National Forum

Playing "Keep Ball"...

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Replying To Halfdinnerandraspberrycheesecake:  "Because the current system isn't working. Watching Dublin play keep ball for periods of the replay diminishes the game"
And playing 14 men in your own 45 with a blanket defense doesn't diminish the game? Have you ever watched the 2011 AI QF between Dublin and Donegal?

Joxer (Dublin) - Posts: 4740 - 16/09/2019 15:24:31    2236152

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Replying To MesAmis:  "But your suggestions would incentivise the blanket defence. Why do you want changes that would encourage the blanket defence and make it more potent?"
My question to you and not saying all these changes got us to where we are but are factual. Was there blanket defence when the ball had to be fisted? kicked off the ground ? the majority of passes and play were kicked and went forward ? No black, yellow or red cards? no professional paid managers ? Is what we have today going to stop blanket defence and soccer tactics over and back and back further pushing the opposition to line up across the field to stop the break through. Chicken or the egg scenario as to which tactic is the issue.
Now I don't have my head stuck in the sand and know that every thing evolves but the rules need to evolve also to make sure the game does not digress. The sad thing about it is hurling is heading down the same road. The only difference is it is easier to be turned over in hurling.
The big concern to me is the low percentage of ball now kicked in a football game. There was and is always a place for hand passing in the game but now more used that the boot says we don't have a football game anymore. Lets start there and see can we do something to cause football to break out.

Canuck (Waterford) - Posts: 3026 - 16/09/2019 15:37:03    2236162

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Onus is on the team without the ball to get it back. Always should be no matter what tactics are being used.

Dublin were cruising V Donegal in a QF a few years back. Even though they only had 14 on, they kept the ball as Donegal had everyone behind the ball (despite being 5 or 6 behind with the clock ticking). Under no pressure, COS tried an ambitous pass which Donegal intercepted and from the break, they got a goal back. All of a sudden they were back in the game. Dublin saw the game out with Mannion getting a great solo goal but it was less comfortable than it should have been. Am sure JG looked at it afterwards and made sure that Dublin don't go coughing up a ball easily in such situations again.

Dinosbar&grill (Dublin) - Posts: 23 - 16/09/2019 15:44:33    2236166

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I think there is no embarrassing thing in football then playing the blanket and being made to look a fool off by the opposition playing in front of you, especially when you are behind.

Felt for Tyrone for the past couple of years and Kerry in the two games this year.

TheUsername (Dublin) - Posts: 4503 - 16/09/2019 15:46:24    2236167

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I can't believe some of the nonsense being thrown around here. If the opposition has the ball and you're losing, what do you do?
The same thing teams have been doing for decades, push up on them and put pressure on the ball. What you don't do is keep your whole team inside your 45.
This isn't a radical solution, it's stating the obvious.
Dr Crokes did the exact same thing to Slaughtneil in the club final a few years ago. Slaughtneil didn't push out and paid the price. They didn't see the ball for most of the last 5 minutes.
It's been mentioned already, but Dublin were a man down and a score down 2 weeks ago. They took some risks and put manic pressure on players with the ball. It worked and they managed to get possession back enough times to work an equaliser.

WanPintWin (Galway) - Posts: 2292 - 16/09/2019 15:49:22    2236169

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Jesus I love reading the armchair experts solutions to certain things. Just because the lad on the couch doesn't like to see it we should bring in stupid rules. The team trying to get the ball back are not pressing up the field, it's as simple as that. They are waiting for that one moment to try and dispossess and don't force the issue enough in case they get sucker punched. Fair play to any team who can run down the clock like that. It happened to Mayo in 17 and while it was so disheartening at the time I could only admire Dublin for it.

If we are forced to change it than it has to be the equivalant of the half court rule in Basketball. That is the best solution.

TheFlaker (Mayo) - Posts: 8355 - 16/09/2019 16:02:34    2236181

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So ban 'keep ball' because managers are too silly to tell their players to push up and have a go when they are behind on the biggest day of the year? I thought Kerry were one of those teams who didn't need to be told how to play football anyway.

SaffronDon (Antrim) - Posts: 2557 - 16/09/2019 16:05:19    2236185

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Replying To WanPintWin:  "I can't believe some of the nonsense being thrown around here. If the opposition has the ball and you're losing, what do you do?
The same thing teams have been doing for decades, push up on them and put pressure on the ball. What you don't do is keep your whole team inside your 45.
This isn't a radical solution, it's stating the obvious.
Dr Crokes did the exact same thing to Slaughtneil in the club final a few years ago. Slaughtneil didn't push out and paid the price. They didn't see the ball for most of the last 5 minutes.
It's been mentioned already, but Dublin were a man down and a score down 2 weeks ago. They took some risks and put manic pressure on players with the ball. It worked and they managed to get possession back enough times to work an equaliser."
Technically you are correct but is it as simple as that. The opposition will drop back more players to out number and with basket style play overlap you with hand passes. The big difference is a football pitch makes it much easier to execute this than a basketball court. In fairness to Dublin they did deal with it better but that is the exception to what happens most times. Like the 14 men beating the 15 men.

Canuck (Waterford) - Posts: 3026 - 16/09/2019 16:21:27    2236193

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Replying To WanPintWin:  "I can't believe some of the nonsense being thrown around here. If the opposition has the ball and you're losing, what do you do?
The same thing teams have been doing for decades, push up on them and put pressure on the ball. What you don't do is keep your whole team inside your 45.
This isn't a radical solution, it's stating the obvious.
Dr Crokes did the exact same thing to Slaughtneil in the club final a few years ago. Slaughtneil didn't push out and paid the price. They didn't see the ball for most of the last 5 minutes.
It's been mentioned already, but Dublin were a man down and a score down 2 weeks ago. They took some risks and put manic pressure on players with the ball. It worked and they managed to get possession back enough times to work an equaliser."
It worked because Kerry decided to protect a slender lead thus losing all their momentum, and simply invited Dublin on to them.

neverright (Roscommon) - Posts: 1648 - 16/09/2019 16:43:12    2236204

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Replying To Canuck:  "Technically you are correct but is it as simple as that. The opposition will drop back more players to out number and with basket style play overlap you with hand passes. The big difference is a football pitch makes it much easier to execute this than a basketball court. In fairness to Dublin they did deal with it better but that is the exception to what happens most times. Like the 14 men beating the 15 men."
If a team pushes up and commits, you'll very quickly see how difficult it is for the opposition to handpass their way out of trouble. The further a team is hemmed in, the less space and options they have and the much greater likelihood of an interception. Everyone has a man, so as long as players aren't lazy and do their job, it can be and is regularly done.
2 weeks ago, technically Kerry had Tommy Walsh almost completely free (Cluxton actually came out to mark him), but they couldn't even get their heads up to see him, never mind get the ball to him, such was the pressure.

WanPintWin (Galway) - Posts: 2292 - 16/09/2019 16:57:20    2236214

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Replying To neverright:  "It worked because Kerry decided to protect a slender lead thus losing all their momentum, and simply invited Dublin on to them."
Which is exactly what any team passing the ball around is doing playing 'keep-ball' us doing. Some teams don't take the invite and simply stay with everyone inside their half.
Kerry were invited to put pressure on Dublin further up the pitch during that 3 minute spell. They didn't do it and only engaged around their own 45m line.

WanPintWin (Galway) - Posts: 2292 - 16/09/2019 17:20:00    2236233

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Replying To WanPintWin:  "If a team pushes up and commits, you'll very quickly see how difficult it is for the opposition to handpass their way out of trouble. The further a team is hemmed in, the less space and options they have and the much greater likelihood of an interception. Everyone has a man, so as long as players aren't lazy and do their job, it can be and is regularly done.
2 weeks ago, technically Kerry had Tommy Walsh almost completely free (Cluxton actually came out to mark him), but they couldn't even get their heads up to see him, never mind get the ball to him, such was the pressure."
While I hate the soccer tactics in gaelic football, sooner or later the ball has to be delivered accurately with the foot. Yes they can head it but low % to kicking. That is the way hand passing used to be to kicking in gaelic football.

Canuck (Waterford) - Posts: 3026 - 16/09/2019 17:37:18    2236245

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The key to eliminating uncontested possession is to create a fairer contest for possession in open play. That creates an incentive for teams to break out of the rigid "everybody back" mindset. Why push up when you have no chance of a turnover?

How this is done is a difficult question, but certainly the tendency for leniency on over-carrying, and eagerness to ping legitimate tackles, are places to start in my opinion. Some ideas-

1) Change from a 'steps' to a 'seconds' rule- easier to count
2) Remove the double/controlling hop entirely.
3) A player carrying into a choke tackle- turnover and indirect free kick
4) Eliminate hand-passed points and goals scored in flight from a hand-pass
5) Limit the hand-pass: kick only after a one-two in own half
Back-pass rule: no-hand pass back to keeper from kick out, keeper must kick after receiving a back-pass

Eddie the Exile (Monaghan) - Posts: 1189 - 16/09/2019 17:42:36    2236249

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Replying To TheFlaker:  "Jesus I love reading the armchair experts solutions to certain things. Just because the lad on the couch doesn't like to see it we should bring in stupid rules. The team trying to get the ball back are not pressing up the field, it's as simple as that. They are waiting for that one moment to try and dispossess and don't force the issue enough in case they get sucker punched. Fair play to any team who can run down the clock like that. It happened to Mayo in 17 and while it was so disheartening at the time I could only admire Dublin for it.

If we are forced to change it than it has to be the equivalant of the half court rule in Basketball. That is the best solution."
I agree with you but the equivalent of the half court rule would be very difficult to implement and would only encourage teams to withdraw all players into their 45. Some kind of "reverse offside rule" may work both teams have to keep x players in the attacking teams half. Needs more thought but attempting to punish a team for retaining possession when they are 3 points up in the last quarter of a game is just nonsense.

Joxer (Dublin) - Posts: 4740 - 16/09/2019 17:54:33    2236258

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I don't really get the point of this idea that you shouldn't pass back to the goalkeeper.

This isn't soccer.

Anybody can handle the ball.

lionofludesch (Down) - Posts: 475 - 16/09/2019 18:40:17    2236279

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Replying To WanPintWin:  "I can't believe some of the nonsense being thrown around here. If the opposition has the ball and you're losing, what do you do?
The same thing teams have been doing for decades, push up on them and put pressure on the ball. What you don't do is keep your whole team inside your 45.
This isn't a radical solution, it's stating the obvious.
Dr Crokes did the exact same thing to Slaughtneil in the club final a few years ago. Slaughtneil didn't push out and paid the price. They didn't see the ball for most of the last 5 minutes.
It's been mentioned already, but Dublin were a man down and a score down 2 weeks ago. They took some risks and put manic pressure on players with the ball. It worked and they managed to get possession back enough times to work an equaliser."
Completely agree. If a team in a winning position is able to knock the ball around and keep it for a number of minutes then the fault lies with the losing team. The onus is on the losing team to try and win it back by pushing up and pressing the ball, not fall back and hope the winning team attacks.

The way Dublin played and pressured Kerry in added time of the drawn game should be a perfect example of what to do. They turned the ball over 3 times in a 5 min period and that was with a man down.

Crazy to think that the winning team is receiving criticism for not playing in to the hands of the losing team who are making no effort to win it back. I think it shows up how programmed some teams are to retreat behind the ball when not in possession.

lady_gaagaa (Westmeath) - Posts: 97 - 16/09/2019 18:56:19    2236287

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Replying To Joxer:  "I agree with you but the equivalent of the half court rule would be very difficult to implement and would only encourage teams to withdraw all players into their 45. Some kind of "reverse offside rule" may work both teams have to keep x players in the attacking teams half. Needs more thought but attempting to punish a team for retaining possession when they are 3 points up in the last quarter of a game is just nonsense."
I reality it isn't that simple for everyone to withdraw into the 45, if you really want to change it then say the attacking team can't go back into their 45 once they leave it. In that instance even if they did drop loads of men back it would be easy to force them out with a press.

TheFlaker (Mayo) - Posts: 8355 - 16/09/2019 19:01:54    2236291

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A few points
- Kerry's challenge in the first match was that they didn't get two points ahead, Clifford missed a chance to do that. If they were two points ahead they could have fully committed to keep ball and that means going backwards to go forward. Moran was going forward, he should have been looking to his two spare men at the back, one the actual spare man and the other the goalkeeper. (By the way don't know why Walsh was not tracking his man back the field). Dublin with no other option have to push up and that opens the field up and then using use the spare man to get a runner into the space and off you go up the field. It might need a few one twos to get up the field though ultimately have a clifford or a geeney fat the end of the move and they either kick the point or get fouled for a free. Game over. Now I know it's easy say it and I've no doubt kerry were fatigued and insufficient energy could have been their problem.

-more generally a team that's winning with say five minutes have earned the right to do what they want. If a blanket defence team won't come out then go back to corner back and leave ball sit in the ground until they do or the game is over. The team behind have to come out and pressurise the ball and if they don't they are idiots.

-one of the Dublin posters mentioned the donegal match a few years ago. It's a fair point, Dublin did get a bit nervous after the goal and were down a man but rory ball dictated that donegal would still not push out and Dublin won handy enough in the end. It was terribly depressing from a donegal point of view and I'm delighted with the generally much more offensive tactics under bonner.

Ulsterchamps_32 (Donegal) - Posts: 800 - 16/09/2019 19:04:46    2236295

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Others have said this already but I don't think the problem is with the rules or the team in a winning position that keeps possession.

We all know Dublin do this if they are in a position to do so.

It's up to whoever needs to get the ball back to develop a way of doing so.

I actually think though Kerry were just out on their feet by the end.

It was an intense game apart from a couple of occasions Dublin took the sting out of the game.

It's good smart game management and it wasn't only to wind down the clock. They'd that time in the second half where they'd the ball for nearly 2 minutes and ended up getting the score at the end of it.

I just don't think that's bad football at all.

Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 4507 - 16/09/2019 19:36:47    2236306

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It was only a matter of time until posters got criticized for expressing an opinion. My opinion is not on the play of any one team but the way the game is played today. There can be no denying the facts. The ball is hand played now more that kicked. So calling it football anymore is obsolete. Players taking a free walking themselves into a better position meters away from the foul. The rules are there for that but never used. There can be no denying that it takes more skill to kick a dead ball over the bar from the ground. In fact why bother holding up the game for a kick out of the hand 21 meters out . Just give a score.
Connolly's long delivery pass for a score was delightful and double marking, pulling down, would not beat it because it took out the defender and all that line of blanket defenders in between. Risky yes but not of giving up a score only loosing possession. If perfected by more players and teams blanket defence would change.
There are still many accolades the game can be given. Obviously 80K went twice and over 1 million watched. However there is nothing wrong with people expressing opinions and suggesting change, After all the games as it is player today is a result of many changes. Kicking from the hand, hand passing, red, black and yellow cards, Side line balls etc.In my opinion many of these were for the worst. Time to clean up the mess that was created.

Canuck (Waterford) - Posts: 3026 - 16/09/2019 19:51:04    2236311

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