National Forum

Irish Rugby Must Look To GAA's Top Talent For A Brighter Future

(Oldest Posts First) - Go To The Latest Post


Replying To Cavan_Shambles:  "I do believe there is a double standard in the media when it comes to rugby coverage. Undoubtedly. For example, Martin Ó Neill was given ferocious criticism for his style with the soccer team, yet Joe Schmidt, is lauded and given a pat on the back.

It's the double standard that grates with most Irish people and that will ensure that we never become rugby country, despite what the D4 media want to believe."
In fairness, apart from the last few weeks, Schmidt's time over the rugby team has been almost wholly positive and successful. Won three Six Nations championships, a Grand Slam, and beat the All Blacks twice. Why would there be consistent negative analysis during that time?

And in the past week or two, with things not going so well, I've seen and read plenty of pieces about how he maybe got it wrong this time, how tactics should have evolved, questioning certain personnel decisions, etc.

On the other hand, the soccer team under O'Neill generally just bumbled their way along, with the occasional exceptional performance (e.g. beating Germany and Italy) putting a huge gloss on the many bad ones in between. Lacked leadership, lacked pattern, and lacked the ability to control a game - all things that Schmidt had with the rugby team during the same time.

I really don't think your comparison stands up here.

Pikeman96 (Wexford) - Posts: 405 - 25/10/2019 12:21:32    2245686

Link

Replying To Pikeman96:  "In fairness, apart from the last few weeks, Schmidt's time over the rugby team has been almost wholly positive and successful. Won three Six Nations championships, a Grand Slam, and beat the All Blacks twice. Why would there be consistent negative analysis during that time?

And in the past week or two, with things not going so well, I've seen and read plenty of pieces about how he maybe got it wrong this time, how tactics should have evolved, questioning certain personnel decisions, etc.

On the other hand, the soccer team under O'Neill generally just bumbled their way along, with the occasional exceptional performance (e.g. beating Germany and Italy) putting a huge gloss on the many bad ones in between. Lacked leadership, lacked pattern, and lacked the ability to control a game - all things that Schmidt had with the rugby team during the same time.

I really don't think your comparison stands up here."
International Soccer is fiercely competitive. International rugby is not. There are 20 or 30 teams in World football who could win a major competition. There are 5 or 6 in World rugby. Martin O Neill had a big job to do.

galwayford (Galway) - Posts: 1892 - 25/10/2019 12:38:00    2245691

Link

Replying To Pikeman96:  "In fairness, apart from the last few weeks, Schmidt's time over the rugby team has been almost wholly positive and successful. Won three Six Nations championships, a Grand Slam, and beat the All Blacks twice. Why would there be consistent negative analysis during that time?

And in the past week or two, with things not going so well, I've seen and read plenty of pieces about how he maybe got it wrong this time, how tactics should have evolved, questioning certain personnel decisions, etc.

On the other hand, the soccer team under O'Neill generally just bumbled their way along, with the occasional exceptional performance (e.g. beating Germany and Italy) putting a huge gloss on the many bad ones in between. Lacked leadership, lacked pattern, and lacked the ability to control a game - all things that Schmidt had with the rugby team during the same time.

I really don't think your comparison stands up here."
The comparison absolutely stands.

This years six nations. Dreadful.

A record defeat to England in August. (if you're going to attach any credibility to beating NZ in two glorified friendly matches, then this game against England can't be dismissed).

The world cup in 2015, granted we had injuries, was again poor. Despite the injuries, we should have had more than enough to beat Argentina, a nation not renowned for rugby.

A total failure to change the style of play when it was clear teams had us figured out after the highs of 2018.

Relying on an old guard who were past it.

Statistically, he is ireland's best ever coach, but again, it's about achieving new ambitions and he didn't do that, he didn't make it past a WC quarter final despite two attempts.

There shouldn't be "consistent negative analysis" as you put it, but neither should there be the back slapping and the "thanks for the memories". You don't get to hype the team up for years, as the media did, and then say "OK, time to move on" when that team chokes again on the big stage.
A recognition from the rugby media that they have consistently got things wrong around this team, would be a good place to start.

Cavan_Shambles (Cavan) - Posts: 370 - 25/10/2019 12:39:38    2245692

Link

I sense some people with chips on shoulders about rugby. People who seem to have overlooked and/or ignored the criticism that Schmidt and the rugby team got when appropriate at those times mentioned.

By the way, if you want to imply that in soccer, it wouldn't be the same case of "so long, and thanks for the memories" to somebody whose time in charge generally brought you good times but ended up with some disappointing results, then you must be too young to remember Jack Charlton.

Pikeman96 (Wexford) - Posts: 405 - 25/10/2019 13:15:04    2245696

Link

Replying To Meathmaverick:  "i'm a man who appreciates nearly all sports killingfields and rugby is definitely one i enjoy. i even occasionally go to a local junior rugby match in navan, however it is unquestionable that the game has become more about size and power in recent years that is evident in all levels. Ofcourse there are exceptions like De Klerk and Kolbe for South Africa and Aaron Smith for the All Blacks. Even at that the South African team is an example of a group of freakishly big men.
Rugby players as a whole are on average 2 stone heavier than 20 years ago.
There are no doubt great skills involved but a lot of teams have adopted the attritional battering ram style of rugby and as such are going for bigger heavier men.
The physicality and pace of the game has gone up , bigger,harder faster hits will definitely result in more head injuries unfortunately. (Although World Rugby are admirably one governing body that are proactive in trying to prevent this)"
And I would imagine gaa players are bigger and most certainly stronger than 20 years ago as well.

KillingFields (Limerick) - Posts: 1336 - 25/10/2019 13:17:53    2245700

Link

Replying To Cavan_Shambles:  "The comparison absolutely stands.

This years six nations. Dreadful.

A record defeat to England in August. (if you're going to attach any credibility to beating NZ in two glorified friendly matches, then this game against England can't be dismissed).

The world cup in 2015, granted we had injuries, was again poor. Despite the injuries, we should have had more than enough to beat Argentina, a nation not renowned for rugby.

A total failure to change the style of play when it was clear teams had us figured out after the highs of 2018.

Relying on an old guard who were past it.

Statistically, he is ireland's best ever coach, but again, it's about achieving new ambitions and he didn't do that, he didn't make it past a WC quarter final despite two attempts.

There shouldn't be "consistent negative analysis" as you put it, but neither should there be the back slapping and the "thanks for the memories". You don't get to hype the team up for years, as the media did, and then say "OK, time to move on" when that team chokes again on the big stage.
A recognition from the rugby media that they have consistently got things wrong around this team, would be a good place to start."
I think the real reason you don't get the same level of criticism of rugby players as you do with the soccer team and GAA teams is that there isn't the same passionate fans at rugby-it seems more like a rugby game is just another part of day/night out and win or lose it won't ruin the ocassion or the party. You never see or hear irate rugby fans getting on a teams back or booing what's being played out in front of them-they will still drink their Heine and wave at the TV camera.

updwell (Limerick) - Posts: 401 - 25/10/2019 13:18:44    2245701

Link

Replying To updwell:  "It seems that rugby supporters like their players can't be questioned or criticised about the game. This contrasts with the soccer team who got called out for their performance and individuals were criticised and publicly condemned for not being good enough-in contrast I don't think any one player on the rugby team was called out. The same with GAA players inthe championship they are questioned whether they are up to standard or not but the posh rugby boys get away with it-maybe that's why their that little bit soft when it comes to the really big games and invariably fold."
Rugby supporters can take criticism but when rugby supporters are vastly outnumbered here then of course debate will be poor. Rugby players have been criticised significantly in media since the team were knocked out.

KillingFields (Limerick) - Posts: 1336 - 25/10/2019 13:20:10    2245702

Link

Replying To Pikeman96:  "I sense some people with chips on shoulders about rugby. People who seem to have overlooked and/or ignored the criticism that Schmidt and the rugby team got when appropriate at those times mentioned.

By the way, if you want to imply that in soccer, it wouldn't be the same case of "so long, and thanks for the memories" to somebody whose time in charge generally brought you good times but ended up with some disappointing results, then you must be too young to remember Jack Charlton."
Pikeman of Wexford. Right now the Wex hurling team is doing ok. Goodish manager, good image, plenty of sponsorship deals. But be careful. Look at Galway, in 2017, top of the tree, Number one team, future looking great. Fast forward 2019, a few bad results and now at end of 2019, a bleak enough outlook. The GAA has become number 3 now after Rugby and Soccer. And must battle very hard for the sponsorship and publicity money. Loch Garman abú

galwayford (Galway) - Posts: 1892 - 25/10/2019 13:22:05    2245705

Link

Replying To Pikeman96:  "I sense some people with chips on shoulders about rugby. People who seem to have overlooked and/or ignored the criticism that Schmidt and the rugby team got when appropriate at those times mentioned.

By the way, if you want to imply that in soccer, it wouldn't be the same case of "so long, and thanks for the memories" to somebody whose time in charge generally brought you good times but ended up with some disappointing results, then you must be too young to remember Jack Charlton."
Too many people have blinkered vision when it comes to rugby coverage.

The Jack Charlton comparison is not an analogous situation at all. Not even closely equivalent. Jack Charlton brought a small country to the last eight of the world Cup, a tournament with bountiful competition and numerous competitive teams. Joe Schmidt finished 8th, on two occasions, in a tournament only four or five countries are capable of winning.

Nobody has a chip on their shoulder about rugby, many people wisely don't buy the expertly marketed hype. Sadly, many do, which is why you have images coming back from Japan of Irish rugby supporters actively cheering when their own team is getting pummelled. And yet I thought rugby was all about passion?

Cavan_Shambles (Cavan) - Posts: 370 - 25/10/2019 13:30:24    2245709

Link

Replying To KillingFields:  "And I would imagine gaa players are bigger and most certainly stronger than 20 years ago as well."
Absoloutely i'd imagine they are but i think the skill levels of Gaa players havent suffered as a result.

the point i was making was in respone to your reply to Avonoli where you said it was an innacurate accusation that Rugby is a game much more about power strenght and conditioning.

I feel Rugby teams skill levels has definitely suffered as a result of the importance put on size and power. Again just my view i'm by no means an expert.

Meathmaverick (Meath) - Posts: 93 - 25/10/2019 13:43:19    2245713

Link

Replying To Cavan_Shambles:  "Too many people have blinkered vision when it comes to rugby coverage.

The Jack Charlton comparison is not an analogous situation at all. Not even closely equivalent. Jack Charlton brought a small country to the last eight of the world Cup, a tournament with bountiful competition and numerous competitive teams. Joe Schmidt finished 8th, on two occasions, in a tournament only four or five countries are capable of winning.

Nobody has a chip on their shoulder about rugby, many people wisely don't buy the expertly marketed hype. Sadly, many do, which is why you have images coming back from Japan of Irish rugby supporters actively cheering when their own team is getting pummelled. And yet I thought rugby was all about passion?"
Yeah a lot here have blinkered vision about rugby. Cant or deliberately will not see improvements in the sport and attempts tonexpabd.

KillingFields (Limerick) - Posts: 1336 - 25/10/2019 14:01:29    2245721

Link

Replying To Cavan_Shambles:  "Too many people have blinkered vision when it comes to rugby coverage.

The Jack Charlton comparison is not an analogous situation at all. Not even closely equivalent. Jack Charlton brought a small country to the last eight of the world Cup, a tournament with bountiful competition and numerous competitive teams. Joe Schmidt finished 8th, on two occasions, in a tournament only four or five countries are capable of winning.

Nobody has a chip on their shoulder about rugby, many people wisely don't buy the expertly marketed hype. Sadly, many do, which is why you have images coming back from Japan of Irish rugby supporters actively cheering when their own team is getting pummelled. And yet I thought rugby was all about passion?"
Blinkered works both ways :)

Anyway, I'm off to find somewhere to talk hurling again. Bye!

Pikeman96 (Wexford) - Posts: 405 - 25/10/2019 14:05:02    2245723

Link

Replying To galwayford:  "Pikeman of Wexford. Right now the Wex hurling team is doing ok. Goodish manager, good image, plenty of sponsorship deals. But be careful. Look at Galway, in 2017, top of the tree, Number one team, future looking great. Fast forward 2019, a few bad results and now at end of 2019, a bleak enough outlook. The GAA has become number 3 now after Rugby and Soccer. And must battle very hard for the sponsorship and publicity money. Loch Garman abú"
In what sense is GAA now number 3 ? Surely still the largest number of clubs , attendance and if all added together sponsorship money too

Breezy (Limerick) - Posts: 1000 - 25/10/2019 14:14:33    2245728

Link

tadhg furlong,sean o brien,paul o connell,good d4 men.

interestingly,i was up in dublin recently and the numbers kilmacud had playing on a saturday morning was absolutely astounding,and i believe there are loads of gaa clubs such as ballyboden,cuola,etc doing the same.

i dont think d4 is only rugby any more.....

perfect10 (Wexford) - Posts: 3767 - 25/10/2019 14:21:59    2245735

Link

Replying To KillingFields:  "Yeah a lot here have blinkered vision about rugby. Cant or deliberately will not see improvements in the sport and attempts tonexpabd."
Did you know, that despite making up just 7% of schools in Ireland, private schools account for more than 70% of Irish international rugby players? That's in 2019 by the way. You'll find the stats are similar going back decades.


I fail to see how your efforts are working. Acknowledgment of a problem is not the same as tackling it.

Cavan_Shambles (Cavan) - Posts: 370 - 25/10/2019 14:36:57    2245742

Link

Replying To Cavan_Shambles:  "Did you know, that despite making up just 7% of schools in Ireland, private schools account for more than 70% of Irish international rugby players? That's in 2019 by the way. You'll find the stats are similar going back decades.


I fail to see how your efforts are working. Acknowledgment of a problem is not the same as tackling it."
The irfu and provinces are tackling it though and when the kids in these schools train more and I general play more games than people who dont attend these schools then of course it's more likely more will be pro rugby players than those who dont attend the schools

Kids who are on the main teams in these schools train an average of 3 times a week with 2 gym sessions, have video sessions of their games etc while those not in the schools system will train once maybe twice a week and not have organised gym sessions or video work done bar those who are already in provincial training squads who will get extra sessions. That means the guys in rugby schools will more likely fo pro.
Many of the rugby schools field 4/5 teams at every level even small schools field 2 at every level so to get on just one school team competition is high and then progress through to provincial teams. It's very simple
Clubs by comparison dont have same level of competition for kids playing within them.

KillingFields (Limerick) - Posts: 1336 - 25/10/2019 15:15:08    2245747

Link

Replying To KillingFields:  "The irfu and provinces are tackling it though and when the kids in these schools train more and I general play more games than people who dont attend these schools then of course it's more likely more will be pro rugby players than those who dont attend the schools

Kids who are on the main teams in these schools train an average of 3 times a week with 2 gym sessions, have video sessions of their games etc while those not in the schools system will train once maybe twice a week and not have organised gym sessions or video work done bar those who are already in provincial training squads who will get extra sessions. That means the guys in rugby schools will more likely fo pro.
Many of the rugby schools field 4/5 teams at every level even small schools field 2 at every level so to get on just one school team competition is high and then progress through to provincial teams. It's very simple
Clubs by comparison dont have same level of competition for kids playing within them."
The irish national team dates back as far as 1875, why is it only now that rugby and it's supporters are acknowledging the fact that the game has an inbuilt elitism?

By the way, I'm not bothered at all by the fact that the sport is dominated by the private schools, personally I don't care where anyone went to school. I do however have a massive issue with the marketing of the game, the hypocrisy and double standards of the media, and a section of the support, but I want to make it clear, I have zero issue with the game itself, or the national team.

Cavan_Shambles (Cavan) - Posts: 370 - 25/10/2019 15:52:31    2245755

Link

Replying To KillingFields:  "Yeah a lot here have blinkered vision about rugby. Cant or deliberately will not see improvements in the sport and attempts tonexpabd."
Yeah agree 100% about people having blinkered vision about the game e.g. 'Team of us', 'This is rugby country'. These things get up peoples noses and Irish people like nothing more than putting people back in their proper places when they lose than run of themselves. This is the fourth WC in a row where the media and IRFU PR have built up this team as potential winners and they have failed every time to win 1 knock out match but don't worry in 4 years time they will be hyping them up again.

updwell (Limerick) - Posts: 401 - 25/10/2019 16:24:51    2245762

Link

Replying To Cavan_Shambles:  "The irish national team dates back as far as 1875, why is it only now that rugby and it's supporters are acknowledging the fact that the game has an inbuilt elitism?

By the way, I'm not bothered at all by the fact that the sport is dominated by the private schools, personally I don't care where anyone went to school. I do however have a massive issue with the marketing of the game, the hypocrisy and double standards of the media, and a section of the support, but I want to make it clear, I have zero issue with the game itself, or the national team."
All sports market themselves to bring more people into the sport. Why do so many people get upset about rugby doing it? Soccer does the same. Would soccer be anywhere near as popular countrywide if not for jack Charlton and his Irish team of late 80s/early 90s and the change in top flight football when premiership started?
What double standards in the media are you referring to exactly?

KillingFields (Limerick) - Posts: 1336 - 25/10/2019 16:43:20    2245768

Link

Replying To updwell:  "Yeah agree 100% about people having blinkered vision about the game e.g. 'Team of us', 'This is rugby country'. These things get up peoples noses and Irish people like nothing more than putting people back in their proper places when they lose than run of themselves. This is the fourth WC in a row where the media and IRFU PR have built up this team as potential winners and they have failed every time to win 1 knock out match but don't worry in 4 years time they will be hyping them up again."
So media promote the sport. Something GAA and soccer people feel jealous about because media reps in soccer and gaa primarily just look for the negative all the time
That cant be a criticism of rugby. Look at gaa journalists and the GAAs own pr staff than look outwards and try deflect from their poor abilities.
Irish teams havent done enough at world cups. There has been slight progression through winning pools but they havent stepped up. No issue with that. It's just the people who only criticise rugby and then gloat about that are sad as f*** especially when they do it to gloat and get up the noses of rugby supporters
You cant have it both ways. It's so hypocritical.

KillingFields (Limerick) - Posts: 1336 - 25/10/2019 17:13:32    2245774

Link