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I have 2 leagues (of 16) and 3 AICs (of 8,12,8 with 4 out). Tier 1 league straddles 2 AICs (8 to Sam & 8 to Shield). Tier 2 league straddles 2 AICs (4 to Shield & 8 to Plate). Tier 2 league top 2 are automatically promoted (teams 17,18 in my prior post, via Shield QF byes); while 19,20 are in promotion playoffs (aka as Shield PQFs) away to 12,11, respectively. While the AIC Plate (3rd grade) champ is "not promoted", all 8 Plate participants (and bottom 4) are eligible for the AIC Shield (2nd grade) the following year. I think there is plenty of scope for teams to find their own level - AICs being 'tighter competitions' & leagues more 'mixed quality', with weaker teams exposure to stronger opposition 'hopefully' improving performance from that experience over time. omahant (USA) - Posts: 3280 - 03/06/2025 15:22:11 2614598 Link 0 |
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@Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 4557 - 02/06/2025 omahant (USA) - Posts: 3280 - 03/06/2025 15:35:09 2614608 Link 0 |
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The Conference League winner qualifies for the Europa League. It would be like a Tier 3 Cup winner qualifying for the Tailteann Cup.
legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 8894 - 03/06/2025 15:52:27 2614614 Link 0 |
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But Chelsea earned a Champions League berth via the Premier League - so Chelsea were not playing for a Europa League 'promotion' via the Conference League. Effectively, the latter was a stand alone competition akin to my AIC Plate. As an aside, Chelsea should be ashamed of themselves - for winning the Conf L, beating all 6 'league phase' opponents along the way and even for participating in it. The 'Big 5' leagues should be ineligible for the Conf L. omahant (USA) - Posts: 3280 - 03/06/2025 17:10:09 2614644 Link 0 |
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For 12 of Chelsea's fixtures ahead of the final, Chelsea weren't guaranteed qualification for European football in any form. We have to get a bit real here too. The prize for winning the Europa League is qualifying for a competition with a 60 year history and that retains a high level of prestige. None of that applies to what you are describing. I also think it bizarre that examples used from continental cup competitions in professional sport are thought of as useful for how to run a National championship in an amateur sport where the county teams are far from guaranteed their pick of players. Are players going to want to stick around for that 3rd tier you described at the expense of going back to their clubs or going to play in America for the Summer. Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 4563 - 03/06/2025 17:19:14 2614645 Link 0 |
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The continental cup competitions are a tiered qualification format. So too are the All Ireland 16 and Tailteann 16. All Ireland qualification is a big prize for the Tailteann winner. The old Tommy Murphy Cup didn't have that component. If the following provincial semi finals applied in next year's format: Galway v Roscommon, Armagh v Tyrone, Meath v Dublin and Kerry v Cork - is the reward of home advantage in Round 1 the new ingredient that will add to these encounters? I'm not convinced but time will tell I suppose. I wouldn't see the current provincial championships as a big attraction for GAA+ subscriptions. There are some big clashes but when Roscommon, Tyrone, Dublin and Cork are already qualified - there is no major consequence for defeat. legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 8894 - 03/06/2025 22:47:48 2614697 Link 0 |
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We have to get a bit real here too AGAIN. The prize for winning A TOP 8 BERTH is qualifying for a competition with a LONGER 141 year history and that ALSO retains a high level of prestige. ALSO 2-4 ARE PROMOTED FROM MY SHIELD. I also think it is NOT bizarre that examples used from continental cup competitions in professional sport are thought of as useful for how to run a National championship in an amateur sport where the county teams are far from guaranteed their pick of players. PLAYERS WOULD NEED TO DECIDE IF THEY ARE going to want to stick around for that 3rd tier AIC at the expense of going back to their clubs or going to play in America for the Summer. THIS IS NO DIFFERENT FROM SEEING IF THEY WILL STICK AROUND FOR FUTURE EDITIONS OF THE CURRENT TAILTEANN CUP. THEY COULD GO TO THE AFL FOR A FEW YEARS INSTEAD IF AN OPPORTUNITY ARISES. NOTE: While it's fair to say match intensity absorbed by professionals should not by the same for amateurs, it's a bit daft to say one should be prohibited from adopting their competition structure because of that intensity. Apples and Oranges. Based on your logic, UEFA should never have adopted the Swiss model for its flagship UCL, as the Swiss model has original roots in the unrelated game of Chess (AND actually applied quite differently). Bizarre or irrelevant? omahant (USA) - Posts: 3280 - 04/06/2025 00:27:43 2614715 Link 0 |
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Well UEFA actually don't have a Swiss Model for the Champions League, they call it that but it isn't. A Swiss Model in Chess has subsequent rounds get drawn based on results in previous rounds so that people are playing others with similar records to them. In chess tournaments people who have no chance of winning the competition continue in it playing people roughly around their performance level. So it would be bizarre if UEFA styled their competitions in a manner similar to chess but they actually haven't, not really at all. Their use of Swiss system is just a misnomer.
Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 4563 - 04/06/2025 09:36:48 2614744 Link 0 |
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UEFA are using a variant of the Swiss system! If the GAA ever wanted to reduce the the Allianz league to six rounds for more championship games but retain 4 divisions of 8 - everyone could play 1 team from 4 different seeded brackets. After 4 games - top 4 into division semi finals. Bottom 4 into relegation playoff - 2 losers relegated. legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 8894 - 04/06/2025 12:52:14 2614805 Link 0 |
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To ease fixture logjam, I wouldn't mind that - could have 2 groups of 4 with teams playing crossover before SF KO & Relegation Finals. Each team plays 5-6 games. omahant (USA) - Posts: 3280 - 04/06/2025 13:30:54 2614828 Link 0 |
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Do you have an opinion on UCL's randomisation of Swiss model fixtures? In my AILC, I used "groups", not in the traditional sense, but for fixture reduction. I prefer to tell the match schedule more easily at a glance with groups - in the UCL, you'd need to see each team's "list". For fixtures, I'd rather UCL '4 groups of 9' to generate the 8 fixtures, before compiling the 36 team table. Byes based on this table, or 4 top 2s? Either way. omahant (USA) - Posts: 3280 - 04/06/2025 13:50:58 2614842 Link 0 |
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All I'll say is that Leitrim and Cavan had good vision in using a Swiss system type approach. The Kerry Senior Club Championship is to have 10 teams in 1 group of 4 and 2 groups of 3. Very messy. Very, very messy.
legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 8894 - 04/06/2025 16:04:45 2614899 Link 0 |
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If you are rating teams on a single ladder it is better for fixtures to be more inter-mingled in the way the Champions League is implemented.
Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 4563 - 04/06/2025 17:29:23 2614917 Link 0 |
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Unlike group format or other systems in which all pairings are known from the beginning of the competition, in a Swiss system the match pairing for each round is done after the previous round has ended and depends on its results.
Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 4563 - 04/06/2025 17:31:24 2614918 Link 0 |
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Yes, I suppose - I did that crossover with my AILC schedule too.
omahant (USA) - Posts: 3280 - 05/06/2025 05:44:28 2614983 Link 0 |
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Hair splitting here - the "Swiss System" is linked to its pure Chess origin; but a "Swiss Model" can be tailor made, so it's a variant with Swiss System elements (like match reduction from a round robin).
omahant (USA) - Posts: 3280 - 05/06/2025 05:48:57 2614984 Link 0 |
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I like this as an idea for the All Ireland football championships. It gives such a level of flexibility into the structure. Provincial matches could double up as All Ireland group games; if you loose in the Ulster / Leinster 1/4 final; no issue; you get to play one another in the All Ireland groups and go from there. Provincial champions then given a 1/4 final spot to be joined by the next best 4 in the group. Another idea - we could play 6 matches each (3 each home and away) to get a final league table. The top 2 from each province could play a provincial final with the winners into the All Ireland 1/4 final; losers playing off against the next best 4 from the group phase. brianb (Kildare) - Posts: 452 - 05/06/2025 10:20:35 2615010 Link 0 |
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It's not hair splitting. The champions league is fundamentally not run like a chess tournament. Fixtures being decided by draws based on past performance and there not being a knockout round, it's chalk and cheese. Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 4563 - 05/06/2025 12:44:20 2615052 Link 0 |
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Once the term "Model" is used, it's variant territory - elements of "System" are used, while others are ignored. I guess you chose to dismiss what I wrote - I defend your right to do that. omahant (USA) - Posts: 3280 - 05/06/2025 14:45:40 2615114 Link 0 |
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Given the Prov KO imbalance, I gave no direct berths to Prov Champs in my AILC. Instead, to level the playing field for all teams, Champs earn match pts for 'intra-tier' Prov ties and compete for table position with the rest. I'd expect all 2025 Prov Champs to make a 'Sam Playoffs 8', although they could lose out - more jeopardy, please! Develop your 6-match idea a) two 16-team tiers, or one 32-team tier? b) how are 6 opponents chosen? Etc. omahant (USA) - Posts: 3280 - 05/06/2025 15:02:20 2615120 Link 0 |