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2020 - Time To Pedal My Best Yet ?

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'One-Tier NFL/AIC Structure' 

-  Six ranked NFL divisions (1 to 6) with team quantities of 5,6,5 & 5,6,5, respectively

-  Five-team divs play a round robin; and six-team divs (no round robin) play all teams one div above & below instead (creates a 10-match schedule per team)

-  Top 2 from each div and 4 other 'best record' teams (fixed at 2 from divs 1-3 and 2 from divs 4-6) advance to the 'One-Tier, 16-Team, AIC Playoffs'

-  Playoff teams are seeded (1-16) based on their NFL ranking [e.g. Div 2 Champ is seeded below all (2-4) Div 1 Playoff teams]

-  Top 8 seeds (divs 1-3) play a 'Double Chance Rd' [DC, 1 hosts 8 (1h8), 2h7, 3h6 & 4h5] before 4 winners host 4 AI KO QFs and 4 losers host 4 KO QF Playoff (QFP) pairings]

-  Lowest 8 seeds (divs 4-6;  9h16, 10h15, 11h14 & 12h13) pair up before 4 winners advance to play away in the KO QFP Rd.

-  Teams are reseeded sequentially after each Rd (so most likely, teams would strive to climb to a higher div that provides an easier playoff path, rather than tank toward a lower div that provides an easier regular season schedule and tougher playoff series)

- 2 Up / 2 Down between divs resets the NFL for the following year.

NOTE - Teams are given a match schedule with 'sliding scale' difficulty, based on their division status, as follows:

Div 1 v Divs 1,2;   Div 2 v 1,3;   Div 3 v 2,3; 

Div 4 v Divs 4,5;   Div 5 v 4,6;  &  Div 6 v 5,6.

Finally, award a NFL trophy to each of the six div winners before the AIC Playoffs.

omahant (USA) - Posts: 1753 - 14/01/2020 23:54:15    2259863

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Or, with a few tweaks -
- KO of only 12 instead (6 div champs, 3 divs 1-3 wild cards, 3 divs 4-6 wild cards, 4 highest seeds get byes to QFs).
- 1 Up/1 Down instead ?

omahant (USA) - Posts: 1753 - 15/01/2020 14:00:51    2259989

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Replying To omahant:  "'One-Tier NFL/AIC Structure' 

-  Six ranked NFL divisions (1 to 6) with team quantities of 5,6,5 & 5,6,5, respectively

-  Five-team divs play a round robin; and six-team divs (no round robin) play all teams one div above & below instead (creates a 10-match schedule per team)

-  Top 2 from each div and 4 other 'best record' teams (fixed at 2 from divs 1-3 and 2 from divs 4-6) advance to the 'One-Tier, 16-Team, AIC Playoffs'

-  Playoff teams are seeded (1-16) based on their NFL ranking [e.g. Div 2 Champ is seeded below all (2-4) Div 1 Playoff teams


-  Top 8 seeds (divs 1-3) play a 'Double Chance Rd' [DC, 1 hosts 8 (1h8), 2h7, 3h6 & 4h5] before 4 winners host 4 AI KO QFs and 4 losers host 4 KO QF Playoff (QFP) pairings]

-  Lowest 8 seeds (divs 4-6;  9h16, 10h15, 11h14 & 12h13) pair up before 4 winners advance to play away in the KO QFP Rd.

-  Teams are reseeded sequentially after each Rd (so most likely, teams would strive to climb to a higher div that provides an easier playoff path, rather than tank toward a lower div that provides an easier regular season schedule and tougher playoff series)

- 2 Up / 2 Down between divs resets the NFL for the following year.

NOTE - Teams are given a match schedule with 'sliding scale' difficulty, based on their division status, as follows:

Div 1 v Divs 1,2;   Div 2 v 1,3;   Div 3 v 2,3; 

Div 4 v Divs 4,5;   Div 5 v 4,6;  &  Div 6 v 5,6.

Finally, award a NFL trophy to each of the six div winners before the AIC Playoffs."]Electric bicycles are handy alright on the aul hills. Not too sure about QPR and the rest of it though.

catch22 (USA) - Posts: 1236 - 15/01/2020 14:21:49    2260003

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Replying To omahant:  "Or, with a few tweaks -
- KO of only 12 instead (6 div champs, 3 divs 1-3 wild cards, 3 divs 4-6 wild cards, 4 highest seeds get byes to QFs).
- 1 Up/1 Down instead ?"
So

As an exercise in coming up with a way of getting a 10 game schedule for 32 teams with varying degrees of schedule strength it fits the bill.

I don't see how that would be the priority for a new GAA championship.

It doesn't in any shape or form solve the real world problem of the Football championship.

It'd have zero chance of being implemented.

It wouldn't be desirable if it were implemented.

It's fair competition because of the only design principle that you actually attempted to solve. It's an answer to a question no one asked and shouldn't be asked.

I don't honestly mean to be rude, I think you're ideas that aren't just answers to some theoretical question you only are asking. I really think you should get back to first principles of the problem.


How do you get a more fair football championship. Can or should the Provincial championships play a part and in what way.

Is there a way of providing teams with more games but more meaningful games?

What role should the National league take.

What sort of calendar should these competitions be run to.

How does this affect other competitions like club and the hurling competitions?

Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 2907 - 15/01/2020 17:34:17    2260049

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We need to be realistic here. There are two proposals on the table and we're going to end up with a tweaked version of one. The Examiner reported that both Munster and Connacht are in favour of the proposed 4 equal conferences. Ulster are opposed to it.

Take New York out of Connacht. That leaves us with 6 teams. Same for Munster. Both provinces should adopt a league which gives each team 5 games. Top 2 go into the final. 3rd and 4th placed teams go into the qualifiers. The 5th and 6th placed teams go into Tier 2. Move Louth into Ulster. Leinster and Ulster split their teams intro two groups of 5. The top teams in each group contest the final. 2nd and 3rd placed teams go into the qualifiers. 4th and 5th placed teams go into Tier 2.

The Tier 2 champions from the previous year play the lowest ranked team from Tier 1 in the preliminary round. The loser of this game enters Tier 2. That ensures each competition has 16 teams each.

The proposal for a League based format has not been received well due to the proposed seedings. This one is easy to rectify but I think the provincial format will be adopted.

Hawkeye9212 (Donegal) - Posts: 263 - 15/01/2020 19:08:04    2260063

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To Whammo 86 -
I'll take a stab at your q's - again I want to say, I present structures I like rather than what has a chance of GAA implementation - based on the latter, change is like inertia/an iceberg - that's why it took months for them to present a plain vanilla 16-team KO Tier 2 (how creative !)

How do you get a more fair football championship. Can or should the Provincial championships play a part and in what way.
FAIR is in the eye of the beholder - is it akin to a Labour party economic version of wealth redistribution, or more laissez faire ?
I am obviously going with helping everyone get to the KO stage here - while tiering the NFL into 6 in lieu of the successful 4, everyone plays a 'league' at the own level and can target a trophy. I didn't include the Provs, so play separately or kill them.

Is there a way of providing teams with more games but more meaningful games?
I think I addressed this -10 games as teams play at 'near own' level.

What role should the National league take.
I link league to 16-team (or 12) AIC KO.

What sort of calendar should these competitions be run to.
I didn't address this - but play the 14-15 rds over say 30 weeks/7 months span (March to Sept) - club games on off weeks + Oct/Nov as needed.

How does this affect other competitions like club and the hurling competitions?
See last answer.

omahant (USA) - Posts: 1753 - 15/01/2020 22:00:19    2260095

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Btw - As part of the Calendar Review Committee recommendations - they have a 'flipped season' version, with AIC played on NFL basis in the Summer, leading to a 10-team KO from tiered divs in quantities of 4-4-1-1 [not far removed from my say, 4-2-2-4-2-2 (16 teams) or 4-1-1-4-1-1 (if 12)].

omahant (USA) - Posts: 1753 - 15/01/2020 22:25:14    2260101

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Replying To Hawkeye9212:  "We need to be realistic here. There are two proposals on the table and we're going to end up with a tweaked version of one. The Examiner reported that both Munster and Connacht are in favour of the proposed 4 equal conferences. Ulster are opposed to it.

Take New York out of Connacht. That leaves us with 6 teams. Same for Munster. Both provinces should adopt a league which gives each team 5 games. Top 2 go into the final. 3rd and 4th placed teams go into the qualifiers. The 5th and 6th placed teams go into Tier 2. Move Louth into Ulster. Leinster and Ulster split their teams intro two groups of 5. The top teams in each group contest the final. 2nd and 3rd placed teams go into the qualifiers. 4th and 5th placed teams go into Tier 2.

The Tier 2 champions from the previous year play the lowest ranked team from Tier 1 in the preliminary round. The loser of this game enters Tier 2. That ensures each competition has 16 teams each.

The proposal for a League based format has not been received well due to the proposed seedings. This one is easy to rectify but I think the provincial format will be adopted."
Don't know where the GAA's head is at ! - their 8-team Tier 2 is so unbalanced with lowest Ulster teams in with the likes of Waterford - terrible competition.

omahant (USA) - Posts: 1753 - 15/01/2020 22:48:01    2260106

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For a better version of the GAA's 4-4-1-1, I'd rather have the old NFL 2 divs x 16 (maybe suggested by another poster earlier), with each div having 2 groups of 8 of equal rank. This way, the best 8 teams could theoretically advance to the KO (unlike the GAA's with 5th/6th ranked losing out).

Let me tweak the 2x16 a bit more. I'd target 5-5-3-3, with teams playing 8 matches inter-group within div (4 home/4 away), in lieu of traditional 7-match intra-group round robin.
Inter-group facilitates 8-team A and B sides of the draw, which can be non-repetitive.

omahant (USA) - Posts: 1753 - 15/01/2020 23:10:13    2260111

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The structure needs to be simple and easy to follow for the average fan. The American model can't be replicated in Ireland.

Senior Championship

Pool A

Mayo
Tyrone
Roscommon
Meath

Pool B

Dublin
Donegal
Cavan
Clare

Pool C

Monaghan
Kildare
Fermanagh
Laois

Pool D

Kerry
Galway
Armagh
Westmeath

The top two teams in each group go into the quarter-finals.

Mayo v Donegal
Dublin v Tyrone
Monaghan v Galway
Kerry v Kildare

The bottom 4 teams go into the relegation play-offs. The losers of each final drop down to Tier 2.

Meath v Clare
Laois v Westmeath

Tier 2

Pool A

Cork
Down
Leitrim
Tipperary

Pool B

Louth
Wicklow
Waterford
London

Pool C

Offaly
Longford
Sligo
Wexford

Pool D

Carlow
Derry
Antrim
Limerick

The top teams in each group go into the quarter-finals. The second and third placed teams go into the preliminary quarter-finals. This prevents dead rubber games.

PQF

Down v Waterford
Wicklow v Leitrim
Longford v Antrim
Derry v Sligo

Quarter-Finals

Cork v Sligo
Louth v Longford
Offaly v Down
Carlow v Leitrim

Semi-Finals

Cork v Louth
Offaly v Leitrim

Final

Cork v Offaly

The champions (Cork) go up to Tier 1. The losing semi-finalists (Louth and Leitrim) go into a play-off qualifier. The winner will play the losing finalist (Offaly) to determine which team takes the second promotion spot.

Play-Off Qualifier

Louth v Leitrim

Play-Off Final

Offaly v Louth

Two teams go up and down between the tiers and every game is meaningful.

Hawkeye9212 (Donegal) - Posts: 263 - 17/01/2020 04:32:45    2260374

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Replying To Hawkeye9212:  "The structure needs to be simple and easy to follow for the average fan. The American model can't be replicated in Ireland.

Senior Championship

Pool A

Mayo
Tyrone
Roscommon
Meath

Pool B

Dublin
Donegal
Cavan
Clare

Pool C

Monaghan
Kildare
Fermanagh
Laois

Pool D

Kerry
Galway
Armagh
Westmeath

The top two teams in each group go into the quarter-finals.

Mayo v Donegal
Dublin v Tyrone
Monaghan v Galway
Kerry v Kildare

The bottom 4 teams go into the relegation play-offs. The losers of each final drop down to Tier 2.

Meath v Clare
Laois v Westmeath

Tier 2

Pool A

Cork
Down
Leitrim
Tipperary

Pool B

Louth
Wicklow
Waterford
London

Pool C

Offaly
Longford
Sligo
Wexford

Pool D

Carlow
Derry
Antrim
Limerick

The top teams in each group go into the quarter-finals. The second and third placed teams go into the preliminary quarter-finals. This prevents dead rubber games.

PQF

Down v Waterford
Wicklow v Leitrim
Longford v Antrim
Derry v Sligo

Quarter-Finals

Cork v Sligo
Louth v Longford
Offaly v Down
Carlow v Leitrim

Semi-Finals

Cork v Louth
Offaly v Leitrim

Final

Cork v Offaly

The champions (Cork) go up to Tier 1. The losing semi-finalists (Louth and Leitrim) go into a play-off qualifier. The winner will play the losing finalist (Offaly) to determine which team takes the second promotion spot.

Play-Off Qualifier

Louth v Leitrim

Play-Off Final

Offaly v Louth

Two teams go up and down between the tiers and every game is meaningful."
Something like this would be fantastic in my opinion.

Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 2907 - 17/01/2020 09:57:29    2260393

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Too simple :)

omahant (USA) - Posts: 1753 - 17/01/2020 13:24:57    2260448

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Replying To omahant:  "Too simple :)"
In all honesty simplicity is absolutely the best.

Let the games do the talking not the format

Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 2907 - 17/01/2020 16:43:44    2260486

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Replying To Whammo86:  "In all honesty simplicity is absolutely the best.

Let the games do the talking not the format"
What do you think about this, Whammo?

Limit the intercounty season to 5 months (March to August). January should be designated a rest month. That leaves us with 6 months exclusively for the clubs.

The League should adopt a format similar to the one which will be used UEFA's Nations League this year. Each division has 8 teams split into 4 groups of 4. Double round-robin so each team gets an equal number of home and away games. The top two teams in each group in Division 1 go into the NFL finals. The 1st placed teams in each group in Divisions 2, 3, and 4 are promoted. The 4th placed teams in each group are relegated.

Min no. of games = 6
Max no. of games = 6 (8 for NFL finalists)

The League is then followed by a two tier championship. Each tier has 16 teams split into 4 groups of 4. Each teams get a home game and an away game. The other game is played in a neutral venue.

Min no. of games = 3
Max no. of games = 6

Every county gets 9-12 games in the season.

The Provincials should be scrapped at senior level but retained for club and underage competitions. The provincial councils should focus solely on development of Gaelic games. Let the GAA worry about running senior intercounty competitions.

To give you an example of how it would look.

NFL Division 1

Pool A

Mayo (NFL finals)
Dublin (NFL finals)
Monaghan
Cavan (Relegated)

Pool B

Kerry (NFL finals)
Tyrone (NFL finals)
Roscommon
Galway (Relegated)

NFL Division 2

Pool A

Meath (Promoted to Division 1)
Armagh
Clare
Tipperary (Relegated to Division 3)

Pool B

Donegal (Promoted to Division 1)
Kildare
Fermanagh
Cork (Relegated to Division 3)

All-Ireland Championships

Same format as described in my previous comment.

Hawkeye9212 (Donegal) - Posts: 263 - 17/01/2020 18:00:04    2260504

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Replying To Hawkeye9212:  "What do you think about this, Whammo?

Limit the intercounty season to 5 months (March to August). January should be designated a rest month. That leaves us with 6 months exclusively for the clubs.

The League should adopt a format similar to the one which will be used UEFA's Nations League this year. Each division has 8 teams split into 4 groups of 4. Double round-robin so each team gets an equal number of home and away games. The top two teams in each group in Division 1 go into the NFL finals. The 1st placed teams in each group in Divisions 2, 3, and 4 are promoted. The 4th placed teams in each group are relegated.

Min no. of games = 6
Max no. of games = 6 (8 for NFL finalists)

The League is then followed by a two tier championship. Each tier has 16 teams split into 4 groups of 4. Each teams get a home game and an away game. The other game is played in a neutral venue.

Min no. of games = 3
Max no. of games = 6

Every county gets 9-12 games in the season.

The Provincials should be scrapped at senior level but retained for club and underage competitions. The provincial councils should focus solely on development of Gaelic games. Let the GAA worry about running senior intercounty competitions.

To give you an example of how it would look.

NFL Division 1

Pool A

Mayo (NFL finals)
Dublin (NFL finals)
Monaghan
Cavan (Relegated)

Pool B

Kerry (NFL finals)
Tyrone (NFL finals)
Roscommon
Galway (Relegated)

NFL Division 2

Pool A

Meath (Promoted to Division 1)
Armagh
Clare
Tipperary (Relegated to Division 3)

Pool B

Donegal (Promoted to Division 1)
Kildare
Fermanagh
Cork (Relegated to Division 3)

All-Ireland Championships

Same format as described in my previous comment."
I prefer the current National League but other wise I think you're talking a good quality season for teams.

Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 2907 - 17/01/2020 18:45:11    2260513

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Replying To Whammo86:  "
Replying To Hawkeye9212:  "What do you think about this, Whammo?

Limit the intercounty season to 5 months (March to August). January should be designated a rest month. That leaves us with 6 months exclusively for the clubs.

The League should adopt a format similar to the one which will be used UEFA's Nations League this year. Each division has 8 teams split into 4 groups of 4. Double round-robin so each team gets an equal number of home and away games. The top two teams in each group in Division 1 go into the NFL finals. The 1st placed teams in each group in Divisions 2, 3, and 4 are promoted. The 4th placed teams in each group are relegated.

Min no. of games = 6
Max no. of games = 6 (8 for NFL finalists)

The League is then followed by a two tier championship. Each tier has 16 teams split into 4 groups of 4. Each teams get a home game and an away game. The other game is played in a neutral venue.

Min no. of games = 3
Max no. of games = 6

Every county gets 9-12 games in the season.

The Provincials should be scrapped at senior level but retained for club and underage competitions. The provincial councils should focus solely on development of Gaelic games. Let the GAA worry about running senior intercounty competitions.

To give you an example of how it would look.

NFL Division 1

Pool A

Mayo (NFL finals)
Dublin (NFL finals)
Monaghan
Cavan (Relegated)

Pool B

Kerry (NFL finals)
Tyrone (NFL finals)
Roscommon
Galway (Relegated)

NFL Division 2

Pool A

Meath (Promoted to Division 1)
Armagh
Clare
Tipperary (Relegated to Division 3)

Pool B

Donegal (Promoted to Division 1)
Kildare
Fermanagh
Cork (Relegated to Division 3)

All-Ireland Championships

Same format as described in my previous comment."
I prefer the current National League but other wise I think you're talking a good quality season for teams."
I'd prefer to give each team an equal number of home and away games. The other option is to have one neutral game in the League. The current structure would give each team a minimum of 10 games and a max of 13 or 14. A short and meaningful season.

Hawkeye9212 (Donegal) - Posts: 263 - 17/01/2020 19:28:54    2260518

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And he doesn't want the Ulster Championship scrapped ! :)

omahant (USA) - Posts: 1753 - 17/01/2020 20:21:01    2260525

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Equal home/away quantities is one reason why I like 'inter group' schedule (other being avoidance of repeat pairings in KO- except for Final).

Take your 4x4 groups leading to KO QFs.
Have groups 1A v 1B and 2A v 2B (2 home / 2 away games per team) leading to 8-team KO (4 in A half of draw, 4 in B).

omahant (USA) - Posts: 1753 - 17/01/2020 20:32:27    2260526

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Replying To omahant:  "And he doesn't want the Ulster Championship scrapped ! :)"
Who doesn't want Ulster scrapped?

Hawkeye9212 (Donegal) - Posts: 263 - 17/01/2020 20:36:55    2260528

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I meant Wham - but maybe you should want it retained too - Muns hurling and Uls foot are crown jewels !

Just back to Inter-Group.
I could split my 2x16 Confs into 2 Tiers of 16 (each 2×8).
Tier 1 = 2 equally ranked divs of 8.
Div 1A v 1B (8 games per team).
Top 4 in each to AI KO QFs.
Bottom 2 in each go down.
1A 1st v 4th; 2nd v 3rd; winners meet in AI SF.
Do same for 1B.
1A v 1B champs in Tier 1 AI Final).

Tier 2 = Divs 2A v 2B.
Same format as Tier 1.
SF4 go up.

omahant (USA) - Posts: 1753 - 17/01/2020 22:02:38    2260537

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