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Gaelic sports are inherently unfair, primarily due to population distribution. But that's sport, most are unfair in some aspect.
The best you can do is try to even the playing field. Gaelic sports is about championship, we all know and love that. But it's hard to think of any championship as completely lopsided as the current Provincial-to-All Ireland football structure.
If Carlow beat Louth they're still 2 games from a Leinster final. They have to win 7 games to win an AI. Roscommon win 1 game and they're straight into a Connaught final (5 games to win AI). This is not right. There are enough disadvantages in our games without the competition structure adding further disadvantages. Success breeds success, interest and participation - it's not fair that some teams start so much closer to success every year than others.
This brings me to the point of this post.
Keep the provincial championships, but play them instead of the early-year Dr.McKenna type cup competitions that nobody cares about. College teams should not participate in these.
The All Ireland competition should remain regional in early stages - local rivalries are great! - but do it roughly geographically instead of by province - 8 teams in each region.
Northern Championship - Donegal, Derry, Antrim, Down, Armagh, Monaghan, Fermanagh, Tyrone
Western Championship - Mayo, Galway, Sligo, Cavan, Roscommon, Longford, Leitrim, London/NY
Eastern Championship - Louth, Meath, Dublin, Wicklow, Laois, Offaly, Kildare, Westmeath
Southern Championship - Wexford, Waterford, Cork, Kerry, Clare, Tipp, Limerick, Carlow
- Regional ch'ships start at QF stage. Draw seeded based on league position that year. Top 4 seeds drawn against bottom 4. Lower seeded teams have home advantage.
- 4 Winners progress to regional semi finals & final. Winner & Runner Up of final progress to All Ireland Quarter Finals. Regional winners have AI QF home advantage. Semis in Croker and final obviously.
- The 4 losers of each region QFs go into the Paidi O'Se Cup. Open draw of 16 teams, knockout. Semis and final played in Croke Park - final on the Saturday eve of All Ireland weekend. Competition to get equal promotion and coverage as All Ireland. Winning squad gets large cash/incentive prize (maybe play AI winners abroad on holiday).
- Ch'ships are run off 13 weeks from start of May. 2 weeks to prepare after club April, then max 6 games in 11 weeks. Not unreasonable at all, & crucially it's the same criteria for all teams.
Advantages
- All teams get chance to win All Ireland every year
- All teams get still get minimum 2 ch'ship games, max of 6. All must play 6 to win AI, or 5 to win the P.OSe.
- Lower seeded teams get a big home game every year (help improve interest, participation, sponsorship, atmosphere)
- Avoids group format & meaningless games - no team can lose 2 games and still win something.
- Still getting plenty big games in Croke Park (Dublin home games, Eastern Final, then 4 semis & 2 finals)
- All Ireland Final Day becomes All Ireland Final Weekend (all the additional sponsorship/promotion/tourism you can generate off that)
- Format can be easily replicated at minor. More young players get chance to win something / play at Croker.
- Retains club April and club access to players from start of August (earlier if knocked out) to end October.
Disadvantages
There will be heavy defeats in early round. But this is unavoidable/natural in any competition structure.
I can't see many problems with it honestly.
no.14 (Louth) - Posts: 106 - 27/04/2018 05:55:15
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Sounds like a really good suggestion, the only possible tweak I would suggest is putting the 8 losing regional semi final teams into an open draw with the 8 winning teams of the first round of the PO'S competition. It would mean these 8 teams also get a 2nd chance and it would add an extra round to the PO'S bringing it up to the same 6 games as the AI competition.
KevMcG (Donegal) - Posts: 8 - 27/04/2018 11:15:06
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Replying To no.14: "Gaelic sports are inherently unfair, primarily due to population distribution. But that's sport, most are unfair in some aspect.
The best you can do is try to even the playing field. Gaelic sports is about championship, we all know and love that. But it's hard to think of any championship as completely lopsided as the current Provincial-to-All Ireland football structure.
If Carlow beat Louth they're still 2 games from a Leinster final. They have to win 7 games to win an AI. Roscommon win 1 game and they're straight into a Connaught final (5 games to win AI). This is not right. There are enough disadvantages in our games without the competition structure adding further disadvantages. Success breeds success, interest and participation - it's not fair that some teams start so much closer to success every year than others.
This brings me to the point of this post.
Keep the provincial championships, but play them instead of the early-year Dr.McKenna type cup competitions that nobody cares about. College teams should not participate in these.
The All Ireland competition should remain regional in early stages - local rivalries are great! - but do it roughly geographically instead of by province - 8 teams in each region.
Northern Championship - Donegal, Derry, Antrim, Down, Armagh, Monaghan, Fermanagh, Tyrone
Western Championship - Mayo, Galway, Sligo, Cavan, Roscommon, Longford, Leitrim, London/NY
Eastern Championship - Louth, Meath, Dublin, Wicklow, Laois, Offaly, Kildare, Westmeath
Southern Championship - Wexford, Waterford, Cork, Kerry, Clare, Tipp, Limerick, Carlow
- Regional ch'ships start at QF stage. Draw seeded based on league position that year. Top 4 seeds drawn against bottom 4. Lower seeded teams have home advantage.
- 4 Winners progress to regional semi finals & final. Winner & Runner Up of final progress to All Ireland Quarter Finals. Regional winners have AI QF home advantage. Semis in Croker and final obviously.
- The 4 losers of each region QFs go into the Paidi O'Se Cup. Open draw of 16 teams, knockout. Semis and final played in Croke Park - final on the Saturday eve of All Ireland weekend. Competition to get equal promotion and coverage as All Ireland. Winning squad gets large cash/incentive prize (maybe play AI winners abroad on holiday).
- Ch'ships are run off 13 weeks from start of May. 2 weeks to prepare after club April, then max 6 games in 11 weeks. Not unreasonable at all, & crucially it's the same criteria for all teams.
Advantages
- All teams get chance to win All Ireland every year
- All teams get still get minimum 2 ch'ship games, max of 6. All must play 6 to win AI, or 5 to win the P.OSe.
- Lower seeded teams get a big home game every year (help improve interest, participation, sponsorship, atmosphere)
- Avoids group format & meaningless games - no team can lose 2 games and still win something.
- Still getting plenty big games in Croke Park (Dublin home games, Eastern Final, then 4 semis & 2 finals)
- All Ireland Final Day becomes All Ireland Final Weekend (all the additional sponsorship/promotion/tourism you can generate off that)
- Format can be easily replicated at minor. More young players get chance to win something / play at Croker.
- Retains club April and club access to players from start of August (earlier if knocked out) to end October.
Disadvantages
There will be heavy defeats in early round. But this is unavoidable/natural in any competition structure.
I can't see many problems with it honestly." I think it is very good.
It'd be exciting and easily scheduled.
Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 4329 - 27/04/2018 12:36:20
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Why not straight knockout though?
Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 4329 - 27/04/2018 12:39:13
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Replying To Whammo86: " Replying To no.14: "Gaelic sports are inherently unfair, primarily due to population distribution. But that's sport, most are unfair in some aspect.
The best you can do is try to even the playing field. Gaelic sports is about championship, we all know and love that. But it's hard to think of any championship as completely lopsided as the current Provincial-to-All Ireland football structure.
If Carlow beat Louth they're still 2 games from a Leinster final. They have to win 7 games to win an AI. Roscommon win 1 game and they're straight into a Connaught final (5 games to win AI). This is not right. There are enough disadvantages in our games without the competition structure adding further disadvantages. Success breeds success, interest and participation - it's not fair that some teams start so much closer to success every year than others.
This brings me to the point of this post.
Keep the provincial championships, but play them instead of the early-year Dr.McKenna type cup competitions that nobody cares about. College teams should not participate in these.
The All Ireland competition should remain regional in early stages - local rivalries are great! - but do it roughly geographically instead of by province - 8 teams in each region.
Northern Championship - Donegal, Derry, Antrim, Down, Armagh, Monaghan, Fermanagh, Tyrone
Western Championship - Mayo, Galway, Sligo, Cavan, Roscommon, Longford, Leitrim, London/NY
Eastern Championship - Louth, Meath, Dublin, Wicklow, Laois, Offaly, Kildare, Westmeath
Southern Championship - Wexford, Waterford, Cork, Kerry, Clare, Tipp, Limerick, Carlow
- Regional ch'ships start at QF stage. Draw seeded based on league position that year. Top 4 seeds drawn against bottom 4. Lower seeded teams have home advantage.
- 4 Winners progress to regional semi finals & final. Winner & Runner Up of final progress to All Ireland Quarter Finals. Regional winners have AI QF home advantage. Semis in Croker and final obviously.
- The 4 losers of each region QFs go into the Paidi O'Se Cup. Open draw of 16 teams, knockout. Semis and final played in Croke Park - final on the Saturday eve of All Ireland weekend. Competition to get equal promotion and coverage as All Ireland. Winning squad gets large cash/incentive prize (maybe play AI winners abroad on holiday).
- Ch'ships are run off 13 weeks from start of May. 2 weeks to prepare after club April, then max 6 games in 11 weeks. Not unreasonable at all, & crucially it's the same criteria for all teams.
Advantages
- All teams get chance to win All Ireland every year
- All teams get still get minimum 2 ch'ship games, max of 6. All must play 6 to win AI, or 5 to win the P.OSe.
- Lower seeded teams get a big home game every year (help improve interest, participation, sponsorship, atmosphere)
- Avoids group format & meaningless games - no team can lose 2 games and still win something.
- Still getting plenty big games in Croke Park (Dublin home games, Eastern Final, then 4 semis & 2 finals)
- All Ireland Final Day becomes All Ireland Final Weekend (all the additional sponsorship/promotion/tourism you can generate off that)
- Format can be easily replicated at minor. More young players get chance to win something / play at Croker.
- Retains club April and club access to players from start of August (earlier if knocked out) to end October.
Disadvantages
There will be heavy defeats in early round. But this is unavoidable/natural in any competition structure.
I can't see many problems with it honestly." I think it is very good. It'd be exciting and easily scheduled."
Did I miss something ? - this is a repackaging of Eugene McGee's 4x8 - with a few marginal changes to the drab non-Ulster regions; a few bells and whistles, like Prov Final 8 get two chances; and the addition of the POSe Cup.
I prefer my '2 + 6' - Have a Prov Champs Playoff round - 2 winners to KO Rd 4 (AI QFs), 2 losers to 12-team KO Rd 3 - 4 Prov Final losers to 20-team KO Rd 2, and all 24 others to Rd 1 (8x3 team groups, 2 advance from each).
Dead rubbers are impossible in 3-team groups, if the loser in the 1st group match plays again in the 3rd (when 2 of 3 advance).
After you get to Prov Final 8 and 1st Qual Rd 24 - all need 6 wins for AI - via Front Door, Back Door or any combo of the two.
It's so simple - it actually works !
omahant (USA) - Posts: 2849 - 27/04/2018 20:50:44
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Replying To omahant: " Replying To Whammo86: "[quote=no.14: "Gaelic sports are inherently unfair, primarily due to population distribution. But that's sport, most are unfair in some aspect.
The best you can do is try to even the playing field. Gaelic sports is about championship, we all know and love that. But it's hard to think of any championship as completely lopsided as the current Provincial-to-All Ireland football structure.
If Carlow beat Louth they're still 2 games from a Leinster final. They have to win 7 games to win an AI. Roscommon win 1 game and they're straight into a Connaught final (5 games to win AI). This is not right. There are enough disadvantages in our games without the competition structure adding further disadvantages. Success breeds success, interest and participation - it's not fair that some teams start so much closer to success every year than others.
This brings me to the point of this post.
Keep the provincial championships, but play them instead of the early-year Dr.McKenna type cup competitions that nobody cares about. College teams should not participate in these.
The All Ireland competition should remain regional in early stages - local rivalries are great! - but do it roughly geographically instead of by province - 8 teams in each region.
Northern Championship - Donegal, Derry, Antrim, Down, Armagh, Monaghan, Fermanagh, Tyrone
Western Championship - Mayo, Galway, Sligo, Cavan, Roscommon, Longford, Leitrim, London/NY
Eastern Championship - Louth, Meath, Dublin, Wicklow, Laois, Offaly, Kildare, Westmeath
Southern Championship - Wexford, Waterford, Cork, Kerry, Clare, Tipp, Limerick, Carlow
- Regional ch'ships start at QF stage. Draw seeded based on league position that year. Top 4 seeds drawn against bottom 4. Lower seeded teams have home advantage.
- 4 Winners progress to regional semi finals & final. Winner & Runner Up of final progress to All Ireland Quarter Finals. Regional winners have AI QF home advantage. Semis in Croker and final obviously.
- The 4 losers of each region QFs go into the Paidi O'Se Cup. Open draw of 16 teams, knockout. Semis and final played in Croke Park - final on the Saturday eve of All Ireland weekend. Competition to get equal promotion and coverage as All Ireland. Winning squad gets large cash/incentive prize (maybe play AI winners abroad on holiday).
- Ch'ships are run off 13 weeks from start of May. 2 weeks to prepare after club April, then max 6 games in 11 weeks. Not unreasonable at all, & crucially it's the same criteria for all teams.
Advantages
- All teams get chance to win All Ireland every year
- All teams get still get minimum 2 ch'ship games, max of 6. All must play 6 to win AI, or 5 to win the P.OSe.
- Lower seeded teams get a big home game every year (help improve interest, participation, sponsorship, atmosphere)
- Avoids group format & meaningless games - no team can lose 2 games and still win something.
- Still getting plenty big games in Croke Park (Dublin home games, Eastern Final, then 4 semis & 2 finals)
- All Ireland Final Day becomes All Ireland Final Weekend (all the additional sponsorship/promotion/tourism you can generate off that)
- Format can be easily replicated at minor. More young players get chance to win something / play at Croker.
- Retains club April and club access to players from start of August (earlier if knocked out) to end October.
Disadvantages
There will be heavy defeats in early round. But this is unavoidable/natural in any competition structure.
I can't see many problems with it honestly." I think it is very good. It'd be exciting and easily scheduled."
Did I miss something ? - this is a repackaging of Eugene McGee's 4x8 - with a few marginal changes to the drab non-Ulster regions; a few bells and whistles, like Prov Final 8 get two chances; and the addition of the POSe Cup.
I prefer my '2 + 6' - Have a Prov Champs Playoff round - 2 winners to KO Rd 4 (AI QFs), 2 losers to 12-team KO Rd 3 - 4 Prov Final losers to 20-team KO Rd 2, and all 24 others to Rd 1 (8x3 team groups, 2 advance from each).
Dead rubbers are impossible in 3-team groups, if the loser in the 1st group match plays again in the 3rd (when 2 of 3 advance).
After you get to Prov Final 8 and 1st Qual Rd 24 - all need 6 wins for AI - via Front Door, Back Door or any combo of the two.
It's so simple - it actually works !"]There's a lot to be said for straight knockout with just having the early stages regionalised.
Look if I were running things I'd combine league and championship.
Div 1 North, div 1 South
Div 2 North, div 2 South
Single round robin in each section
Top 2 from each division 1 directly into quarterfinals
3-5 from each division 1 into a playoff round
6 and 7 from each division 1 into a relegation playoff
8th from each division 1 automatically relegated
1st from each division 2 into division 2 semifinals
2 and 3 from each division 2 into quarterfinals
Semifinalists get promoted
Division 2 champion gets a place in AI quarterfinals
Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 4329 - 27/04/2018 21:06:43
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Lads we've all come up with different championship format and to be honest I wouldn't mind any of them as we need change but can any of ye see the GAA actually changing the provincials ? and would the the provincial councils actually allow it? As if they did they'd be like the turkey voting for Christmas.
KingdomBoy1 (Kerry) - Posts: 14092 - 27/04/2018 21:15:50
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Replying To KingdomBoy1: "Lads we've all come up with different championship format and to be honest I wouldn't mind any of them as we need change but can any of ye see the GAA actually changing the provincials ? and would the the provincial councils actually allow it? As if they did they'd be like the turkey voting for Christmas." Realistically not in the near term
Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 4329 - 27/04/2018 21:34:23
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Merge NFL with AIC (as Provs played separately).
Split existing NFL divisions into two halves.
Combine one half from each div (A1, A2, A3, A4) to form 16-team Group A; and assign the other halves (B1, B2, B3, B4) to 16-team Group B.
Each team in Group A plays a 'handicapped' 12 of 16 Group B teams once (3 of 4 divs only).
All 'Divs 1 v 4' pairings are avoided (too one sided) as well as those 'Divs 2 v 3' (reduces game count).
After a 12-match regular season by all 32 teams, the Top 6 in Group A form one half of the AI KO Draw: 'non repeat' QFs = 1st in A v (4th or 5th in A) and 2nd in A v (3rd or 6th in A).
The 'A QF' winners then meet in one AI SF.
With Group B playing out a similar KO half of the AIC draw - the AI Final is an 'A v B' Fnal, the only repeat pairing (or unexpectedly, none at all).
If you wish, 7th to 10th (or 7th to 14th) in each group could also form the POSe Cup KO QFs (or KO Last 16), leading to an AvB Final. In theory, the 13th-ranked county should win this Tier 2 AIC.
Groups reset for the following year - with current year 'even' placed teams only (2nd, 4th, 6th etc) switching groups (1st 4 avoids 4th 4; 2nd 4 avoids 3rd 4).
omahant (USA) - Posts: 2849 - 27/04/2018 21:34:43
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Replying To Whammo86: " Replying To omahant: "[quote=Whammo86: "[quote=no.14: "Gaelic sports are inherently unfair, primarily due to population distribution. But that's sport, most are unfair in some aspect.
The best you can do is try to even the playing field. Gaelic sports is about championship, we all know and love that. But it's hard to think of any championship as completely lopsided as the current Provincial-to-All Ireland football structure.
If Carlow beat Louth they're still 2 games from a Leinster final. They have to win 7 games to win an AI. Roscommon win 1 game and they're straight into a Connaught final (5 games to win AI). This is not right. There are enough disadvantages in our games without the competition structure adding further disadvantages. Success breeds success, interest and participation - it's not fair that some teams start so much closer to success every year than others.
This brings me to the point of this post.
Keep the provincial championships, but play them instead of the early-year Dr.McKenna type cup competitions that nobody cares about. College teams should not participate in these.
The All Ireland competition should remain regional in early stages - local rivalries are great! - but do it roughly geographically instead of by province - 8 teams in each region.
Northern Championship - Donegal, Derry, Antrim, Down, Armagh, Monaghan, Fermanagh, Tyrone
Western Championship - Mayo, Galway, Sligo, Cavan, Roscommon, Longford, Leitrim, London/NY
Eastern Championship - Louth, Meath, Dublin, Wicklow, Laois, Offaly, Kildare, Westmeath
Southern Championship - Wexford, Waterford, Cork, Kerry, Clare, Tipp, Limerick, Carlow
- Regional ch'ships start at QF stage. Draw seeded based on league position that year. Top 4 seeds drawn against bottom 4. Lower seeded teams have home advantage.
- 4 Winners progress to regional semi finals & final. Winner & Runner Up of final progress to All Ireland Quarter Finals. Regional winners have AI QF home advantage. Semis in Croker and final obviously.
- The 4 losers of each region QFs go into the Paidi O'Se Cup. Open draw of 16 teams, knockout. Semis and final played in Croke Park - final on the Saturday eve of All Ireland weekend. Competition to get equal promotion and coverage as All Ireland. Winning squad gets large cash/incentive prize (maybe play AI winners abroad on holiday).
- Ch'ships are run off 13 weeks from start of May. 2 weeks to prepare after club April, then max 6 games in 11 weeks. Not unreasonable at all, & crucially it's the same criteria for all teams.
Advantages
- All teams get chance to win All Ireland every year
- All teams get still get minimum 2 ch'ship games, max of 6. All must play 6 to win AI, or 5 to win the P.OSe.
- Lower seeded teams get a big home game every year (help improve interest, participation, sponsorship, atmosphere)
- Avoids group format & meaningless games - no team can lose 2 games and still win something.
- Still getting plenty big games in Croke Park (Dublin home games, Eastern Final, then 4 semis & 2 finals)
- All Ireland Final Day becomes All Ireland Final Weekend (all the additional sponsorship/promotion/tourism you can generate off that)
- Format can be easily replicated at minor. More young players get chance to win something / play at Croker.
- Retains club April and club access to players from start of August (earlier if knocked out) to end October.
Disadvantages
There will be heavy defeats in early round. But this is unavoidable/natural in any competition structure.
I can't see many problems with it honestly." I think it is very good. It'd be exciting and easily scheduled."
Did I miss something ? - this is a repackaging of Eugene McGee's 4x8 - with a few marginal changes to the drab non-Ulster regions; a few bells and whistles, like Prov Final 8 get two chances; and the addition of the POSe Cup.
I prefer my '2 + 6' - Have a Prov Champs Playoff round - 2 winners to KO Rd 4 (AI QFs), 2 losers to 12-team KO Rd 3 - 4 Prov Final losers to 20-team KO Rd 2, and all 24 others to Rd 1 (8x3 team groups, 2 advance from each).
Dead rubbers are impossible in 3-team groups, if the loser in the 1st group match plays again in the 3rd (when 2 of 3 advance).
After you get to Prov Final 8 and 1st Qual Rd 24 - all need 6 wins for AI - via Front Door, Back Door or any combo of the two.
It's so simple - it actually works !"]There's a lot to be said for straight knockout with just having the early stages regionalised.
Look if I were running things I'd combine league and championship.
Div 1 North, div 1 South
Div 2 North, div 2 South
Single round robin in each section
Top 2 from each division 1 directly into quarterfinals
3-5 from each division 1 into a playoff round
6 and 7 from each division 1 into a relegation playoff
8th from each division 1 automatically relegated
1st from each division 2 into division 2 semifinals
2 and 3 from each division 2 into quarterfinals
Semifinalists get promoted
Division 2 champion gets a place in AI quarterfinals"]I like that - this is more you !
omahant (USA) - Posts: 2849 - 27/04/2018 21:55:47
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Replying To Whammo86: "Realistically not in the near term" I agree - but we could make progress via the Front Door to the AI Last 8 more modest (2 berths, after Champs playoff); with 6 berths coming through the equitable/national Back Door.
Granted, while Ulster remains harder to win and the Champ would need a playoff win now as well to get through the narrower Front Door - all 24 non-Finalists need to get through an equal 6 rounds to claim Sam, the same as those in the Prov SF 16.
It bridges Donegal's or Carlow's unfair position with that of Roscommon's.
Cork and Kerry's birth right to the Last 12 would be gone - Muns Final loser to Last 24 and winner guaranteed Last 14 assuming Champs Playoff loss.
What would the Prov Councils possibly have against this - we'd miss the imbalance ?
omahant (USA) - Posts: 2849 - 27/04/2018 22:25:57
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Replying To no.14: "Gaelic sports are inherently unfair, primarily due to population distribution. But that's sport, most are unfair in some aspect.
The best you can do is try to even the playing field. Gaelic sports is about championship, we all know and love that. But it's hard to think of any championship as completely lopsided as the current Provincial-to-All Ireland football structure.
If Carlow beat Louth they're still 2 games from a Leinster final. They have to win 7 games to win an AI. Roscommon win 1 game and they're straight into a Connaught final (5 games to win AI). This is not right. There are enough disadvantages in our games without the competition structure adding further disadvantages. Success breeds success, interest and participation - it's not fair that some teams start so much closer to success every year than others.
This brings me to the point of this post.
Keep the provincial championships, but play them instead of the early-year Dr.McKenna type cup competitions that nobody cares about. College teams should not participate in these.
The All Ireland competition should remain regional in early stages - local rivalries are great! - but do it roughly geographically instead of by province - 8 teams in each region.
Northern Championship - Donegal, Derry, Antrim, Down, Armagh, Monaghan, Fermanagh, Tyrone
Western Championship - Mayo, Galway, Sligo, Cavan, Roscommon, Longford, Leitrim, London/NY
Eastern Championship - Louth, Meath, Dublin, Wicklow, Laois, Offaly, Kildare, Westmeath
Southern Championship - Wexford, Waterford, Cork, Kerry, Clare, Tipp, Limerick, Carlow
- Regional ch'ships start at QF stage. Draw seeded based on league position that year. Top 4 seeds drawn against bottom 4. Lower seeded teams have home advantage.
- 4 Winners progress to regional semi finals & final. Winner & Runner Up of final progress to All Ireland Quarter Finals. Regional winners have AI QF home advantage. Semis in Croker and final obviously.
- The 4 losers of each region QFs go into the Paidi O'Se Cup. Open draw of 16 teams, knockout. Semis and final played in Croke Park - final on the Saturday eve of All Ireland weekend. Competition to get equal promotion and coverage as All Ireland. Winning squad gets large cash/incentive prize (maybe play AI winners abroad on holiday).
- Ch'ships are run off 13 weeks from start of May. 2 weeks to prepare after club April, then max 6 games in 11 weeks. Not unreasonable at all, & crucially it's the same criteria for all teams.
Advantages
- All teams get chance to win All Ireland every year
- All teams get still get minimum 2 ch'ship games, max of 6. All must play 6 to win AI, or 5 to win the P.OSe.
- Lower seeded teams get a big home game every year (help improve interest, participation, sponsorship, atmosphere)
- Avoids group format & meaningless games - no team can lose 2 games and still win something.
- Still getting plenty big games in Croke Park (Dublin home games, Eastern Final, then 4 semis & 2 finals)
- All Ireland Final Day becomes All Ireland Final Weekend (all the additional sponsorship/promotion/tourism you can generate off that)
- Format can be easily replicated at minor. More young players get chance to win something / play at Croker.
- Retains club April and club access to players from start of August (earlier if knocked out) to end October.
Disadvantages
There will be heavy defeats in early round. But this is unavoidable/natural in any competition structure.
I can't see many problems with it honestly." Sounds good to me. I've always liked the League format better than the Championship format for the obvious reasons of fairness and imbalance and competitive matches. Each Province has a different amount of counties which is one glaring problem in regards to equality of effort required to get deep into the playoffs. In Hurling I love the Munster Final but other than that I feel the Provincial way is antiquated.
Trump2020 (Galway) - Posts: 2243 - 27/04/2018 23:36:15
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To advance one round, a team needs to win a Prov SF, or Qual Rd 1 instead; and a Prov Final or Rd 2 instead; and a Champs Playoff or Rd 3 instead; then must win AI QF, SF, F (successful advancement from six rds).
Open Question - Can we now overlook the fact that certain Muns/Conn teams start at the Prov SF while certain Lein/Uls teams need to win twice to get there ? I think we can for the point made before this question ! Agreed ?
omahant (USA) - Posts: 2849 - 28/04/2018 03:38:06
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Why so many threads on the same topic?
neverright (Roscommon) - Posts: 1648 - 28/04/2018 19:57:48
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Replying To neverright: "Why so many threads on the same topic?" Because the likes of Laois might win their first 2 championship games this summer ( v Wexford and v Westmeath ) , lose game 3 to Kildare , and enter Round 2 of the qualifiers. Roscommon are already in Round 2 , and 1 win v Division 4 opposition puts them into Round 4. I'd also be really angry if I was on the Galway Mayo side of the draw in Connacht.
Malonemagic (Laois) - Posts: 800 - 28/04/2018 23:08:40
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Replying To Malonemagic: "Because the likes of Laois might win their first 2 championship games this summer ( v Wexford and v Westmeath ) , lose game 3 to Kildare , and enter Round 2 of the qualifiers. Roscommon are already in Round 2 , and 1 win v Division 4 opposition puts them into Round 4. I'd also be really angry if I was on the Galway Mayo side of the draw in Connacht." I'm lucky I'm not the angry type, 'cos I'm sure you meant lose game 3 to Louth/ Carlow OR Kildare.
supersub15 (Carlow) - Posts: 3022 - 29/04/2018 01:41:20
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Replying To neverright: "Why so many threads on the same topic?" Because of your ID name :)
omahant (USA) - Posts: 2849 - 29/04/2018 04:10:20
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Replying To Malonemagic: "Because the likes of Laois might win their first 2 championship games this summer ( v Wexford and v Westmeath ) , lose game 3 to Kildare , and enter Round 2 of the qualifiers. Roscommon are already in Round 2 , and 1 win v Division 4 opposition puts them into Round 4. I'd also be really angry if I was on the Galway Mayo side of the draw in Connacht." Under my '2 + 6' by contrast -
Laois after Kildare defeat to 24-team Rd 1;
Roscommon already in Rd 1; 1 win they go to Rd 2;
Galway/Mayo loser also to Rd 1.
I have Prov SF 16 (needing 6 wins for Sam), 8 losers to 24-team 1st Qual Rd (needing to get through an equal 6 rds).
I have Front Door progress more modest - it really comes down to the straight KO Qualifier pairings in Rds 2, 3 and the AI Series that follows.
Can you live with the fact that I also have wins against Wex and WMeath leading nowhere - I'm ok with it as I assume AIC proper starts in Prov SF 16 and 1st Rd Qual 8x3.
omahant (USA) - Posts: 2849 - 29/04/2018 04:28:58
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Replying To omahant: " Replying To Whammo86: "[quote=no.14: "Gaelic sports are inherently unfair, primarily due to population distribution. But that's sport, most are unfair in some aspect.
The best you can do is try to even the playing field. Gaelic sports is about championship, we all know and love that. But it's hard to think of any championship as completely lopsided as the current Provincial-to-All Ireland football structure.
If Carlow beat Louth they're still 2 games from a Leinster final. They have to win 7 games to win an AI. Roscommon win 1 game and they're straight into a Connaught final (5 games to win AI). This is not right. There are enough disadvantages in our games without the competition structure adding further disadvantages. Success breeds success, interest and participation - it's not fair that some teams start so much closer to success every year than others.
This brings me to the point of this post.
Keep the provincial championships, but play them instead of the early-year Dr.McKenna type cup competitions that nobody cares about. College teams should not participate in these.
The All Ireland competition should remain regional in early stages - local rivalries are great! - but do it roughly geographically instead of by province - 8 teams in each region.
Northern Championship - Donegal, Derry, Antrim, Down, Armagh, Monaghan, Fermanagh, Tyrone
Western Championship - Mayo, Galway, Sligo, Cavan, Roscommon, Longford, Leitrim, London/NY
Eastern Championship - Louth, Meath, Dublin, Wicklow, Laois, Offaly, Kildare, Westmeath
Southern Championship - Wexford, Waterford, Cork, Kerry, Clare, Tipp, Limerick, Carlow
- Regional ch'ships start at QF stage. Draw seeded based on league position that year. Top 4 seeds drawn against bottom 4. Lower seeded teams have home advantage.
- 4 Winners progress to regional semi finals & final. Winner & Runner Up of final progress to All Ireland Quarter Finals. Regional winners have AI QF home advantage. Semis in Croker and final obviously.
- The 4 losers of each region QFs go into the Paidi O'Se Cup. Open draw of 16 teams, knockout. Semis and final played in Croke Park - final on the Saturday eve of All Ireland weekend. Competition to get equal promotion and coverage as All Ireland. Winning squad gets large cash/incentive prize (maybe play AI winners abroad on holiday).
- Ch'ships are run off 13 weeks from start of May. 2 weeks to prepare after club April, then max 6 games in 11 weeks. Not unreasonable at all, & crucially it's the same criteria for all teams.
Advantages
- All teams get chance to win All Ireland every year
- All teams get still get minimum 2 ch'ship games, max of 6. All must play 6 to win AI, or 5 to win the P.OSe.
- Lower seeded teams get a big home game every year (help improve interest, participation, sponsorship, atmosphere)
- Avoids group format & meaningless games - no team can lose 2 games and still win something.
- Still getting plenty big games in Croke Park (Dublin home games, Eastern Final, then 4 semis & 2 finals)
- All Ireland Final Day becomes All Ireland Final Weekend (all the additional sponsorship/promotion/tourism you can generate off that)
- Format can be easily replicated at minor. More young players get chance to win something / play at Croker.
- Retains club April and club access to players from start of August (earlier if knocked out) to end October.
Disadvantages
There will be heavy defeats in early round. But this is unavoidable/natural in any competition structure.
I can't see many problems with it honestly." I think it is very good. It'd be exciting and easily scheduled."
Did I miss something ? - this is a repackaging of Eugene McGee's 4x8 - with a few marginal changes to the drab non-Ulster regions; a few bells and whistles, like Prov Final 8 get two chances; and the addition of the POSe Cup.
I prefer my '2 + 6' - Have a Prov Champs Playoff round - 2 winners to KO Rd 4 (AI QFs), 2 losers to 12-team KO Rd 3 - 4 Prov Final losers to 20-team KO Rd 2, and all 24 others to Rd 1 (8x3 team groups, 2 advance from each).
Dead rubbers are impossible in 3-team groups, if the loser in the 1st group match plays again in the 3rd (when 2 of 3 advance).
After you get to Prov Final 8 and 1st Qual Rd 24 - all need 6 wins for AI - via Front Door, Back Door or any combo of the two.
It's so simple - it actually works !"]Very well and thought out post. And it actually works
royaldunne (Meath) - Posts: 19449 - 29/04/2018 10:55:18
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Why not a fair and completely open straight knock out FA cup style championship!
32 -16 - 8 - 4 - final... Forget qualifiers/super 8s/champions league etc..
Straight knock out, intense meaningful games with realistic opportunities for weaker teams to progress to Croke Park Quarter Finals!! Keep league and make even provincial competitions but finish season off with this championship!!
I've been advocating this for years but never gains traction..
81DLSAM (Donegal) - Posts: 281 - 29/04/2018 13:43:00
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