improve interest and standard"
Would they be any less competitive than Waterford are in football, or were for very many years in hurling?
Re weaker counties, there is no point really bothering investing in hurling though is there, Brian Carroll has always said (rightly) that the big counties have pulled the ladder up behind them and don't care beyond their own bubble.
What reward is it for years of work in Carlow or Laois to be just relegated in Leinster, or Kerry not even allowed to compete? Why would they bother?

perfect10 (Wexford) - Posts: 3929 - 06/03/2020 10:53:27    2272459

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Replying To Whammo86:  "I agree with it on hurling.

Much less so on football.

I'd see changing the calendar to be important for improving hurling.

I think getting better club competitions for teams from the developing counties is key alongside the juvenile work being done.

The Celtic Challenge is a good initiative but I still think too much emphasis is placed on representative teams and not enough on the club game.

It happens in football too."
I think the county championships in the weaker counties should be on a knock out basis and then allow all their club teams play in the provincial championship seeded from each other. As we see there is nothing better than that parish pride to bring out the best in players. Easy do in Munster as only Kerry. In the others take a county or two on a rotating basis. Maybe no county team for them during that time. The question would be how to fit. Do away with some of the meaningless competition, provincial inter counties development squads and now the league is being used the same. Munster need to give up on their sacred cow provincial championship that I also loved, in the interest of the sport. Development squads should be the clubs as used to be and a lot cheaper.
Probably all flawed but firm believe that grass roots is the way to improve and not changing formats like underwear.

Canuck (Waterford) - Posts: 2660 - 06/03/2020 14:17:51    2272504

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