National Forum

Is It Time To Bury Provincial Hurling Championships- At Senior Level

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Replying To StoreysTash:  "Pushing their head back down won't help them.
My earliest memories of Wexford were 10-12 years ago, a very low ebb which involved many bad beatings. Counties will never progress unless they are playing the top teams, eventually they will get up to that level.
Not helping them up, by playing these teams, will never help hurling flourish outside the traditional strongholds."
Wexford was a big county that had some bad years not a weak county that got better by playing established teams

Breezy (Limerick) - Posts: 1041 - 05/02/2020 14:24:41    2265374

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Replying To Hawkeye9212:  "Carlow, Laois, and Westmeath have all been hammered in the League. They simply don't have the resources to be competitive at the top level."
This argument comes up on a regular basis. I wonder the value in Westmeath playing with the top teams and entering the championship without a win behind them.
Tiger Woods Dad was his coach/mentor during his younger years and wouldn't allow him to play in a competition he didn't believe he could win. He reckoned it would help him build the confidence required to be the best!

Ban (Westmeath) - Posts: 1060 - 05/02/2020 15:15:59    2265394

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100% there was way more potential in Wexford 10 years ago than there is in Laois or Carlow right now. They don't have large resources.

I don't think it's a problem though even if those teams never get to the standard where they are challenging for playoff spots I think there's value to more teams being a proper part of the championship.

There's nothing wrong with big defeats. Laois showed last year that they're capable of an upset.

You'd think that those teams would take the odd scalp. That alone means they're having something of an impact on the competition.

Norwich aren't going to win the Premier League, they'll do well to get 30 points. They did beat City and played a part in killing off the title race.

Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 3049 - 05/02/2020 15:29:31    2265398

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Replying To Whammo86:  "100% there was way more potential in Wexford 10 years ago than there is in Laois or Carlow right now. They don't have large resources.

I don't think it's a problem though even if those teams never get to the standard where they are challenging for playoff spots I think there's value to more teams being a proper part of the championship.

There's nothing wrong with big defeats. Laois showed last year that they're capable of an upset.

You'd think that those teams would take the odd scalp. That alone means they're having something of an impact on the competition.

Norwich aren't going to win the Premier League, they'll do well to get 30 points. They did beat City and played a part in killing off the title race."
Always hard to know where the periphery is (whether a team could take a scalp, a boundary that also changes over time).
Example - should 6 Nations Italy still be - ahumm -
'competing' ?

omahant (USA) - Posts: 1816 - 05/02/2020 15:56:05    2265408

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Replying To Ej:  "Wexford's resurrection was down to a lot more than playing against the big boys. There has been huge investment in time and resources by individuals and clubs and the county board.
As someone who has stated that they played senior hurling for the last 3 years you would be aware of that."
Well I didn't think it was the place to get down to the exact details of what happened in Wexford as it is not important.
My point was, and remains, if you are not playing the top teams week in week out, you will not progress.

StoreysTash (Wexford) - Posts: 807 - 05/02/2020 16:06:17    2265412

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Replying To omahant:  "Always hard to know where the periphery is (whether a team could take a scalp, a boundary that also changes over time).
Example - should 6 Nations Italy still be - ahumm -
'competing' ?"
Probably not but the other teams won't give up a trip to Rome. No other team can replace them. Italy are still better than the next best team in Europe which is Georgia.

Hawkeye9212 (Donegal) - Posts: 266 - 05/02/2020 16:12:04    2265414

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Replying To Whammo86:  "100% there was way more potential in Wexford 10 years ago than there is in Laois or Carlow right now. They don't have large resources.

I don't think it's a problem though even if those teams never get to the standard where they are challenging for playoff spots I think there's value to more teams being a proper part of the championship.

There's nothing wrong with big defeats. Laois showed last year that they're capable of an upset.

You'd think that those teams would take the odd scalp. That alone means they're having something of an impact on the competition.

Norwich aren't going to win the Premier League, they'll do well to get 30 points. They did beat City and played a part in killing off the title race."
What value is gained from these teams being hammered every year? They might get the odd scalp but that is meaningless in the long run. Laois beat Dublin but the latter proved last weekend that they are still a step above the former.

Hawkeye9212 (Donegal) - Posts: 266 - 05/02/2020 16:13:38    2265417

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Replying To Whammo86:  "100% there was way more potential in Wexford 10 years ago than there is in Laois or Carlow right now. They don't have large resources.

I don't think it's a problem though even if those teams never get to the standard where they are challenging for playoff spots I think there's value to more teams being a proper part of the championship.

There's nothing wrong with big defeats. Laois showed last year that they're capable of an upset.

You'd think that those teams would take the odd scalp. That alone means they're having something of an impact on the competition.

Norwich aren't going to win the Premier League, they'll do well to get 30 points. They did beat City and played a part in killing off the title race."
Not every team can be a contender and nor do they need to be. Supporting a team that never wins can still be fun and most fans are more than happy to see a team achieve within that teams own expectations. I support many teams that will never win a top trophy like Irish soccer or Limerick footballs elusive quest for a 3rd AI victory.

I wonder are soccer fans from teams that blow everything for a few years chasing the top really happy with the exchange or would they have preferred to keep plugging away at their own level and have a financially secure club?

Breezy (Limerick) - Posts: 1041 - 05/02/2020 16:35:30    2265423

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Replying To Hawkeye9212:  "What value is gained from these teams being hammered every year? They might get the odd scalp but that is meaningless in the long run. Laois beat Dublin but the latter proved last weekend that they are still a step above the former."
Yeah man, everything is meaningless if you want it to be.

I can remember Laois last year trudging off the pitch after beating Dublin, the realisation dawning on them that really they'd achieved nothing.

I'm shocked they even turned up for the Tipp game.

Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 3049 - 05/02/2020 18:41:44    2265471

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Replying To Whammo86:  "Yeah man, everything is meaningless if you want it to be.

I can remember Laois last year trudging off the pitch after beating Dublin, the realisation dawning on them that really they'd achieved nothing.

I'm shocked they even turned up for the Tipp game."
One big scalp is meaningless if it doesn't lead to long term development.

Hawkeye9212 (Donegal) - Posts: 266 - 05/02/2020 19:11:27    2265477

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Replying To Hawkeye9212:  "What value is gained from these teams being hammered every year? They might get the odd scalp but that is meaningless in the long run. Laois beat Dublin but the latter proved last weekend that they are still a step above the former."
Going back to 5 may be preferable than continuing with 6.

omahant (USA) - Posts: 1816 - 05/02/2020 22:31:48    2265543

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Replying To Hawkeye9212:  "One big scalp is meaningless if it doesn't lead to long term development."
https://www.google.ie/amp/s/www.rte.ie/amp/1061695/

If the managers of the teams you are talking about didn't want to play at the higher level I'd appreciate your argument more.

What would constitute long term improvement anyway.

I don't think the gap between the 8th and 9th best teams are as wide as you guys think.

Teams will never improve if not given the chance to improve.

All of the current top 9 teams won't continue to be competitive for the next 30 years. Look at Offaly.

What's the plan then decrease things to 7 or 8 teams.

Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 3049 - 06/02/2020 07:03:32    2265575

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Replying To Whammo86:  "https://www.google.ie/amp/s/www.rte.ie/amp/1061695/

If the managers of the teams you are talking about didn't want to play at the higher level I'd appreciate your argument more.

What would constitute long term improvement anyway.

I don't think the gap between the 8th and 9th best teams are as wide as you guys think.

Teams will never improve if not given the chance to improve.

All of the current top 9 teams won't continue to be competitive for the next 30 years. Look at Offaly.

What's the plan then decrease things to 7 or 8 teams."
Good for them. Doesn't seem to be working out for these managers. The current teams don't want an increase in the number of teams or to abolish the provincials. What they say goes.

Hawkeye9212 (Donegal) - Posts: 266 - 06/02/2020 09:36:18    2265591

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Replying To Hawkeye9212:  "Good for them. Doesn't seem to be working out for these managers. The current teams don't want an increase in the number of teams or to abolish the provincials. What they say goes."
Increasing Leinster is being actively discussed.

The Provincials would stay in the systems being proposed here.

Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 3049 - 06/02/2020 15:13:01    2265704

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Replying To Whammo86:  "Increasing Leinster is being actively discussed.

The Provincials would stay in the systems being proposed here."
So Leinster teams will be playing 5 games whereas Munster teams will only be playing 4. The Munster counties will be happy with that.

Hawkeye9212 (Donegal) - Posts: 266 - 06/02/2020 17:25:07    2265730

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Replying To Hawkeye9212:  "So Leinster teams will be playing 5 games whereas Munster teams will only be playing 4. The Munster counties will be happy with that."
The Leinster championship is still easier.

Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 3049 - 06/02/2020 22:54:38    2265820

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It never effected Kilkenny. And before you say they were exceptional, even in 2014 and 2015 when other teams had caught up they were never flat in their semis after winning Leinster.

Maybe it's more to do with the training regieme and also not as used to Croke Park. Up to the Munster Champs to sort themselves out.
BliainanÁir (Laois) - Posts: 598 - 29/07/2019 20:18:39 2218441


My own sentiments exactly Kilkenny never whinged got on with it diden't do them any harm

There are very few hurling matches why on earth would be want to dump a major competition if any of the big 3
get to a Munster or Leinster final they will utmost to win it

clooney (Clare) - Posts: 546 - 13/02/2020 16:56:01    2267548

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Switch Clare for Galway in the 2020 NHL groups and you have two 6-team Prov Championships.

For fixture variety in the NHL, you could have '6 in 1A v 6 in 1B'.

NHL could have a 12-team, 11-match table carrying over the prior 'Prov 5-match tables'.

McCarthy Cup Championship could have a 12-team, 11-match table carrying over the prior 'NHL 6-match tables'.

omahant (USA) - Posts: 1816 - 17/02/2020 03:29:27    2268063

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westmeath gave cork a good game of it yesterday,but for 14 men they might have won it.
this is where the game needs to expand,and they need to be playing these top teams

perfect10 (Wexford) - Posts: 3772 - 17/02/2020 10:38:02    2268097

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