National Forum

Proposals For 2Nd Tier Championship Pathetic

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Replying To Hawkeye9212:  "
Replying To Rockies:  "[quote=Hawkeye9212:  "3 tiers is enough. The finals of the Intermediate and Junior championships can be held before the semi-finals of the senior championship. <u>All-Ireland Senior Football Championship (Tier 1)</u> 10 teams split into 2 groups of 5. 1st and 2nd - Semi-finals. 5th - Relegated <b>Group A</b> Roscommon Monaghan Cavan Mayo Dublin <b>Group A</b> Kerry Tyrone Meath Galway Donegal <u>All-Ireland Intermediate Football Championship (Tier 2)</u> 10 teams split into 2 groups of 5. 1st and 2nd - Semi-finals. 5th - Relegated <b>Group A</b> Fermanagh Louth Cork Kildare Clare <b>Group B</b> Armagh Tipperary Laois Down Westmeath <u>All-Ireland Junior Football Championship (Tier 3)</u> 12 teams split into 2 groups of 6 1st - Semi-finals. 2nd and 3rd - Quarter-finals. <b>Group A</b> Wicklow Carlow Limerick Wexford Offaly Leitrim <b>Group B</b> Sligo Waterford Antrim Longford London Derry"</div>Really? Your proposal would condemn a proud football county like Derry to oblivion. Let the championship the way it is. Counties like Down have come from nowhere to win All Ireland."
It wouldn't. Derry are responsible for their current situation."]If all of these dumb proposals had been implemented in the past..,Down would never have won in 1960..Donegal would not have won in 1992 and Tyrone would not have emerged as a football power. They would have been warehoused within their respective tiers. If GAA want to drive people to soccer and rugby.,.go ahead with this rubbish

Rockies (Cork) - Posts: 947 - 09/07/2019 20:58:08    2208656

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Is there a workable format for 12 teams in this suggested Tier 2?

Some of the top Division 3 teams in recent years have done well in the Championship.

16 is big cull from the qualifiers.

legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 9187 - 09/07/2019 21:10:13    2208670

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Tiers wouldn't prevent teams from emerging as football powers.

Hawkeye9212 (Donegal) - Posts: 266 - 09/07/2019 21:48:38    2208702

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Replying To legendzxix:  "Is there a workable format for 12 teams in this suggested Tier 2?

Some of the top Division 3 teams in recent years have done well in the Championship.

16 is big cull from the qualifiers."
I remember in 1973, Cork slotted 5 goals against Kerry in Munster final, then went on to win All Ireland. The previous 5 years were dominated by Kerry. Provincial competitions are lifeblood of GAA..in early 90's the Ulster teams dominated after decades in the doldrums . Warehousing them into lower tiers would have ruined that

Rockies (Cork) - Posts: 947 - 09/07/2019 21:51:40    2208705

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Replying To Rockies:  "I remember in 1973, Cork slotted 5 goals against Kerry in Munster final, then went on to win All Ireland. The previous 5 years were dominated by Kerry. Provincial competitions are lifeblood of GAA..in early 90's the Ulster teams dominated after decades in the doldrums . Warehousing them into lower tiers would have ruined that"
You're very much living in the past.

Times have changed. The commitment required to play inter county GAA has sky rocketed.

Players want to be rewarded with more games and more quality games for the effort they are putting in.

The status quo is not working. Less successful counties are already struggling to get their best players out for them.

It's no wonder. Look at the season for an inter county player.

Play preseason and leagues in January, February and March. Then you're only guaranteed 2 more games between then and the end of June at which point usually half of teams will have already exited the championship.

There's a bit of club action in April. Those that play county championship can have teams eliminated from that 17 weeks into the new year. From May that will all shut down because it's not possible to schedule club action around the county teams and their unknown schedule at the start of the year.

Get to October and the let's run off all the club championships as quickly as possible.

The system currently is failing practically all stakeholders and working towards better competition structures right at the top is crucial to that process.

Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 4614 - 09/07/2019 22:31:20    2208739

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Replying To Whammo86:  "You're very much living in the past.

Times have changed. The commitment required to play inter county GAA has sky rocketed.

Players want to be rewarded with more games and more quality games for the effort they are putting in.

The status quo is not working. Less successful counties are already struggling to get their best players out for them.

It's no wonder. Look at the season for an inter county player.

Play preseason and leagues in January, February and March. Then you're only guaranteed 2 more games between then and the end of June at which point usually half of teams will have already exited the championship.

There's a bit of club action in April. Those that play county championship can have teams eliminated from that 17 weeks into the new year. From May that will all shut down because it's not possible to schedule club action around the county teams and their unknown schedule at the start of the year.

Get to October and the let's run off all the club championships as quickly as possible.

The system currently is failing practically all stakeholders and working towards better competition structures right at the top is crucial to that process."
Warehouse teams into lower tiers and I guarantee in 10 years the GAA will wish they were living in the past

Rockies (Cork) - Posts: 947 - 09/07/2019 22:53:00    2208752

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Replying To Rockies:  "Warehouse teams into lower tiers and I guarantee in 10 years the GAA will wish they were living in the past"
No one is warehoused.

It's not static. Teams can move and improve. Get themselves up the tiers.

There should definitely be a good flow between tiers.

A simple structure would involve say 2 divisions of 16 each playing a single round robin then moving on to playoffs.

You have 3 up and 3 down between the divisions. You have plenty of interchange. Teams aren't warehoused in a tier. The play in a division 2 and for most there is a realistic opportunity to get promotion to a top tier.

The big thing that gets teams engaged in the competition isn't that they are playing in a second tier, it's that now there's a serious quality top tier competition.

We get promotion from tier 2 and get a 15 game program against the top teams in the country.

That's a prize worth winning.

Introducing a second tier isn't about sending weaker teams to play only against one another.

It's about creating an overall better competition for everyone. By having promotion and relegation you can create a more compelling championship.

If Antrim play 1 season in this top tier they'd play more of the top teams in that 1 season than they have in the championship over the last 10 years.

Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 4614 - 10/07/2019 00:02:44    2208802

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Each province could have a prelim/qualifier system (there used to be one in Leinster)
Go back to the old Div1/2 -A&B in each with 4 up and 4 down
div 1 teams enter provincial A -
Div 2 teams enter provincial B
Provincial semi finals = seeded draw - 3 A teams and 1 B team
Losing Div 1 teams (and winner of provincial B comp) enter qualifiers
Losing Div 2 teams enter All Ireland 2nd tier

Connacht and Munster would have to join for that

Eg
Ulster A - group 1(Tyrone, Monaghan, Donegal), group 2 (Armagh, Donegal, Down)
Ulster B - (Fermanagh, Antrim, Derry) - top team into semi

Leinster A - group 1(Dublin, Meath, Kildare), Group 2 (Laois, Westmeath, Offaly)
Leinster B - group 1(Louth, longford, Carlow), Group 2 (Wicklow, Wexford, Kilkenny/British champs)

Munster A - (Kerry, Cork, Clare),
Munster B - (Waterford, Tipperary, Limerick)

Connacht A - (Mayo, Roscommon, Galway)
Connacht B - (Sligo, Leitrim, London)

In Ulster/Leinster it goes top 2 from A1, top team from A2 and 1B into provincial semifinals

In Connacht/Ulster it's top team in A is into final, 2nd place in A enters semi v winner B


All Ireland senior 20 teams - 4 provincial winners plus qualifiers from 16 team qualifiers, provincial losers, A group losers (1 Connacht, 1 Munster, 2 Leinster, 2 Ulster), provincial semi final losers (1 Connacht, 1 Munster, 2 Ulster, 2 Leinster)

All Ireland Q finals - no super 8

All Ireland Junior 10 teams - 2 teams from Connacht, 2 from Munster, 3 Ulster, 3 Leinster,
Semi Open draw (teams already played kept apart), 3 groups (3,3,4) - Semis and home final, winners go to New York

Example
Group 1 - Sligo, Louth, Antrim, Waterford
Group 2 - London, Derry, Wicklow, Kilkenny/British champs
Group 3 - limerick, Wexford, carlow

Top 3 plus best runner up into semis and final - final as curtain raiser to senior final

tirawleybaron (Mayo) - Posts: 1600 - 12/07/2019 06:39:52    2209777

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Tier 1

10 teams
2 groups of 5

1st and 2nd - Semi-finals
5th - Relegated to Tier 2

Group A

Donegal
Dublin
Roscommon
Kerry
Monaghan

Group B

Tyrone
Galway
Mayo
Cavan
Meath

Tier 2

6 teams
1 group of 6
The finalists are promoted to Tier 1

1st and 2nd - Final / Quarter-finals of Tier 1
4th and 5th - Relegated

Group A

Laois
Fermanagh
Kildare
Armagh
Clare
Westmeath

Tier 3

16 teams
4 groups of 4
The finalists are promoted to Tier 2

1st and 2nd - Semi-finals

Hawkeye9212 (Donegal) - Posts: 266 - 12/07/2019 20:32:53    2210112

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Replying To Rockies:  "Warehouse teams into lower tiers and I guarantee in 10 years the GAA will wish they were living in the past"
A few counties will move between tiers and even fewer will stay in a top tier and fewer still will be competitive at the top end if the top tier. Ultimately with stronger counties consistently playing the stronger and weaker against weaker the gap in standards between top half and bottom half can only widen.

GreenandRed (Mayo) - Posts: 8245 - 12/07/2019 20:58:31    2210119

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Replying To Hawkeye9212:  "Tier 1

10 teams
2 groups of 5

1st and 2nd - Semi-finals
5th - Relegated to Tier 2

Group A

Donegal
Dublin
Roscommon
Kerry
Monaghan

Group B

Tyrone
Galway
Mayo
Cavan
Meath

Tier 2

6 teams
1 group of 6
The finalists are promoted to Tier 1

1st and 2nd - Final / Quarter-finals of Tier 1
4th and 5th - Relegated

Group A

Laois
Fermanagh
Kildare
Armagh
Clare
Westmeath

Tier 3

16 teams
4 groups of 4
The finalists are promoted to Tier 2

1st and 2nd - Semi-finals"
The teams who finish first in Tier 1 advance to the semis. The teams who finish second play the finalists of Tier 2 in the quarters.

Hawkeye9212 (Donegal) - Posts: 266 - 12/07/2019 21:03:20    2210123

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Replying To tirawleybaron:  "Each province could have a prelim/qualifier system (there used to be one in Leinster)
Go back to the old Div1/2 -A&B in each with 4 up and 4 down
div 1 teams enter provincial A -
Div 2 teams enter provincial B
Provincial semi finals = seeded draw - 3 A teams and 1 B team
Losing Div 1 teams (and winner of provincial B comp) enter qualifiers
Losing Div 2 teams enter All Ireland 2nd tier

Connacht and Munster would have to join for that

Eg
Ulster A - group 1(Tyrone, Monaghan, Donegal), group 2 (Armagh, Donegal, Down)
Ulster B - (Fermanagh, Antrim, Derry) - top team into semi

Leinster A - group 1(Dublin, Meath, Kildare), Group 2 (Laois, Westmeath, Offaly)
Leinster B - group 1(Louth, longford, Carlow), Group 2 (Wicklow, Wexford, Kilkenny/British champs)

Munster A - (Kerry, Cork, Clare),
Munster B - (Waterford, Tipperary, Limerick)

Connacht A - (Mayo, Roscommon, Galway)
Connacht B - (Sligo, Leitrim, London)

In Ulster/Leinster it goes top 2 from A1, top team from A2 and 1B into provincial semifinals

In Connacht/Ulster it's top team in A is into final, 2nd place in A enters semi v winner B


All Ireland senior 20 teams - 4 provincial winners plus qualifiers from 16 team qualifiers, provincial losers, A group losers (1 Connacht, 1 Munster, 2 Leinster, 2 Ulster), provincial semi final losers (1 Connacht, 1 Munster, 2 Ulster, 2 Leinster)

All Ireland Q finals - no super 8

All Ireland Junior 10 teams - 2 teams from Connacht, 2 from Munster, 3 Ulster, 3 Leinster,
Semi Open draw (teams already played kept apart), 3 groups (3,3,4) - Semis and home final, winners go to New York

Example
Group 1 - Sligo, Louth, Antrim, Waterford
Group 2 - London, Derry, Wicklow, Kilkenny/British champs
Group 3 - limerick, Wexford, carlow

Top 3 plus best runner up into semis and final - final as curtain raiser to senior final"
What preliminary/qualifier system used there be in Leinster???

The_Biler (Westmeath) - Posts: 84 - 12/07/2019 21:12:53    2210129

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Replying To GreenandRed:  "A few counties will move between tiers and even fewer will stay in a top tier and fewer still will be competitive at the top end if the top tier. Ultimately with stronger counties consistently playing the stronger and weaker against weaker the gap in standards between top half and bottom half can only widen."
Weaker teams currently play 2 maybe 3 games in the championship and are struggling to get their better players lining out for them. How is that good for anyone's prospects.

Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 4614 - 12/07/2019 21:59:38    2210144

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Replying To The_Biler:  "What preliminary/qualifier system used there be in Leinster???"
From 1993- 2000

In 2000, Wexford, Longford, Carlow and Wicklow played in a group stage eight the winner progressing to the Leinster Q final

In 1999 and 1998: Longford, Wexford, Carlow and Westmeath played off for a q final spot

1997 - Offaly, Westmeath, Wexford and longford- Offaly got to All Ireland Semi afterwards

1996 - Carlow, Wicklow, longford, Wexford


Having more games allowed these teams build momentum and play more championship football as a team

Offaly went on a serious run in 1997

Westmeath developed a team that went on to win Leinster in 2004

Wexford ended up in a league final in 2005

It more games in the summer, more time together that develops a team.

tirawleybaron (Mayo) - Posts: 1600 - 12/07/2019 22:21:28    2210153

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Replying To The_Biler:  "What preliminary/qualifier system used there be in Leinster???"
4 counties used to play amongst themselves and the winner came out to draw proper.

Was about 20 years ago and gave Carlow, Wexford, Wicklow, Longford and others a few rounds before meeting a bigger team.

There's an argument now for just putting Dublin in the final and letting all other counties play the other half of the draw.

On the issue of the 2nd tier competition, I think it will be a disaster and more div 3 and 4 players will take the plane to the us after their provincial matches.

carlovia (None) - Posts: 1541 - 12/07/2019 22:30:40    2210161

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Replying To Whammo86:  "Weaker teams currently play 2 maybe 3 games in the championship and are struggling to get their better players lining out for them. How is that good for anyone's prospects."
Creating an opportunity to improve their standard of football would incentivize prospective intercounty players to play for so-called weaker counties.

GreenandRed (Mayo) - Posts: 8245 - 13/07/2019 02:13:45    2210189

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Replying To GreenandRed:  "Creating an opportunity to improve their standard of football would incentivize prospective intercounty players to play for so-called weaker counties."
I feel like the easiest way to do that would be to have a proper 16 team tier 1, 16 team tier 2.

3 up 3 down.

Every 2 seasons 19 different teams would play a tier 1 season.

The tier 2 is elevated because there's a serious prize at the end of it. Promotion to a 15 game tier 1 season.

Guaranteed 7 home fixtures against top teams.

1 season in that competition would do more for bringing a county on that 20 seasons under the current system.

A team in the second tier would only ever be 1 season away from promotion.

There'd be serious excitement going in to the latter stages of the tier 2 championship to get the chance to go up.

I'd say there would realistically be about 10 teams each season with a shot at going up.

There'd likely by 5-7 teams not at the standard but at least they'd have a good program of games against better teams to get themselves closer.

London/Waterford etc for instance would gain a lot from playing the likes of Longford, Offaly, Carlow, Laois, Derry, Down.

Those teams would be in the hunt to get back up to tier 1.

When you think closely about it I don't know what the downside is.

We can pretend everyone is at the same level or we can accept that some teams aren't and provide a pathway to get them more games and a chance to progress.

Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 4614 - 13/07/2019 11:04:50    2210230

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Replying To tirawleybaron:  "From 1993- 2000

In 2000, Wexford, Longford, Carlow and Wicklow played in a group stage eight the winner progressing to the Leinster Q final

In 1999 and 1998: Longford, Wexford, Carlow and Westmeath played off for a q final spot

1997 - Offaly, Westmeath, Wexford and longford- Offaly got to All Ireland Semi afterwards

1996 - Carlow, Wicklow, longford, Wexford


Having more games allowed these teams build momentum and play more championship football as a team

Offaly went on a serious run in 1997

Westmeath developed a team that went on to win Leinster in 2004

Wexford ended up in a league final in 2005

It more games in the summer, more time together that develops a team."
There was a group stage in 2000 only. Before that there were 2 preliminary rounds and they were both knockout. So for only 1 year teams got more games. From 2001 onward the teams that failed to get past the quarters in Leinster played in one preliminary round the following season.

The_Biler (Westmeath) - Posts: 84 - 18/07/2019 21:25:18    2212940

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Replying To Whammo86:  "
Replying To legendzxix:  "Au contraire Rodders! <b>Proposal B would be played out on the following lines:</b> 16 Teams involved Rd 1: 8 Teams v 8 Teams Rd 2a: 4 Winners Rd 1 v 4 Winners Rd 1 Rd 2b: 4 Losers Rd 1 v 4 Losers Rd 1 Rd 3: 4 Rd 2b Winners v 4 Rd 2a Losers QF: 4 Rd 2a Winners v 4 Rd 3 Winners Semi-finals & Final"</div>Ah fair enough. I must have read it incorrectly elsewhere, it did seem like a dumb solution. That is a good bit better. If they organise for the league to be March to May with break weekends for club action it would be a decent system."
Yes - I recall my 1st reading in the newspapers as well - made no sense like you remember it - like 2 2A winners v 2 2B winners in the QFs.

omahant (USA) - Posts: 3350 - 19/07/2019 01:56:34    2213011

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Replying To carlovia:  "4 counties used to play amongst themselves and the winner came out to draw proper.

Was about 20 years ago and gave Carlow, Wexford, Wicklow, Longford and others a few rounds before meeting a bigger team.

There's an argument now for just putting Dublin in the final and letting all other counties play the other half of the draw.

On the issue of the 2nd tier competition, I think it will be a disaster and more div 3 and 4 players will take the plane to the us after their provincial matches."
Happened for one season 2000. It would probably be better if something like this was introduced, like the Munster and Leinster hurling championship and give teams more summer games.

The_Biler (Westmeath) - Posts: 84 - 19/07/2019 14:05:37    2213173

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