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Nations League / Euro Qualifiers A Model For AIC ?

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Replying To Farnyarmy:  "I just don't understand why county isn't run like club. 3 grades of 10, 10 and 12 with two groups of 5 or 6. More competitive matches for lower grades, more high profile clashes at senior for the TV gurus. Top two into a semi, max of 7 games, relegation for the bottom teams in each group in respective grade. win your grade you move up. Run provincial competitions separately and league at the start of the year. scrap the likes of the FBD. Simple?"
2 tiers are enough.

You'd have the excitement of promotion and relegation battles added to the competition allowing for teams to play more meaningful games.

A team is still only 1 good season away from competing at the top table.

You'd worry about the impact on a lower tier team having a prolonged period of time in a 3rd tier and being a minimum of 2 seasons from being in the top competition.

Outside of Dublin and Kerry at the top and the likes of London and Waterford at the bottom the game is quite competitive. A 3rd tier is a bad idea.

I also think hurling has too many tiers now at this stage.

Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 4211 - 27/11/2019 18:05:58    2251847

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Replying To KillingFields:  "You are assuming they would be less regarded. Teams are training so much and just like any sport there would be some rotation in stronger sides squads they still wouldnt be less thought of than before.
I dont see moving them to start of season bringing new life as they're just seen as pre season warm up."
They'd be at a good time of year.

It'd be the first real competitive action of the season, a chance for fans to see their team.

It wouldn't have the negative comparison to the league. Where you go from a game between Dublin and Kerry to Dublin v Carlow and few crucial games until the latter stages.

In this system you have Provincials and run straight into the good stuff.

I also just think the season has to be compartmentalised set County windows and set club windows with a little flexibility around the edges.

You can't do that from the start of the year or the intercounty competitions would be finished too early.

Put the club Provincials and All Ireland's into the New Year facilitates that. The fixtures backlog always occurs at the end of the club season and that will be relieved. The confluence point where all the club championship need to finish around the same time is the worst thing for the fixtures.

Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 4211 - 27/11/2019 18:43:39    2251851

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Replying To Whammo86:  "They'd be at a good time of year.

It'd be the first real competitive action of the season, a chance for fans to see their team.

It wouldn't have the negative comparison to the league. Where you go from a game between Dublin and Kerry to Dublin v Carlow and few crucial games until the latter stages.

In this system you have Provincials and run straight into the good stuff.

I also just think the season has to be compartmentalised set County windows and set club windows with a little flexibility around the edges.

You can't do that from the start of the year or the intercounty competitions would be finished too early.

Put the club Provincials and All Ireland's into the New Year facilitates that. The fixtures backlog always occurs at the end of the club season and that will be relieved. The confluence point where all the club championship need to finish around the same time is the worst thing for the fixtures."
They would be thought of the same as fbd leagues etc are thought of now. An afterthought.
Your exact words are you go from provincial competitions to "the good stuff".
Play them later in the year. But dont stagger so many games across different weekends like happens now.
There should be a proper off season for all levels in the winter which cant happen with current set up or your proposal.

KillingFields (Limerick) - Posts: 3504 - 27/11/2019 21:08:25    2251870

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Replying To KillingFields:  "They would be thought of the same as fbd leagues etc are thought of now. An afterthought.
Your exact words are you go from provincial competitions to "the good stuff".
Play them later in the year. But dont stagger so many games across different weekends like happens now.
There should be a proper off season for all levels in the winter which cant happen with current set up or your proposal."
They'd be in April and May.

Unqualified teams would still be able to get to the AI tier 1.

They'd be used to seed the All Ireland.

They'd be nothing like the fbd leagues which are played in January and have zero bearing on the All Ireland.

The champions would be their Provincial champions still, which is all your conception of the competitions have going for them.

It's practically strictly better than your proposition.

Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 4211 - 27/11/2019 22:11:24    2251876

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Replying To Whammo86:  "They'd be in April and May.

Unqualified teams would still be able to get to the AI tier 1.

They'd be used to seed the All Ireland.

They'd be nothing like the fbd leagues which are played in January and have zero bearing on the All Ireland.

The champions would be their Provincial champions still, which is all your conception of the competitions have going for them.

It's practically strictly better than your proposition."
They shouldn't have to be used to seed the all Ireland. Use finishing positions in previous years all Ireland so seed the following years comp.
Every competition shouldn't have to be played to completion before next happens. The best sides will have squads to play multiple tournaments. Others will have to prioritise if they do progress further than they thought they would. Just like every other sport in the world.
My conception of the provincial cups as stand alone would allow them be a back door into all Ireland if team hasn't qualified by other means which would be great carrot to keep the competitions as important in players, fans eyes.
Pre season games dont need to be in a cup or league. Teams should just play friendlies and that's it not have their pre season games determined by success in a cup

KillingFields (Limerick) - Posts: 3504 - 27/11/2019 23:13:04    2251883

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Replying To Whammo86:  "There's a lot of variables.

It's tricky, you want to provide teams with good games but not have them all be low impact games.

NBA has a lot of low impact games with the number of regular season games and high number of regular season qualifiers.

For GAA there's been a tradition of high impact knockout championship competitions. It's less suitable now though given the training demands on players they deserve a better season.

You also have the protected nature of the Provincials.

The best I can come up with is

Feb and March Club provincials and All Ireland. Take them out of the depths of winter.

Development/Pre Season inter county competitions played with players not involved with their clubs.

April/May

Inter county Provincial Championships.

Club competitions can start also, if a team is knocked out early or has a gap between rounds, county boards have the option to allow county players to play with their clubs.

June/July

Tight schedule of inter county All Ireland group action.

2 groups of 8 in football in each tier.

Club competitions will be without county players

August

Intercounty knockout rounds.

Club football can recommence with county players for counties eliminated from All Ireland.

September and October finish up club activity.

Break"
That's a decent season. Given the pressure on clubs schedule, I wonder for inter-county if 'less is better' - to your other point, to increase 'game impact', you could make that June/July window less tight by having slightly smaller groups - T1 with 3x6 and T2 with a regional N7 and S7 - I prefer odd div quantities as they allow for an equal home/away and a rotating bye in the schedule.

omahant (USA) - Posts: 2578 - 28/11/2019 03:32:17    2251894

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Replying To KillingFields:  "They shouldn't have to be used to seed the all Ireland. Use finishing positions in previous years all Ireland so seed the following years comp.
Every competition shouldn't have to be played to completion before next happens. The best sides will have squads to play multiple tournaments. Others will have to prioritise if they do progress further than they thought they would. Just like every other sport in the world.
My conception of the provincial cups as stand alone would allow them be a back door into all Ireland if team hasn't qualified by other means which would be great carrot to keep the competitions as important in players, fans eyes.
Pre season games dont need to be in a cup or league. Teams should just play friendlies and that's it not have their pre season games determined by success in a cup"
The Provincials are not preseason competitions.

They are just the first competitions.

February and March, whilst club competitions are played will be also an inter county pre season window.

The qualifiers for the All Ireland will be predominantly determined by the previous season's competition but Provincial champions will be accommodated into the competition.

The closest real world test of whether teams would prioritise league and Provincial championships played both in season was in hurling where the Ulster championship is now no longer played because teams focused and wanted to focus on their All Ireland competition. I don't see why the same wouldn't happen in football.

I've tried to come up with ways of allowing Provincial champions a way back into the competition before. It's pretty tricky for scheduling. A tier 2 team winning their province and qualifying for the tier 2 playoffs would have to be accommodated.

You're talking potentially 7 rounds of action there in that situation (tier 1 4 rounds, tier 2 3 rounds). It gets messy very quickly. It starts to defeat the purpose of having the league plus playoffs style of competition, where much of the win is to teams seasons ending more closely together.

Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 4211 - 28/11/2019 05:41:26    2251895

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Replying To Whammo86:  "The Provincials are not preseason competitions.

They are just the first competitions.

February and March, whilst club competitions are played will be also an inter county pre season window.

The qualifiers for the All Ireland will be predominantly determined by the previous season's competition but Provincial champions will be accommodated into the competition.

The closest real world test of whether teams would prioritise league and Provincial championships played both in season was in hurling where the Ulster championship is now no longer played because teams focused and wanted to focus on their All Ireland competition. I don't see why the same wouldn't happen in football.

I've tried to come up with ways of allowing Provincial champions a way back into the competition before. It's pretty tricky for scheduling. A tier 2 team winning their province and qualifying for the tier 2 playoffs would have to be accommodated.

You're talking potentially 7 rounds of action there in that situation (tier 1 4 rounds, tier 2 3 rounds). It gets messy very quickly. It starts to defeat the purpose of having the league plus playoffs style of competition, where much of the win is to teams seasons ending more closely together."
If played that early in your set up they will be treated as such. Gaa are obsessed with finishing one competition before the next starts. Look at rugby, soccer far better when you switch between competitions.
I'm on way to work. Will respond in full later

KillingFields (Limerick) - Posts: 3504 - 28/11/2019 10:21:59    2251916

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Replying To KillingFields:  "If played that early in your set up they will be treated as such. Gaa are obsessed with finishing one competition before the next starts. Look at rugby, soccer far better when you switch between competitions.
I'm on way to work. Will respond in full later"
They're played in April and May. Barely earlier than currently.

It'd be similar enough to say the Kerry club championship being played in April currently.

I've thought about how to use something along the lines of Tipperary's club championship in the football All Ireland, where there can be preliminary quarterfinals for provincial champions to have an avenue back in.

It's difficult to accommodate that and have a 2nd tier competition and then fit in club competitions.

Club competitions need a lot of free weekends.

12 say for county club championships and up to another 11 for provincial and All Ireland club competitions. 23 weekends gone.

You get down to having say 16 intercounty weekends to work with so as to not have an ungainly season length.

Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 4211 - 28/11/2019 11:29:11    2251925

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I'd love to see Eire Og (Carlow) type success stories in inter-county as well.

omahant (USA) - Posts: 2578 - 28/11/2019 14:36:53    2251960

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Best format for a tiered competition is a league. Two divisions of 16. Top 4 or 6 in Div 1 qualify for the All-Ireland knockout series. Bottom 3 teams are relegated to Div 2. The top 2 teams are promoted to Div 1 and the next 4 teams enter the play-offs for the third spot.

Hawkeye9212 (Donegal) - Posts: 266 - 01/12/2019 00:44:22    2252415

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Replying To Hawkeye9212:  "Best format for a tiered competition is a league. Two divisions of 16. Top 4 or 6 in Div 1 qualify for the All-Ireland knockout series. Bottom 3 teams are relegated to Div 2. The top 2 teams are promoted to Div 1 and the next 4 teams enter the play-offs for the third spot."
League with 16 teams is too many games. 3 divisions of 10/10/12 would be better. Should be separate all Ireland cups and provincial cups with no replays in each.

KillingFields (Limerick) - Posts: 3504 - 01/12/2019 18:26:00    2252519

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Replying To KillingFields:  "League with 16 teams is too many games. 3 divisions of 10/10/12 would be better. Should be separate all Ireland cups and provincial cups with no replays in each."
That's 18 rounds of matches that need to be scheduled (it's actually even 20 for division 3 teams) not counting the All Ireland playoffs.

How do club games get scheduled?

The 2 divisions of 16 each playing a single round robin is actually way easier to schedule club games around.

Knockout based competitions aren't really very suitable for allowing for more games for all and better scheduling of fixtures for club games.

I know I accommodate the Provincial championships but that's because I think realistically they're going nowhere.

I give them their own window because some club activity can be played around them.

If they're played in parallel with a league based championship, it's too hectic a schedule. Counties won't want to have club matches in the middle of all that inter county action.

Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 4211 - 03/12/2019 01:05:15    2252845

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This is why I had a 12-match schedule with two 16-team Confs - although, this went down like a lead balloon ! :)

With 12-10-10, I'd propose a 2-tier structure -
Conf A & Conf B with 6-5-5 (high X, mid Y, low Z seeds, respectively).
Teams play an Inter-Conf schedule (v most teams).

High X seeds play XY seeds (11 matches)
Mid Y seeds play XZ seeds (11 matches)
Low Z seeds play YZ seeds (10 matches).

Tier 1 - top 6 of 11 XY to Conf KO (no repeat, 2 QFs)
Tier 2 - top 3 Z seeds & last/5th Y seed to Conf SFs.

KO 6 in XY per Conf are X seeds the next year;
while Tier 2 Conf Champs are Y seeds; and Other 4 non-KO XY per Conf complete the mid Y seeds.

To freshen the Confs, have 3rd & 4th placed teams in each X,Y,Z in each Conf cross over to Other Conf.

omahant (USA) - Posts: 2578 - 03/12/2019 01:15:59    2252846

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Replying To Whammo86:  "That's 18 rounds of matches that need to be scheduled (it's actually even 20 for division 3 teams) not counting the All Ireland playoffs.

How do club games get scheduled?

The 2 divisions of 16 each playing a single round robin is actually way easier to schedule club games around.

Knockout based competitions aren't really very suitable for allowing for more games for all and better scheduling of fixtures for club games.

I know I accommodate the Provincial championships but that's because I think realistically they're going nowhere.

I give them their own window because some club activity can be played around them.

If they're played in parallel with a league based championship, it's too hectic a schedule. Counties won't want to have club matches in the middle of all that inter county action."
It's not you could do split divisions if you have top flight of 12 where after 11 rounds top 6 and bottom 6 play each other for second round of games and each team gets 16 games.
A division of16 is too many and has too many meaningless games while 3 divisions doesnt have as many rubbers.
Up to club players to demand more club action during inter county season. Better for everyone and allows better chance for everyone to have a proper closed season

KillingFields (Limerick) - Posts: 3504 - 03/12/2019 11:00:18    2252895

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Replying To KillingFields:  "It's not you could do split divisions if you have top flight of 12 where after 11 rounds top 6 and bottom 6 play each other for second round of games and each team gets 16 games.
A division of16 is too many and has too many meaningless games while 3 divisions doesnt have as many rubbers.
Up to club players to demand more club action during inter county season. Better for everyone and allows better chance for everyone to have a proper closed season"
The 18 rounds of matches I referred to were:

9 League Championship competition
4 Provincial cup
5 All Ireland cup

It's more if you include playoffs for the League Championship competition.

Something that could work in a 3 tier system:

Division 1: 12 Teams
Division 2: 10 Teams
Division 3: 10 Teams

Each division single round robin

Play in parallel the provincial championships

Top 4 from division 1 of the league plus Provincial champions qualify for the All Ireland series.

Division 2 and 3 can have playoff rounds during rounds 10 and 11 of the division 1 competition.

That competition will necessitate 18 rounds maximum: 11 league, max 4 provincial, max 3 All Ireland

I still think that club competitions should be played in February and March.

April to September is 26 weeks: 18 inter county rounds plus 3 club rounds in each code could be facilitated.

Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 4211 - 03/12/2019 12:12:41    2252910

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The counties will never go for three tiers. 16 is too much but you could split them into the two pools of 8. The first placed teams in each pool of Division 2 are automatically promoted to Division 1. The second placed teams play eachother for a third promotion spot. Assuming the provincials are kept, the four provincial champions join the top two teams in each pool of Division 1 in the All-Ireland series. Any provincial champion who also qualifies through the League will have their granted to another team in the League.

Hawkeye9212 (Donegal) - Posts: 266 - 03/12/2019 13:40:55    2252932

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Replying To Hawkeye9212:  "The counties will never go for three tiers. 16 is too much but you could split them into the two pools of 8. The first placed teams in each pool of Division 2 are automatically promoted to Division 1. The second placed teams play eachother for a third promotion spot. Assuming the provincials are kept, the four provincial champions join the top two teams in each pool of Division 1 in the All-Ireland series. Any provincial champion who also qualifies through the League will have their granted to another team in the League."
This would work very well actually.

Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 4211 - 03/12/2019 21:17:01    2253036

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Replying To Hawkeye9212:  "The counties will never go for three tiers. 16 is too much but you could split them into the two pools of 8. The first placed teams in each pool of Division 2 are automatically promoted to Division 1. The second placed teams play eachother for a third promotion spot. Assuming the provincials are kept, the four provincial champions join the top two teams in each pool of Division 1 in the All-Ireland series. Any provincial champion who also qualifies through the League will have their granted to another team in the League."
Great idea Hawkeye

Judgejules1 (Galway) - Posts: 9 - 03/12/2019 22:26:28    2253066

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Replying To Hawkeye9212:  "The counties will never go for three tiers. 16 is too much but you could split them into the two pools of 8. The first placed teams in each pool of Division 2 are automatically promoted to Division 1. The second placed teams play eachother for a third promotion spot. Assuming the provincials are kept, the four provincial champions join the top two teams in each pool of Division 1 in the All-Ireland series. Any provincial champion who also qualifies through the League will have their granted to another team in the League."
That is pretty good - although I would like more teams to have something to play for (less dead rubbers) - After keeping your 2 divs of 2x8, I would amend the KO stage as follows -

Tier 1 KO of 10 - 4 Prov Champs plus top 3 in the 2 Div 1 groups to KO (teams qualifying once, or with lowest pts, to 1st rd).

Tier 2 KO of 4 - top 2 in 2 Div 2 groups to SFs (all 4 go up).

Playoffs KO of 8 - 3 wild cards in Div 2 (3 best records below top 2s) join lowest 5 in Div 1 - 3 KO rds - Champ goes up or stays up, with 5 or 4 down, respectively.

omahant (USA) - Posts: 2578 - 04/12/2019 02:59:01    2253092

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