National Forum

Playing "Keep Ball"...

(Oldest Posts First) - Go To The Latest Post


Replying To TheFlaker:  "Yes genius, if a lad kicks 4 points from play on All Ireland final day your general point about him is nonsensical. If he spent the day floating around as a link man not having an influence then maybe you could question his role."
The topic is entitled 'Keep Ball' , not 'Scoring from short Distance'
Re kicking 4 points, CK kicked 4 points over two games, over 140 minutes of football - I wouldn't call that a great return but sure, you know best!

baire (Galway) - Posts: 1849 - 20/09/2019 11:03:26    2237785

Link

Replying To baire:  "The topic is entitled 'Keep Ball' , not 'Scoring from short Distance'
Re kicking 4 points, CK kicked 4 points over two games, over 140 minutes of football - I wouldn't call that a great return but sure, you know best!"
I am referring to the last day, I have seen him marked out of games like in 17 final but to bring him up the last day as some sort of lad who floats around handpassing is hilarious. To actually have a pop at him after a game he was outstanding in and use him as part of the problem is bizarre.

TheFlaker (Mayo) - Posts: 8355 - 20/09/2019 11:25:15    2237791

Link

Replying To thelongridge:  "I agree with your comments Canuck, on the modern approach to football, and the increased uses hand passing in hurling.
Skills are the core of any game, ahead of S+C."
The skills are so much higher than they were.

Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 4507 - 20/09/2019 11:34:00    2237794

Link

Replying To GreenandRed:  "Pre-Internet Gaelic Football was a sport. The supporters, and small football audience because of few televised games, talked about games in terms like big hits, high fielding, good scores, winning, losing , good/bad refereeing etc. Entertainment was rarely a term used describing football.

Post-internet, many are describing Gaelic Football using the entertaining or boring terms. Unfortunately not just Gaelic football, someone is selling the line that many sports have to be entertaining. I think it's bullshit to draw in casual TV viewers or internet user to part with their cash.
Everyone has their own definition of entertaining. Mr Internet will use the horrific 'Barcelona-like' term as if sport which is not all-out attack is somehow inferior. It isn't. I think in soccer the art of defending is a dying one. I'd prefer to watch Mayo playing lovely free flowing football and win but play a blanket defence and win rather than open attacking stuff and lose.

Anyways, I'm a bad example. It's not free flowing football our good defending that's entertaining for me in a championship game. It's the physical encounters. Players battering the shite out if each other to win the ball, then the roar from the crowd when one team wins the ball them losing from their seats. Television can never adequately capture that and it never will."
I agree with this.

'Lovely football' bores me.

Say Kerry v Mayo this year where there's acres of space.

There was nice scoring and passing but no intensity.

Nothing to get you excited.

I was well entertained for about 130 minutes of the 2 finals.

Loads of turnovers, good defending, good patient build up.

Kerry were out on their feet in the last 10 on Sunday trying to keep in touch with Dublin.

Sometimes teams have nothing left to give.

Dublin managed the game well, as they should when Sam is on the line.

It is bizarre to me that a very enjoyable game would be used to highlight something wrong with the game as a whole. I'd hold the finals up as an example of our game being in great shape when 2 teams try to win and are evenly enough matched.

Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 4507 - 20/09/2019 11:40:32    2237797

Link

Replying To Canuck:  "The players of the past did it. Training twice a week with less resources of 30 backroom support staff. It is hard to believe these great athletes of today can not prefect it."
The players of the past did not do it. Yes there was more kicking but 9/10 the kicking was just hit just a big hoof up to the forwards and hope for the best. To compare that to Connolly's pass last Saturday is laughable.

ConnollyDub (Dublin) - Posts: 2007 - 20/09/2019 12:39:33    2237813

Link

Replying To Whammo86:  "I agree with this.

'Lovely football' bores me.

Say Kerry v Mayo this year where there's acres of space.

There was nice scoring and passing but no intensity.

Nothing to get you excited.

I was well entertained for about 130 minutes of the 2 finals.

Loads of turnovers, good defending, good patient build up.

Kerry were out on their feet in the last 10 on Sunday trying to keep in touch with Dublin.

Sometimes teams have nothing left to give.

Dublin managed the game well, as they should when Sam is on the line.

It is bizarre to me that a very enjoyable game would be used to highlight something wrong with the game as a whole. I'd hold the finals up as an example of our game being in great shape when 2 teams try to win and are evenly enough matched."
Spot on. Them two finals were probably the best advertisement of our games in a long time.

Seriously some people expect too much. That was a brilliant game of football last Saturday, how people can find negatives from that game is beyond me. I mean that first half alone had 18/19 scores from PLAY!!!!!! That's Outrageous in a final!! ……..but I suppose some people will always find something to give out about. Thankfully it seems those people are in a minority judging by this thread.

ConnollyDub (Dublin) - Posts: 2007 - 20/09/2019 12:56:15    2237818

Link

Replying To ConnollyDub:  "The players of the past did not do it. Yes there was more kicking but 9/10 the kicking was just hit just a big hoof up to the forwards and hope for the best. To compare that to Connolly's pass last Saturday is laughable."
That is about as stupid a statement as been made on the subject to date. Obviously you and others have seen little or none of football in the past to make a judgement. It may be an age thing. Let me inform you there were many, many players from the past who would thread the ball with the foot through the eye of an needle. It is insulting to these players, many from your own county to describe their play as such. As good as Connolly's pass was he is along way off of the skills of those players.

Canuck (Waterford) - Posts: 3026 - 20/09/2019 14:29:49    2237833

Link

Replying To ConnollyDub:  "Spot on. Them two finals were probably the best advertisement of our games in a long time.

Seriously some people expect too much. That was a brilliant game of football last Saturday, how people can find negatives from that game is beyond me. I mean that first half alone had 18/19 scores from PLAY!!!!!! That's Outrageous in a final!! ……..but I suppose some people will always find something to give out about. Thankfully it seems those people are in a minority judging by this thread."
wouldnt say the minority now in fairness...no rules wre broken when this country went down the tubes 10 years ago but that didnt mean it was right or lawful what happened...keeping the ball deliberately without making obvious attempts to progress towards your opponents goals, is unsporting, dress it up anyway you like. Having said that, I was first to say Dublin deserved their 5 in row, best team around in years, if not ever, calibre of players is a breath to behold, some say they will go eventually, if the talent is comming through, I can see Dublin winning a few more before they decline..

Fairplayalways (Offaly) - Posts: 1037 - 20/09/2019 14:58:55    2237844

Link

Replying To Canuck:  "That is about as stupid a statement as been made on the subject to date. Obviously you and others have seen little or none of football in the past to make a judgement. It may be an age thing. Let me inform you there were many, many players from the past who would thread the ball with the foot through the eye of an needle. It is insulting to these players, many from your own county to describe their play as such. As good as Connolly's pass was he is along way off of the skills of those players."
As good as Connolly's pass was he is along way off of the skills of those players

oh dear...

did you really just say that ??

now i know you haven't a clue

ConnollyDub (Dublin) - Posts: 2007 - 20/09/2019 15:08:52    2237847

Link

Replying To TheFlaker:  "I am referring to the last day, I have seen him marked out of games like in 17 final but to bring him up the last day as some sort of lad who floats around handpassing is hilarious. To actually have a pop at him after a game he was outstanding in and use him as part of the problem is bizarre."
I wasn't taking a pop at any player, esp not C Kilkenny. He's from good Galway stock, related to the great Seán Purcell, a good gael who speaks the language, a great athlete with huge strength and conditioning plus a great footballer. The discussion on the thread is about 'playing to keep the ball'. Possession nowadays is all important and that possession is kept most of the time by hand passing the ball to a team mate who is near the player in possession. CK does what he has been coached to do by Gavin and co.
The point I made was that if one of the best players of the game does not practice kick passing we should not expect others to do it. The fact that there was such a fuss about Connolly's long ball (which the defender misjudged) clearly shows how rare it is these days. The long kick is rare and the short kick pass is nearly as rare.
One of the reasons, one of the reasons I repeat, why the first half was more exciting than the second was due to the fact that Kerry were kicking long balls into the forwards, while Dublin with the spare defender were able to counter attack.

baire (Galway) - Posts: 1849 - 20/09/2019 15:54:02    2237859

Link

Replying To Fairplayalways:  "wouldnt say the minority now in fairness...no rules wre broken when this country went down the tubes 10 years ago but that didnt mean it was right or lawful what happened...keeping the ball deliberately without making obvious attempts to progress towards your opponents goals, is unsporting, dress it up anyway you like. Having said that, I was first to say Dublin deserved their 5 in row, best team around in years, if not ever, calibre of players is a breath to behold, some say they will go eventually, if the talent is comming through, I can see Dublin winning a few more before they decline.."
They did it for a few minutes and they won after being unreal the rest of the game. It wasn't pretty but damn effective and wouldn't have worked if Kerry were as well conditioned as them. It broke Kerry a bit psychologically, their heads were down because they were losing, they wer ed fatigued and Dub llin wouldn't give them a sniff of the ball to try and let them back. In the first game there wasn't such a fuss asking why Kerry retreated at the end and didn't look for a winner. Probably because they were wrecked and the 14 Dubs pressed relentlessly. A very slim chance but had Dublin played fast and loose at the end Kerry could have countered and beat them. Then Dublin would have been called naive. I was hoping they were at half-time in the semis but 12 minutes of brilliance woke me up. They have plans A to Z and throw in a few more alphabets.

GreenandRed (Mayo) - Posts: 7923 - 20/09/2019 15:54:52    2237860

Link

Replying To ConnollyDub:  "As good as Connolly's pass was he is along way off of the skills of those players

oh dear...

did you really just say that ??

now i know you haven't a clue"
I never question the knowledge of any poster one here or reference anyone as clueless. You degrade the skill of your past team players. Tony Hanahoe, Bobby Doyle, Anto O'toole (R.I.P.) Jimmy Keaveney. Brian Mullins, Kevin Moran etc. etc. You shockenly said these players could not make a pass with their foot. I wonder how the other Dublin posters feel about that. Not from Dublin but have respect for those who wore the shirt with pride and lots of skill. They did not receive their successes in a lucky bag as one person said.

Canuck (Waterford) - Posts: 3026 - 20/09/2019 16:45:54    2237868

Link

Replying To Fairplayalways:  "wouldnt say the minority now in fairness...no rules wre broken when this country went down the tubes 10 years ago but that didnt mean it was right or lawful what happened...keeping the ball deliberately without making obvious attempts to progress towards your opponents goals, is unsporting, dress it up anyway you like. Having said that, I was first to say Dublin deserved their 5 in row, best team around in years, if not ever, calibre of players is a breath to behold, some say they will go eventually, if the talent is comming through, I can see Dublin winning a few more before they decline.."
No it isn't unsporting. Just because it's not nice to watch doesn't mean it's unsporting from the team doing it. They are doing it because they are allowed to do it, not by exploiting the current rules, but by the the opposing team choosing not to do anything about it. You wouldn't see it in any other sport. It's crazy to watch teams losing games in this sport yet still stick with the negative tactic of not pushing up on opposition kickouts and opponents in possession. They continue to pull most of their players back inside the 45 and stand there waiting for the opposition to come at them. They deserve what they get. Why should the team winning the game play in to their hands? It's about time teams and coaches started learning to adapt to the score board and change tactic to suit the situation, not continue to mindlessly concede an entire half of the pitch when your 5/6 points down going in to the last few mins of a game.

There is nothing wrong with the handpass in itself. The keep ball situations arise typically when atleast one team employs negative tactics by flooding players behind the ball. It's no secret that the worst games to watch are when two teams meet who set up this way. If team don't employ these tactics then you can have a great spectacle. The drawn final this year was the best game of football I have seen in the last 10 years. The replay wasn't far behind it in terms of spectacle. No rules were changed, only the mindset of teams.

lady_gaagaa (Westmeath) - Posts: 97 - 20/09/2019 17:11:23    2237871

Link

Replying To baire:  "I wasn't taking a pop at any player, esp not C Kilkenny. He's from good Galway stock, related to the great Seán Purcell, a good gael who speaks the language, a great athlete with huge strength and conditioning plus a great footballer. The discussion on the thread is about 'playing to keep the ball'. Possession nowadays is all important and that possession is kept most of the time by hand passing the ball to a team mate who is near the player in possession. CK does what he has been coached to do by Gavin and co.
The point I made was that if one of the best players of the game does not practice kick passing we should not expect others to do it. The fact that there was such a fuss about Connolly's long ball (which the defender misjudged) clearly shows how rare it is these days. The long kick is rare and the short kick pass is nearly as rare.
One of the reasons, one of the reasons I repeat, why the first half was more exciting than the second was due to the fact that Kerry were kicking long balls into the forwards, while Dublin with the spare defender were able to counter attack."
You literally mentioned him as the problem when making your point. There was nothing positive about it. When you are pulling back now talking about what stock he is from you are trying to hard!

TheFlaker (Mayo) - Posts: 8355 - 20/09/2019 17:41:21    2237875

Link

Replying To Whammo86:  "The skills are so much higher than they were."
Fielding high balls, apart the odd midfielder, 50/50 balls to test two players going for the one ball, long range passes, long range points and kick passing are rare in gaelic football today because the game has evolved into a possession at all costs game, more akin to basketball and soccer. Other 'skills' are honed, S&C, athleticism, speed, quick hand passing and duvet defending - all part of the modern game. The two goals scored in both finals this year, (by two great players) were scored by speed merchants.
If anyone wants to see high fielding, long range passing and scoring from 40+ metres, watch Aussie Rules, not gaelic football.

baire (Galway) - Posts: 1849 - 20/09/2019 18:08:13    2237884

Link

Replying To baire:  "Fielding high balls, apart the odd midfielder, 50/50 balls to test two players going for the one ball, long range passes, long range points and kick passing are rare in gaelic football today because the game has evolved into a possession at all costs game, more akin to basketball and soccer. Other 'skills' are honed, S&C, athleticism, speed, quick hand passing and duvet defending - all part of the modern game. The two goals scored in both finals this year, (by two great players) were scored by speed merchants.
If anyone wants to see high fielding, long range passing and scoring from 40+ metres, watch Aussie Rules, not gaelic football."
you didn't see any high fielding, long range passing or shots from 40 metres in either the drawn or the replay game? maybe not all shots from 40 metres went over but they were definitely attempted. As for the high fielding and long range passing... yes fair enough not AS common as it was before but these are skills that are utilized in almost every single game of Gaelic football I've seen.

boman11 (Antrim) - Posts: 237 - 20/09/2019 18:23:03    2237885

Link

Replying To baire:  "Fielding high balls, apart the odd midfielder, 50/50 balls to test two players going for the one ball, long range passes, long range points and kick passing are rare in gaelic football today because the game has evolved into a possession at all costs game, more akin to basketball and soccer. Other 'skills' are honed, S&C, athleticism, speed, quick hand passing and duvet defending - all part of the modern game. The two goals scored in both finals this year, (by two great players) were scored by speed merchants.
If anyone wants to see high fielding, long range passing and scoring from 40+ metres, watch Aussie Rules, not gaelic football."
Jack McCaffrey is a great, explosive athlete but he is also so much more than that.

He's an intelligent footballer, who timed a number of forward runs to perfection, in particular the goal.

He also took the ball on to fist pass a great point. He scored off his left under pressure after taking a man on. His finish for the goal was composed and considered after a roughly 70 yard sprint.

In the semi final he played an incredible through ball for Fenton on the run for Dublin's 3rd goal.

Eoin Murchan is a corner back, who roasted a top midfielder before finishing to the bottom corner with the outside of his book.

Seriously if you consider these players to be only the product of S&C training I can't help you.

Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 4507 - 20/09/2019 18:33:33    2237888

Link

Replying To TheFlaker:  "You literally mentioned him as the problem when making your point. There was nothing positive about it. When you are pulling back now talking about what stock he is from you are trying to hard!"
I didn't. You misread my post intentionally. You said I was taking a pop at him which is ridiculous. I'd say he has better things to do these days than to be reading the nonsense on here. I'll say no more about it, you can take your flaking elsewhere! I'm out of here!
Nár laga Dia Ciarán Mac Giolla Chainnigh agus Niamh Nic Giolla Chainnigh! Up the wesht, a mhac!

baire (Galway) - Posts: 1849 - 20/09/2019 18:38:39    2237890

Link

Replying To baire:  "Fielding high balls, apart the odd midfielder, 50/50 balls to test two players going for the one ball, long range passes, long range points and kick passing are rare in gaelic football today because the game has evolved into a possession at all costs game, more akin to basketball and soccer. Other 'skills' are honed, S&C, athleticism, speed, quick hand passing and duvet defending - all part of the modern game. The two goals scored in both finals this year, (by two great players) were scored by speed merchants.
If anyone wants to see high fielding, long range passing and scoring from 40+ metres, watch Aussie Rules, not gaelic football."
I like the AFL right enough but don't like the way the mark makes it stop start. Is every catch a mark by the way? Not sure on that rule.

GreenandRed (Mayo) - Posts: 7923 - 20/09/2019 18:50:46    2237893

Link

Replying To Whammo86:  "Jack McCaffrey is a great, explosive athlete but he is also so much more than that.

He's an intelligent footballer, who timed a number of forward runs to perfection, in particular the goal.

He also took the ball on to fist pass a great point. He scored off his left under pressure after taking a man on. His finish for the goal was composed and considered after a roughly 70 yard sprint.

In the semi final he played an incredible through ball for Fenton on the run for Dublin's 3rd goal.

Eoin Murchan is a corner back, who roasted a top midfielder before finishing to the bottom corner with the outside of his book.

Seriously if you consider these players to be only the product of S&C training I can't help you."
I said:
"The two goals scored in both finals this year, (by two great players) ..."
by two great players, by two great players, by two great players - specsavers?
Where did I say that they were 'only the product of S&C training'?
I said that the following skills are basically not practised anymore due to the emphasis on holding possession at all costs:
high fielding, long range kicking, long range scoring and kick passing. You may be watching a different game to me, maybe I'm imagining all those hand passes, crowded defences, gradual build up towards goal to set up a close range point.
I have no interest in talking about individual teams or players tbh, it's the new way of playing 'gaelic football' and we all have a fair idea how it evolved and why. I'm off now.

baire (Galway) - Posts: 1849 - 20/09/2019 18:56:38    2237895

Link