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McManus is a class act.

hamsterdean (Limerick) - Posts: 223 - 08/01/2020 12:18:01    2258174

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Replying To TheUsername:  "Many players returned the same scoring though in the finals. I watched them both back over Xmas, if you delve a little bit deeper though i think you would find he would have a lower successful conversation rate to many of the other forwards over the games as well, certainly the Dublin ones on the second day. I was struck over the two games how many wides he he hit and how often he took a shot on.

Before people go start the Dublin Vs Kerry thing, that is very understandable because he is very young and hes a decent talent and to be expected in his second full year. but there are a couple of rough edges to knock of his game, in shot selection, bringing others in to play, being less selfish - all understandable.

Like many id be a paid up member of Sean O Shea fan club, think hes the real gem the south west, always surprises me how revered and how many fans he has outside Kerry and not as much as young David in Kerry, they watch more then most of us mind, so i suppose that fair enough.

Hopefully both go on now and young David fulfills all his potential, its a great and exciting time to be starting out with a fair chance the Dubs could be on the wain."
Good post. I disagree with little of that. Of course they are both brilliant players with huge potential. But, Clifford has that something - call it charisma or whatever - that is very rare 'once in a lifetime' stuff. When he gets the ball a frisson of excitement runs through the crowd; spectators know that something extraordinary may happen. Crowds flock to see him.

I can think of very few similar players: maybe Colm Cooper, Bernard Brogan or Peter Canavan and possibly Con O Callaghan. While O Shea is more in the mould of a Ciaran Kilkenny, perhaps.

Aibrean (Kerry) - Posts: 263 - 08/01/2020 12:56:06    2258178

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Replying To Aibrean:  "Good post. I disagree with little of that. Of course they are both brilliant players with huge potential. But, Clifford has that something - call it charisma or whatever - that is very rare 'once in a lifetime' stuff. When he gets the ball a frisson of excitement runs through the crowd; spectators know that something extraordinary may happen. Crowds flock to see him.

I can think of very few similar players: maybe Colm Cooper, Bernard Brogan or Peter Canavan and possibly Con O Callaghan. While O Shea is more in the mould of a Ciaran Kilkenny, perhaps."
Definitely agree a chara, in a lot of ways the two finals were good for him, he scored well and impacted the game especially the first one, you cant ask for much more at his age. Id love to actually sit down with him and go through the two games from a coaching point of view and go through many phases of play with him as i think there is excellent and rich learning there for him to improve particularly in the area i mentioned in previous posts. Id love to see him get inside his man more in to the real danger zone, use his frame that bit more, while he has excellent skills in tight spaces and use players fears more or rather, as you say use that buzz he left Croke Park adding to his rep on that score after making a mug of Cooper and to an extent Jim Gavin. The lad has huge potential and while he already showing a lot he has miles to go to get close to the lads you mention, he has bags of time though and will have loads of opportunity in my opinion. I think any football fan would like to see him continue to develop and progress.

I think Sean O Shea is something special, Ciarn Kilkenny, is the rock this great Dublin team is built on. I wouldn't bat an eye lid about any Dublin player missing, but would be fearful of not having Kilkenny. Both are maybe more modern players and less obvious then Clifford or i have as conventional roles and the others you mention, but both are in my opinion the most important for Dublin and Kerry heading into the new decade.

This is maybe unfair on the lad but i dont think i have seen a better place kicker of a ball ever the Sean O Shea, the lad is savant and a joy on the eye with a dead ball. I think he is more though, he has that creative eye, that bit of vision, that cleverness in opening up space and he has will and he has drive, he is so young, but still so pivotal in a way i dont think Clifford impact the game yet. he is only going to get better, id be working hard if i was Kerry making him the extra man as id say giving his light enough frame at this level he wont be marked as closely as a few. What really marks him out for me, though i was already a big of fan of him, was the first final this year, he ran the length of the pitch to be the one that dragged down Dean Rock under Cusack when Kerry were on the ropes, that tenacity and in game awareness and desire for one so young in their first final. With his talent those attributes mark out the greatest and i really think he will be the star of the show in Kerry era coming. Clifford will be class to mind.

Both are lucky to be heading in to an era where their best, will miss the Dubs best just gone, but likely be great in their own right.

TheUsername (Dublin) - Posts: 4445 - 08/01/2020 14:12:33    2258193

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Replying To Aibrean:  "Good post. I disagree with little of that. Of course they are both brilliant players with huge potential. But, Clifford has that something - call it charisma or whatever - that is very rare 'once in a lifetime' stuff. When he gets the ball a frisson of excitement runs through the crowd; spectators know that something extraordinary may happen. Crowds flock to see him.

I can think of very few similar players: maybe Colm Cooper, Bernard Brogan or Peter Canavan and possibly Con O Callaghan. While O Shea is more in the mould of a Ciaran Kilkenny, perhaps."
Connolly is/was the Dublin equivalent, not Bernard.

Clifford reminds me more of Maurice Fitz than anyone else. Just such a natural elegant footballer.

O'Shea is a special player but I agree with your overall point - Clifford will be the star man of this Kerry generation.

cavanman47 (Cavan) - Posts: 5012 - 08/01/2020 15:43:13    2258227

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Replying To cavanman47:  "Connolly is/was the Dublin equivalent, not Bernard.

Clifford reminds me more of Maurice Fitz than anyone else. Just such a natural elegant footballer.

O'Shea is a special player but I agree with your overall point - Clifford will be the star man of this Kerry generation."
Id agree with you re Connolly.

One of the most, if not the most, naturally gifted footballers I've ever seen

ConnollyDub (Dublin) - Posts: 2007 - 08/01/2020 16:21:57    2258238

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Replying To Breffni39:  "I've been one of Cillian O'Connor's biggest critics on here for years, but he is definitely warrants discussion for a place on the team of the decade. He's certainly in the top 10 forwards."
Jesus with the way people go on here he'd be lucky to make the Carlow team.

yew_tree (Mayo) - Posts: 11231 - 08/01/2020 18:23:02    2258263

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Replying To yew_tree:  "Jesus with the way people go on here he'd be lucky to make the Carlow team."
Or leitrim

lilypad (Kildare) - Posts: 1363 - 09/01/2020 15:36:11    2258439

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Replying To Aibrean:  "The scoring record of McManus is phenomenal; only B. Brogan (of the Eir team) is ahead of him. Who would you replace him with?

As for Keegan, no one has more All-Star Awards than he has and you want to drop him! Of course he has made mistakes; who has not? Again, who is more deserving?"
Frank McGlynn or Paul Murphy for Keegan. Murphy was Man of the Match on a winning all ireland final team. Dean Rock, Paul Mannion, Paddy McBrearty and arguably Colm McFadden are more deserving than McManus. Players who played only half of the decade should be rated on their performances in those years. Keegan and McManus are being over-rated in this discussion because they played most of the decade but if you look at it another way they failed to achieve their goal for all of those years.

Mailman98 (Galway) - Posts: 319 - 09/01/2020 16:48:28    2258465

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Replying To Mailman98:  "Frank McGlynn or Paul Murphy for Keegan. Murphy was Man of the Match on a winning all ireland final team. Dean Rock, Paul Mannion, Paddy McBrearty and arguably Colm McFadden are more deserving than McManus. Players who played only half of the decade should be rated on their performances in those years. Keegan and McManus are being over-rated in this discussion because they played most of the decade but if you look at it another way they failed to achieve their goal for all of those years."
absolute rubbish

boman11 (Antrim) - Posts: 237 - 09/01/2020 17:03:37    2258471

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Replying To Mailman98:  "Frank McGlynn or Paul Murphy for Keegan. Murphy was Man of the Match on a winning all ireland final team. Dean Rock, Paul Mannion, Paddy McBrearty and arguably Colm McFadden are more deserving than McManus. Players who played only half of the decade should be rated on their performances in those years. Keegan and McManus are being over-rated in this discussion because they played most of the decade but if you look at it another way they failed to achieve their goal for all of those years."
McManus achieved his goal. Twice.
Monaghan were never serious all ireland contenders if we're being honest.

cavanman47 (Cavan) - Posts: 5012 - 09/01/2020 20:07:30    2258522

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Replying To boman11:  "absolute rubbish"
The post of a person finding it difficult to dispute the evidence with meaningful discussion.

Mailman98 (Galway) - Posts: 319 - 10/01/2020 08:47:35    2258597

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Replying To cavanman47:  "McManus achieved his goal. Twice.
Monaghan were never serious all ireland contenders if we're being honest."
At the start of both of those seasons the aim of Donegal and Tyrone was to win the All-Ireland. Having beaten both of those teams to the Ulster title are you seriously telling me that Monaghan and McManus didn't have a goal of winning the All-Ireland? They could have but maybe this is why they didn't; 2 points from play in the Q/F in 2013, not enough from your talisman, Sean Cavanagh outscored him from play in that game. 2 points from play in the Q/F in 2014, Dick Clerkin also got 2 points that day. 2 points from play in the Q/F in 2015, Sean Quigley of Fermanagh got 1-4 from play against Dublin in the Q/F that year. 1 point from play v Longford in Rnd 2 qualifier loss in 2016, he was outscored by 4 players from play that day. 1 point from play v Dublin in the 2017 Q/F. 1 point from play in 2018 semi-final. 2 point from play v Armagh in Rnd 2 qualifier loss in 2019. Of course he scored many frees in all of those games and put up some big scores in league and Ulster championship games as well as a couple of good showing in the compromised rules but just like Cillian O'Connor, who rightly does not make the team, when it came to the crunch McManus didn't step up to the mark.

Mailman98 (Galway) - Posts: 319 - 10/01/2020 11:26:06    2258646

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Replying To Mailman98:  "At the start of both of those seasons the aim of Donegal and Tyrone was to win the All-Ireland. Having beaten both of those teams to the Ulster title are you seriously telling me that Monaghan and McManus didn't have a goal of winning the All-Ireland? They could have but maybe this is why they didn't; 2 points from play in the Q/F in 2013, not enough from your talisman, Sean Cavanagh outscored him from play in that game. 2 points from play in the Q/F in 2014, Dick Clerkin also got 2 points that day. 2 points from play in the Q/F in 2015, Sean Quigley of Fermanagh got 1-4 from play against Dublin in the Q/F that year. 1 point from play v Longford in Rnd 2 qualifier loss in 2016, he was outscored by 4 players from play that day. 1 point from play v Dublin in the 2017 Q/F. 1 point from play in 2018 semi-final. 2 point from play v Armagh in Rnd 2 qualifier loss in 2019. Of course he scored many frees in all of those games and put up some big scores in league and Ulster championship games as well as a couple of good showing in the compromised rules but just like Cillian O'Connor, who rightly does not make the team, when it came to the crunch McManus didn't step up to the mark."
1. There's a VERY well publicised reason why Sean Cavanahh outscored him from play that day!

2. He was double marked in just about every one of those games.


I'm a fan of O'Connor and he does get a rough time from the critics. But if any manager in the country had the choice of the 2 for their team, I'd bet good money that the majority would pick McManus.

cavanman47 (Cavan) - Posts: 5012 - 10/01/2020 11:54:08    2258658

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Replying To Mailman98:  "The post of a person finding it difficult to dispute the evidence with meaningful discussion."
what evidence?

finding it hard to argue against you when you say Paddy Mcbrearty is more deserving on a place in the team than Conor McManus. Paddy is a fine footballer no doubt and a world beater on his day, unfortunately though I would struggle to see any real arguments to have McBrearty over McManus. Different levels

boman11 (Antrim) - Posts: 237 - 10/01/2020 14:12:32    2258724

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Replying To cavanman47:  "1. There's a VERY well publicised reason why Sean Cavanahh outscored him from play that day!

2. He was double marked in just about every one of those games.


I'm a fan of O'Connor and he does get a rough time from the critics. But if any manager in the country had the choice of the 2 for their team, I'd bet good money that the majority would pick McManus."
Yes and so would I but that's not the discussion, so though he is much a beter player than O'Connor McManus is not in the top 6 forwards of the decade when you consider approx 35 forwards won all-irelands in the decade.

Mailman98 (Galway) - Posts: 319 - 10/01/2020 15:35:58    2258752

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Replying To boman11:  "what evidence?

finding it hard to argue against you when you say Paddy Mcbrearty is more deserving on a place in the team than Conor McManus. Paddy is a fine footballer no doubt and a world beater on his day, unfortunately though I would struggle to see any real arguments to have McBrearty over McManus. Different levels"
What evidence you ask; Evidence of a big display in Croke Park Vs a top class team in a big championship match. Unfortunately there is no such evidence. 2 points from play is his best return in a match where Monaghan were knocked out of the championship in the decade. If that's the criteria to be one of the top 6 forwards in the country in the past 10 years then Gaelic Football is in an even worse place than I thought.

Mailman98 (Galway) - Posts: 319 - 10/01/2020 15:43:49    2258756

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Replying To Mailman98:  "Yes and so would I but that's not the discussion, so though he is much a beter player than O'Connor McManus is not in the top 6 forwards of the decade when you consider approx 35 forwards won all-irelands in the decade."
would you consider all of these forwards that have won all Irelands to be better than McManus? im just curious as im failing to understand this logic

boman11 (Antrim) - Posts: 237 - 10/01/2020 15:44:09    2258757

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Replying To Mailman98:  "What evidence you ask; Evidence of a big display in Croke Park Vs a top class team in a big championship match. Unfortunately there is no such evidence. 2 points from play is his best return in a match where Monaghan were knocked out of the championship in the decade. If that's the criteria to be one of the top 6 forwards in the country in the past 10 years then Gaelic Football is in an even worse place than I thought."
Its honestly not worth putting out an arguement as to why McManus should be in there, where woild i even begin? McManus is the best inside forward i have ever seen, maybe not everyone would agree with that bit im sure nearly everyone that knows a thing or two has McManus in there, one the first names on the team.

Through the era of blanket defences and not to mention he is double marked in almost every game he plays, he has been the standout inside forward of this decade and has that touch of sheer class that is very rare in our game.

Save it, you need to acctually watch a bit of football to make these decisions. All ireland medals definitely do not bump a few good forawards ahead of Conor McManus

boman11 (Antrim) - Posts: 237 - 10/01/2020 16:13:34    2258763

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Replying To boman11:  "would you consider all of these forwards that have won all Irelands to be better than McManus? im just curious as im failing to understand this logic"
There is no logic

Gator (Monaghan) - Posts: 238 - 10/01/2020 17:20:02    2258776

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Replying To Mailman98:  "At the start of both of those seasons the aim of Donegal and Tyrone was to win the All-Ireland. Having beaten both of those teams to the Ulster title are you seriously telling me that Monaghan and McManus didn't have a goal of winning the All-Ireland? They could have but maybe this is why they didn't; 2 points from play in the Q/F in 2013, not enough from your talisman, Sean Cavanagh outscored him from play in that game. 2 points from play in the Q/F in 2014, Dick Clerkin also got 2 points that day. 2 points from play in the Q/F in 2015, Sean Quigley of Fermanagh got 1-4 from play against Dublin in the Q/F that year. 1 point from play v Longford in Rnd 2 qualifier loss in 2016, he was outscored by 4 players from play that day. 1 point from play v Dublin in the 2017 Q/F. 1 point from play in 2018 semi-final. 2 point from play v Armagh in Rnd 2 qualifier loss in 2019. Of course he scored many frees in all of those games and put up some big scores in league and Ulster championship games as well as a couple of good showing in the compromised rules but just like Cillian O'Connor, who rightly does not make the team, when it came to the crunch McManus didn't step up to the mark."
You have never seen him play is the conclusion I make from this...or you're clueless.

3 all stars. The rest of Monaghan have about 8 or 9 between them.

You are very concerned about his big match ability. You talk about QF but ignored the Super 8 games. He scored 1-4 from play against Kerry....the first game in years where he wasn't double marked. (1-9 in total).

He wins ball over the field, creates chances for the teams and had led them by example almost in every game.

He hasnt won sam....but its near impossible for a small county like Monaghan to do that in the modern game.

Gator (Monaghan) - Posts: 238 - 10/01/2020 17:30:43    2258777

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