National Forum

Proposals For 2Nd Tier Championship Pathetic

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Replying To Hawkeye9212:  "Limerick seperates teams for hurling by their performances in the previous championship. They have two groups: Group 1 consists of the strongest teams. Group 2 is for the weaker teams.

We could base the 1st staging of the championship on the the League. Division 1 and 2 teams will be in Pool 1 (strongest teams) and Divisions 3 and 4 teams will be in Pool 2 (weakest teams). Each pool is divided into 4 groups of 4. The top two teams in each group advance to the knockout stages. We could keep the strongest and weakest teams seperated until the quarter-finals or pool them all together for a round of 16. Alternatively, the top 8 teams in Pool B could play eachother in a knockout round. The 4 teams which win go on to play the teams which finished second in Pool A. The winners of this round play the teams which finished first in Pool A. Then we have the semis and final. This is similar to the system used by Limerick and the GAA for Joe McDonagh teams.

The championship could be based on the results of the League every year but I would prefer to copy the Limerick format for the 2nd staging. Every team which qualifies for the knockout stage will be in Pool A. The remaining teams will be in Pool B. This format still allows for the creation of a two tier championship."
I really hate structures that give teams easier schedules because they are weaker.

Sport is supposed to be about winning. The structure above incentivizes a team to be relegated from division 2 to get an easier championship draw.

Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 4614 - 18/06/2019 18:59:45    2197241

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Replying To Whammo86:  "I really hate structures that give teams easier schedules because they are weaker.

Sport is supposed to be about winning. The structure above incentivizes a team to be relegated from division 2 to get an easier championship draw."
Which is why I wouldn't based on the League except for the first staging. After that it will based on a teams's previous performance in the championship. They also have to play an extra game to get to the quarter-finals.

Hawkeye9212 (Donegal) - Posts: 266 - 18/06/2019 20:40:41    2197310

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Replying To Hawkeye9212:  "Limerick seperates teams for hurling by their performances in the previous championship. They have two groups: Group 1 consists of the strongest teams. Group 2 is for the weaker teams.

We could base the 1st staging of the championship on the the League. Division 1 and 2 teams will be in Pool 1 (strongest teams) and Divisions 3 and 4 teams will be in Pool 2 (weakest teams). Each pool is divided into 4 groups of 4. The top two teams in each group advance to the knockout stages. We could keep the strongest and weakest teams seperated until the quarter-finals or pool them all together for a round of 16. Alternatively, the top 8 teams in Pool B could play eachother in a knockout round. The 4 teams which win go on to play the teams which finished second in Pool A. The winners of this round play the teams which finished first in Pool A. Then we have the semis and final. This is similar to the system used by Limerick and the GAA for Joe McDonagh teams.

The championship could be based on the results of the League every year but I would prefer to copy the Limerick format for the 2nd staging. Every team which qualifies for the knockout stage will be in Pool A. The remaining teams will be in Pool B. This format still allows for the creation of a two tier championship."
Yes, I like that - opportunity for the Strong and Not So Strong - plenty of Ebb & Flo.

In AI SFC - could use the old NFL 1A, 1B, 2A, 2B - Top 5 in 1A & 1B and Top 1 in 2A & 2B (12 teams) to Rd of 16 - In Div 2 - 2nd v Other 5th and 3rd v Other 4th (4 teams win) to complete Rd of 16 - 6 Div 2 Qualifiers go up and replace 6 Div 1 teams that did not advance. Also, top 2A v top 2B for Tier 2 title before Tier 1 Rd of 16.

omahant (USA) - Posts: 3350 - 19/06/2019 00:38:00    2197400

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Replying To Hawkeye9212:  "Which is why I wouldn't based on the League except for the first staging. After that it will based on a teams's previous performance in the championship. They also have to play an extra game to get to the quarter-finals."
Overall, I like it. There is a form of handicapping. I don't think it motivates tanking - in a given year, teams want to make the KO stage. While a team's relagation helps a team's cause in year 2, there is no motive in destroying their year 1 ambitions.

You could expect the best quarter of teams to stay up, the weakest quarter to stay down and the middle half to yo-yo.

omahant (USA) - Posts: 3350 - 19/06/2019 03:49:56    2197418

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Replying To Groundball:  "
Replying To Whammo86:  "[quote=tirawleybaron:  "[quote=icehonesty:  "[quote=legendzxix:  "[quote=icehonesty:  "This is the best I've seen <a href="https://www.performtraynor.ie/2019/06/03/gaelic-football-competition/">link</a>"</div>Fail = only 1 guaranteed game in the premier competition."
Nothing wrong with that."]There is an awful lot wrong with that.
16 counties finished on June bank holiday weekend.
13 league games shoved into the worst 4 months of the year and then little or no football in Summer.

The reason the weak counties are getting weaker is because the top teams have more time training collectively and more matches in the Summer.

None of these proposals address this.

Move provincials to February with finals on paddy's day
Change league to old 1A, 1B and 2A, 2B and play in late Spring/summer with gap weekend for club championship
Play All Ireland A and B knockout in August/September - based on performance in previous 2 competitions"]There's a lot to be said for a competition along those sorts of lines."]How much time are you leaving for club games?"]Whammo86 Is not far off on his club games estimate but I'll just clarify what I'd suggest.
Unsuccessful counties currently have 2 problems against their development
1. No matches for county team in summer
2. Provincial Club championship delayed until October's/November

If you flipped inter county league and provincial championships everyone would know exactly when their inter county matches were on most of the summer

So if you switched to old 1A/1B, 2A/2B then you would have 7 weekends from 13 (April/May/June) for intercounty and 6 left, 3 club football championship and 3 club hurling championship
Club leagues would have to be played without county players unless you played county on Saturday night and any county man who doesn't play is allowed play for his club on the Sunday

By having an All Ireland knock out from August to September, unsuccessful counties can restart their club championship in mid August. If you seeded provincial club championship entry to allow for this staggered restart of club championship then it should all work out fine

So for example in Wexford's case based on current form, their season would go as follows:
Jan - preseason training
02/09 Feb - Leinster football championship/hurling league
16Feb - 17Mar - inter county hurling league only
22Mar - restart intercounty football league
22Mar/06Apr - 3 rds football league
06April - hurling league final
13 April - Club football championship
20 April - Club hurling championship
27 April - Hurling championship starts and football league restarts
27Apr/03May - Leinster hurling championship and football league - 2 rounds
10 May - Club football championship
17 May - Club Hurling championship
24/31May - Leinster hurling championship/Football league - 2rds
07 June - club football championship
14 June - club hurling championship
21 June - Leinster Hurling final /football league semifinals
28 June - football league finals/all Ireland hurling Qfinals
05 July - All Ireland football A/B championship first rd
12 July - All Ireland A/B football q finals
19 July - All Ireland Hurling Semifinals
26 July - All Ireland Football Semi final
02 Aug - All Ireland Football semifinal
03 Aug - All Ireland Hurling Final
17 Aug - All Ireland football final

Assuming Wexford exit All Ireland B football on 12 July (qfinal) and 19 July from hurling

26 July - restart club football championships
10 Aug - restart club hurling championships
13 Sep - County football final
20 Sep - County hurling final
27 Sep - Leinster football first rd
04 Oct - Leinster hurling semi
11 Oct - Leinster football Qfinal
18 Oct - Leinster hurling final
25 Oct - Leinster football semi
01 Nov - all Ireland club hurling semifinals
08 Nov - Leinster football final
15 Nov - All Ireland club hurling final
22 Nov - All Ireland club football semi finals
29 Nov - All Ireland Club football final

Let's say in Dublin's case - reach all Ireland football final and all Ireland hurling semis

24 Aug - Club hurling q finals
31 Aug - club football q finals
20 Sep - club hurling final
27 Sep - club football final
04 Oct - Leinster club hurling semi final
11 Oct - Leinster club football q final
Then as above

All fits in before December and allows for dual club players and potentially some dual county players depending on progress

tirawleybaron (Mayo) - Posts: 1600 - 19/06/2019 04:34:38    2197420

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Replying To Whammo86:  "I really hate structures that give teams easier schedules because they are weaker.

Sport is supposed to be about winning. The structure above incentivizes a team to be relegated from division 2 to get an easier championship draw."
Actually Amateur sport is about taking part.
Professional sport is about winning

The ethos of the GAA is the promotion of Gaelic Games as an amateur sport

So the whole thing should be about keeping as many teams involved as long as possible

The hurling championship has historically been a farce (Kilkenny, Tipp or Cork win with the odd win by someone else)

football is as bad Kerry or Dublin with the odd surge by another county that has a special generation of players.

Most professional leagues have a better spread of title winners

tirawleybaron (Mayo) - Posts: 1600 - 19/06/2019 05:30:09    2197421

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Did Mr.Horan not think of the obvious solution to his problem based on what we saw this year. Add Dublin, Roscommon and Galway to the Ulster Championship to form his top tier. He could have four groups of three. Play home and away. Each county of the 12 would get four matches each. Winners in each group to contest the All- Ireland semi finals in Clones after an open draw on morning Ireland. Final in Croke Park. Sam for winner and Anglo Celt to runner up.

The other 20 counties could have four groups of five. These would be single rounds with each county having two home and two away games . These draws could be on Sean O'Rourkes programme on a Tuesday.
The four group winners would contest the semis at neutral venues. Draw on 1.00 news. Final in Crocker before All Ireland final . Winners to play New York Gaelic Park. Runners-up to play London

19616609 (Louth) - Posts: 1723 - 23/06/2019 23:59:18    2199542

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Replying To 19616609:  "Did Mr.Horan not think of the obvious solution to his problem based on what we saw this year. Add Dublin, Roscommon and Galway to the Ulster Championship to form his top tier. He could have four groups of three. Play home and away. Each county of the 12 would get four matches each. Winners in each group to contest the All- Ireland semi finals in Clones after an open draw on morning Ireland. Final in Croke Park. Sam for winner and Anglo Celt to runner up.

The other 20 counties could have four groups of five. These would be single rounds with each county having two home and two away games . These draws could be on Sean O'Rourkes programme on a Tuesday.
The four group winners would contest the semis at neutral venues. Draw on 1.00 news. Final in Crocker before All Ireland final . Winners to play New York Gaelic Park. Runners-up to play London"
Kerry and Mayo in B championship.
Your giving us a great shot at an All Ireland.

tirawleybaron (Mayo) - Posts: 1600 - 24/06/2019 09:40:25    2199647

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The provincial championships are lopsided so basing a tiered championship on them would be a mistake.

Hawkeye9212 (Donegal) - Posts: 266 - 24/06/2019 10:24:10    2199701

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Replying To tirawleybaron:  "Actually Amateur sport is about taking part.
Professional sport is about winning

The ethos of the GAA is the promotion of Gaelic Games as an amateur sport

So the whole thing should be about keeping as many teams involved as long as possible

The hurling championship has historically been a farce (Kilkenny, Tipp or Cork win with the odd win by someone else)

football is as bad Kerry or Dublin with the odd surge by another county that has a special generation of players.

Most professional leagues have a better spread of title winners"
Nah it's competitive sport regardless of whether it is amateur or not.

Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 4614 - 24/06/2019 10:43:16    2199721

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Split the 4x8 NFL into 6 divisions instead.
Top 5 in Div 1 form new Div 1.
Bottom 5 in Div 2 form new Div 2.
Other 6 in Divs 1 & 2 form new Div 1.5.

Teams in Divs 1 & 2 play a round robin (4 games) and play all in Div 1.5 (6 games) leaving all with a 10-match schedule. Top 8 across all 16 to Tier 1 AI QFs. Bottom 4 of 16 get byes to QFs in 12-team KO Tier 2.

Top 5 in Div 3 form new Div 3.
Bottom 5 in Div 4 form new Div 4.
Other 6 in Divs 3 & 4 form new Div 3.5.

Teams in Divs 3 & 4 play a round robin (4 games) and play all in Div 3.5 (6 games) leaving all with a 10-match schedule. Top 8 across all 16 to 1st KO Rd of Tier 2 of 12-team KO. SF 4 go up or keep upper tier berth.

Dividions re-allocated for following year based on 16-team tables - SF 4 in Tier 2 to Div 2; Bottom 4 in Tier 1 not making Tier 2 SF 4 to Div 3.

Teams can go up or down by 1, 1.5 or 2 divs, all representing a 1 tier change and plenty of opportunity for all. Play streamlined Provs separately in early season.

omahant (USA) - Posts: 3350 - 25/06/2019 03:54:05    2200398

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Split the 4x8 NFL into 6 divisions instead.
Top 5 in Div 1 form new Div 1.
Bottom 5 in Div 2 form new Div 2.
Other 6 in Divs 1 & 2 form new Div 1.5.

Teams in Divs 1 & 2 play a round robin (4 games) and play all in Div 1.5 (6 games) leaving all with a 10-match schedule. Top 8 across all 16 to Tier 1 AI QFs. Bottom 4 of 16 get byes to QFs in 12-team KO Tier 2.

Top 5 in Div 3 form new Div 3.
Bottom 5 in Div 4 form new Div 4.
Other 6 in Divs 3 & 4 form new Div 3.5.

Teams in Divs 3 & 4 play a round robin (4 games) and play all in Div 3.5 (6 games) leaving all with a 10-match schedule. Top 8 across all 16 to 1st KO Rd of Tier 2 of 12-team KO. SF 4 go up or keep upper tier berth.

Divisions re-allocated for following year based on 16-team tables - SF 4 in Tier 2 to Div 2; Bottom 4 in Tier 1 not making Tier 2 SF 4 to Div 3.

Teams can go up or down by 1, 1.5 or 2 divs, representing a zero or 1 tier change with plenty of opportunity for all. Play streamlined Provs separately in early season.

omahant (USA) - Posts: 3350 - 25/06/2019 04:02:18    2200400

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Replying To Whammo86:  "Nah it's competitive sport regardless of whether it is amateur or not."
The official guide says:
2. basic Aim
The Association is a National Organisation which has as its basic aim the strengthening of the National Identity in a 32 County Ireland through the preservation and promotion of Gaelic Games and pastimes.
national games
The Association shall promote and control the National games of Hurling, Gaelic Football, Handball and Rounders, and such other games, as may be sanctioned and approved by Annual Congress.
1.4 Additional Aims
(a) The Association shall actively support the Irish
language, traditional Irish dancing, music, song, and other aspects of Irish culture. It shall foster an awareness and love of the national ideals in the people of Ireland, and assist in promoting a community spirit through its clubs.
(b) The Association shall promote its aims amongst communities abroad through its International Units.
(c) The Association shall support the promotion of Camogie and Ladies Gaelic Football.
(d) The Association shall use all practical endeavours to support Irish Industry especially in relation to the provision of trophies and playing gear and equipment.

Doesn't say anything about promoting an elite competition to attain the highest possible standards

tirawleybaron (Mayo) - Posts: 1600 - 25/06/2019 05:07:03    2200403

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Replying To tirawleybaron:  "The official guide says:
2. basic Aim
The Association is a National Organisation which has as its basic aim the strengthening of the National Identity in a 32 County Ireland through the preservation and promotion of Gaelic Games and pastimes.
national games
The Association shall promote and control the National games of Hurling, Gaelic Football, Handball and Rounders, and such other games, as may be sanctioned and approved by Annual Congress.
1.4 Additional Aims
(a) The Association shall actively support the Irish
language, traditional Irish dancing, music, song, and other aspects of Irish culture. It shall foster an awareness and love of the national ideals in the people of Ireland, and assist in promoting a community spirit through its clubs.
(b) The Association shall promote its aims amongst communities abroad through its International Units.
(c) The Association shall support the promotion of Camogie and Ladies Gaelic Football.
(d) The Association shall use all practical endeavours to support Irish Industry especially in relation to the provision of trophies and playing gear and equipment.

Doesn't say anything about promoting an elite competition to attain the highest possible standards"
Right

Your point is?

It doesn't say much about any of the current activities of the association.

My assertion would be that the All Ireland championships are a better promotional tool as the top level of our game if they have competitive integrity. That integrity can be undermined by having incentives to lose.

Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 4614 - 25/06/2019 12:54:08    2200568

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I think we should leave the League as it is. The GAA could create a two or three tier championship. The finals could be held before the semi-finals of the the Tier 1 competition. Teams can be promoted/relegated between the tiers. RTÉ must air games from all three tiers. Give some of the games to Virgin and TG4.

The following example for a three tier championship is based on the 2019 League.

Tier 1: 10 teams
Tier 2: 10 teams
Tier 3: 12 teams

Tier 1

Group A

Kerry
Cavan
Tyrone
Roscommon
Meath

Group B

Mayo
Donegal
Galway
Dublin
Monaghan

Each team plays eachother once. The top two teams advance to the semi-finals. The teams who finish last are relegated to Tier 2. Alternatively, the team who finishes top advances to the semi-final. The next two teams advance to the quarter-finals.

Week 1 Fixtures

Cavan vs Meath
Roscommon vs Tyrone
Monaghan vs Donegal
Dublin vs Galway

Tier 2

Group A

Fermanagh
Tipperary
Westmeath
Cork
Clare

Group B

Louth
Armagh
Down
Kildare
Laois

Each team plays eachother once. The top two teams advance to the semi-finals. The teams who finish last are relegated to Tier 3. Alternatively, the team who finishes top advances to the semi-final. The next two teams advance to the quarter-finals. The finalists are promoted to Tier 1.

Week 1 Fixtures

Cork vs Westmeath
Tipperary vs Fermanagh
Down vs Kildare
Louth vs Armagh

Tier 3

Group A

Limerick
Carlow
Leitrim
Wexford
Derry
Offaly

Group B

Sligo
London
Longford
Antrim
Wicklow
Waterford

Each team plays eachother once. The team who finishes top advances to the semi-finals. The next two teams advance to the quarter-finals. The finalists are promoted to Tier 2.

Week 1 Fixtures

Offaly vs Wexford
Derry vs Leitrim
Limerick vs Carlow
Wicklow vs London
Waterford vs Antrim
Longford vs Sligo

Hawkeye9212 (Donegal) - Posts: 266 - 25/06/2019 22:01:23    2200941

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Proposal for a two tier championship:

Tier 1

12 teams split into 2 groups of 6. The team who finishes top advances to the semi-finals. The next two teams advance to the quarter-finals. The teams who finish bottom are relegated.

Tier 2

20 teams split into 4 groups of 5. The team who finishes top advances to the semi-finals. The next two teams advance to the quarter-finals.

Tier 1

Group A

Donegal
Cavan
Tyrone
Kerry
Meath
Galway

Group B

Fermanagh
Kildare
Roscommon
Dublin
Monaghan
Mayo

Tier 2

Group A

Westmeath
Armagh
Longford
Tipperary
Wicklow

Group B

Derry
Carlow
Cork
Laois
Waterford

Group C

Down
Limerick
Clare
Wexford
Louth

Group D

Offaly
Antrim
Sligo
Leitrim
London

Hawkeye9212 (Donegal) - Posts: 266 - 26/06/2019 00:36:25    2201018

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Replying To Whammo86:  "Right

Your point is?

It doesn't say much about any of the current activities of the association.

My assertion would be that the All Ireland championships are a better promotional tool as the top level of our game if they have competitive integrity. That integrity can be undermined by having incentives to lose."
Point is that the GAA aims to be about participation

The current system, or any system that doesn't give additional help to the lesser/least successful teams is not in accordance with the sins of the association.

Having an elite system that removes the weaker counties as soon as possible is most definitely against the Ains of the association

tirawleybaron (Mayo) - Posts: 1600 - 26/06/2019 05:13:46    2201033

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The more i think about this new proposal it becomes more infuriating. For Louth next year will mean looking for promotion to avoid being in this new competition while if we are relegated then that guarantees at least 2 more years in the B competition. Then in next years championship, we will play a fellow minnow and either there or later on we will be dumped out of Leinster and be playing another fellow minnow in Tommy Murphy 2 in front of a man and his dog, not exactly something to look forward to if your from a weaker county.

PK57 (Louth) - Posts: 1664 - 26/06/2019 07:07:36    2201039

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It can't be based on the League after the first staging. Teams should be promoted/relegated between the tiers.

Hawkeye9212 (Donegal) - Posts: 266 - 26/06/2019 10:28:31    2201107

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Replying To tirawleybaron:  "Point is that the GAA aims to be about participation

The current system, or any system that doesn't give additional help to the lesser/least successful teams is not in accordance with the sins of the association.

Having an elite system that removes the weaker counties as soon as possible is most definitely against the Ains of the association"
Everyone is a part of the same system. Maybe they can't win Sam Maguire in a season but they are part of the intercounty championship. Playing a proper league campaign.

What I'd be thinking is have the Provincials early on but following that is a league system, with relegation and promotion.

Something for teams to aim for. Targets players can work towards.

You look at say Fermanagh's season how do you rate it.

Eliminated in round 1. Did they not perform. Who knows they drew Donegal and then Monaghan.

Fermanagh could be a team in a Championship 1 or winning a championship 2. If they play a 10 team league against teams around their level and win it that's a serious season and they can aim to build from Championship 1 the following season.

They are playing a proper season.

I hate the GAA's proposal. It is exclusionary but I think not all 2nd tiers have to be like that even if they aren't offering reentry to the main competition.

Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 4614 - 26/06/2019 12:16:19    2201186

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