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Replying To Manutd1993: "Like on 13th April there has been all ready been 15 teams knocked out off championship with most off them having to wait now for 3 or 4 weeks to play in Tailteann Cup most off the teams will lose between 8 to 10 players who will just go abroad for the summer months could you not start the Intermediate or Junior championship now with 8 teams in both competitions on a league basic that's 7 matches to improve & top teams make a final on All Ireland Day that will keep teams & players interested seems to be to many games from January to April & then no games from May to July for them that's 8 months without any football really for 15 teams knocked out till the league starts again in January how are a team meant to improve . Start the Senior All Ireland with whatever 12 to 16 teams in it straight after provincials and both finals with be on same weekend & will still be competitive games the whole way through the summer as promotion & relegation will be on the line till ever teams year is over!" Did you ever hear of a full shhtop, or a comma?
Pope_Benedict (Galway) - Posts: 4081 - 16/04/2025 09:49:22
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Replying To legendzxix: "While the "New Format 2026 All Ireland" is technically better that there is no dead rubber in Round 3, if you are explaining you are losing is what they say!
I think people would have been more on board with the scramble to make top 2 in the group. There is also more scope for guaranteeing home games.
While I disagree with lopsided provincial championships and provincial runners up being rewarded, faced with the current reality we are stuck with it, groups of 4 should be played out as follows:
Provincial winners at home to Seed 2 and Seed 3.
Provincial runners up at home to Seed 3 and Seed 4.
Seed 3 at home to Seed 4.
Seed 4 at home to Seed 1.
Round 1: Provincial winners v Seed 3 and Provincial runners up v Seed 4.
Round 2: Round 1 winners versus each other. Round 1 losers versus each other.
Round 3: At least one of the games will have two teams battling for top 2." You're giving the Provincial runners up easier home games than the winners?
Seanfanbocht (Roscommon) - Posts: 2251 - 16/04/2025 10:33:05
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Replying To legendzxix: "While I have entertained Whammo's all in qualifier idea, I'm more in favour of something like 15 or 16 counties (depending on Tailteann winner making a provincial final or not) playing off for the 7 or 8 league qualifier spots.
The provincial championships have no qualifying metric. An All Ireland playoff could set some standard.
Counties missing out on the playoffs could be more suited to a Tier 3 Cup. Winning the Tier 3 Cup should be rewarded with guarantee of an All Ireland playoff spot in the following year, and by default a place in the Tailteann at least.
You'd more or less be looking at the Tier 3 Cup winner and Division 4 winner upward being in the playoffs at the very least." The why I'd see it is that if 8 or 9 of 32/33 teams aren't involved then it's becoming a bit exclusionary for being exclusionary's sake.
Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 4478 - 16/04/2025 11:32:07
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Replying To GreenandRed: "Sure I know rightly Whammo that it's unreliastic to think that could happen in 2026. I don't expect teams like Antrim, Sligo and Wexford to be playing against Kerry or Dublin, like you say maybe Meath or Down first. But the backdoor championship only finished relatively recently. The lower ranked counties who had good runs in the back door couldn't sustain their level for long. If the GAA see the benefits they think they should help them improve their standards. The current season starts with the league but the All Ireland series doesn't really get going until the groups finish. I think there's scope for improving the standards bottom to top and also throw in more jeopardy. Naively!" Look it's all about a bit of balance and some trade offs.
In a lot systems the weak get weaker and the strong get stronger.
I guess you want to give teams opportunity to grow and build and progress.
I'd see working at it over a number of seasons at the right level against teams the right amount above you makes the most sense.
It's not without cost. The dream runs when they happen are good for exposure to the game.
I'd guess the Fermanagh and Wexford examples would indicate that the progress never stuck.
It's also probably the case that it's increasingly difficult for a weaker team to pull of a shock.
Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 4478 - 16/04/2025 11:37:09
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Replying To Pope_Benedict: "Did you ever hear of a full shhtop, or a comma?" You must be a teacher off for 2 weeks nothing to be at.
Manutd1993 (Longford) - Posts: 6 - 16/04/2025 11:41:26
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Replying To Seanfanbocht: "You're giving the Provincial runners up easier home games than the winners?" Yeah, provincial winners playing the tougher games at home. Ideally Ulster runners up and the best Seed 3 treating provincial winners to big games. Galway v Derry 2024 and Galway v Armagh 2024 for example.
legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 8716 - 16/04/2025 12:04:31
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Replying To Whammo86: "The why I'd see it is that if 8 or 9 of 32/33 teams aren't involved then it's becoming a bit exclusionary for being exclusionary's sake." I suppose it depends on which way you want to look at it! Should be nothing wrong with setting a qualification standard. If Tipperary or Waterford want to be in the playoffs or Tailteann - target winning Division 4 or the Tier 3 Cup.
legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 8716 - 16/04/2025 12:28:23
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Replying To Whammo86: "I wouldn't double up.
Suppose Armagh had a Preliminary round Ulster championship game with Fermanagh with the winner emerging to play Cavan, with neither Fermanagh nor Cavan in Armagh's tier, they'd be way better just focusing on their All Ireland fixtures.
I'd think Provincial derbies in a 12 team championship would be a big draw.
Say you'd 5 Ulster teams in their, 10 of your fixtures would be those derbies.
Give Provincial councils a share of gate receipts depending on participating teams and keep them happy." So in that Ulster scenario, would you prefer match pts for tier crossover as well? - say, all teams play two tier crossover games (in or out of Prov) along with Option Two (10 games intra tier)?
While this would have the benefit of capping all teams at 12, more non-Prov tier crossover blowouts should be expected.
On balance, I stick with what I have.
omahant (USA) - Posts: 3200 - 16/04/2025 15:08:10
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Replying To Whammo86: "I wouldn't double up.
Suppose Armagh had a Preliminary round Ulster championship game with Fermanagh with the winner emerging to play Cavan, with neither Fermanagh nor Cavan in Armagh's tier, they'd be way better just focusing on their All Ireland fixtures.
I'd think Provincial derbies in a 12 team championship would be a big draw.
Say you'd 5 Ulster teams in their, 10 of your fixtures would be those derbies.
Give Provincial councils a share of gate receipts depending on participating teams and keep them happy." So in addition to your 'Super 12', you'd play a separate Ulster SFC?
You don't see value in an all-important, all-Ulster Super 12 tie 'doubling' as an Ulster KO tie to limit game count in a tight calendar?
omahant (USA) - Posts: 3200 - 16/04/2025 16:05:32
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Replying To omahant: "So in that Ulster scenario, would you prefer match pts for tier crossover as well? - say, all teams play two tier crossover games (in or out of Prov) along with Option Two (10 games intra tier)?
While this would have the benefit of capping all teams at 12, more non-Prov tier crossover blowouts should be expected.
On balance, I stick with what I have." No I'd see it as a big reason as to why such a plan would be doomed to failure and it'd just be better for the National championship to be solely the National championship without the need for the Provincials.
You'll have local derbies, you'll have new rivalries come to the fore between close neighbours outside of a Provincial boundary.
We're a small country it's bizarre that we organise our national championship in this way.
Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 4478 - 16/04/2025 16:13:19
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Replying To omahant: "So in addition to your 'Super 12', you'd play a separate Ulster SFC?
You don't see value in an all-important, all-Ulster Super 12 tie 'doubling' as an Ulster KO tie to limit game count in a tight calendar?" I wouldn't play the Ulster championship at all. I think more time should be given back to the club game and that the current format doesn't help either grade of the game.
Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 4478 - 16/04/2025 16:14:44
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Replying To Whammo86: "I wouldn't play the Ulster championship at all. I think more time should be given back to the club game and that the current format doesn't help either grade of the game." If there was ever agreement to flip the season with provincials first, the provincial championships and the old pre season competitions could both be played out at the start. Ulster losing quarter finalists could enter the McKenna Cup semi finals. Something similar in other provinces. All counties would have at least 2 games before the league or a new national championship structure. Not saying this will ever happen. Just if Eamonn Fitzmaurice's and Michael Murphy's flip the season idea ever gained traction.
legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 8716 - 16/04/2025 17:50:11
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Replying To Whammo86: "No I'd see it as a big reason as to why such a plan would be doomed to failure and it'd just be better for the National championship to be solely the National championship without the need for the Provincials.
You'll have local derbies, you'll have new rivalries come to the fore between close neighbours outside of a Provincial boundary.
We're a small country it's bizarre that we organise our national championship in this way." Regardless of our differences of opinion, we agree on the "bizarre" point.
omahant (USA) - Posts: 3200 - 16/04/2025 19:06:34
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Replying To Whammo86: "No I'd see it as a big reason as to why such a plan would be doomed to failure and it'd just be better for the National championship to be solely the National championship without the need for the Provincials.
You'll have local derbies, you'll have new rivalries come to the fore between close neighbours outside of a Provincial boundary.
We're a small country it's bizarre that we organise our national championship in this way." The Provincial system comes from the horse and cart days and steam trains.
Would take a day or 2 to travel 100 miles back then.
Seanfanbocht (Roscommon) - Posts: 2251 - 16/04/2025 22:21:46
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Replying To Seanfanbocht: "The Provincial system comes from the horse and cart days and steam trains.
Would take a day or 2 to travel 100 miles back then." With the right setup I think many supporters still have a preference for not traveling too far. The Munster hurling championship is flying it!
Whammo has a concern for Sligo if Connacht had a group stage format. Similar to Offaly and Antrim who want to retain Leinster hurling status, Sligo would want to retain Connacht status. Setting a qualification standard makes a difference.
legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 8716 - 17/04/2025 07:15:54
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There'd be a lot to be said for having a much reduced National calendar and then giving other units, which face varying challenges and priorities, more control over their own games programs.
If there was an All Ireland club window in February.
All Ireland championship window of say 15 weeks in the roughly May to August time period then provincial councils should be allowed and able to make their own decisions around Provincial championships at club and county level that suit the needs of their members.
Decoupling Provincial championships from the All Ireland would facilitate that move.
The Ulster championship could be given more time to breathe if it got but in from their counties.
The Leinster championship maybe shouldn't be played or maybe it is straight knockout and can be played around club games being fixed in March and April.
Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 4478 - 17/04/2025 11:06:12
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Replying To legendzxix: "With the right setup I think many supporters still have a preference for not traveling too far. The Munster hurling championship is flying it!
Whammo has a concern for Sligo if Connacht had a group stage format. Similar to Offaly and Antrim who want to retain Leinster hurling status, Sligo would want to retain Connacht status. Setting a qualification standard makes a difference." My concern for a Connacht group stage All Ireland would be how does it have a sensible promotion and relegation scheme. Excluding 2 to run an extra couple of matches that are a bit superfluous seems odd to me also.
If Connacht wanted a group stage to groups of 3 moving to semifinals could make sense. Same in Munster.
Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 4478 - 17/04/2025 12:44:45
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Replying To Whammo86: "My concern for a Connacht group stage All Ireland would be how does it have a sensible promotion and relegation scheme. Excluding 2 to run an extra couple of matches that are a bit superfluous seems odd to me also.
If Connacht wanted a group stage to groups of 3 moving to semifinals could make sense. Same in Munster." Ok, let's say Connacht and Munster shared a Tier 2: Leitrim, Tipperary, London and Waterford.
The Connacht & Munster Tier 2 winner should be automatically promoted to their province with the lowest team relegated. If the Tier 2 runner up is from a different province to the winner, the Tier 2 winner and the lowest team from their province should contest a promotion/relegation playoff.
Example: Leitrim beat Tipperary in the Tier 2 final. Leitrim promoted. Sligo relegated. Tipperary take on Limerick in a promotion/relegation playoff.
Example 2: Leitrim beat London in the Tier 2 final. Leitrim automatically promoted. Sligo relegated. No promotion/relegation playoff as Tipperary and Waterford have not achieved the qualification standard.
legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 8716 - 17/04/2025 13:07:03
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I don't see how all of the various problems discussed in the thread aren't solved by moving back the old qualifier format with the caveat being that losers of Round 1 provincials enter Round 1 qualifiers. If Round 2 is a provincial final, the losers still enter Round 2 qualifier.
Ulster GAA has benefited from a competitive provincial championship both in terms of national success and attendances. Should we move away from this model without significantly reducing the fixture load or pricing model, the only outcome would be reduced interest in the product as a whole.
SurelyToGod (Donegal) - Posts: 452 - 17/04/2025 16:00:13
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Replying To legendzxix: "Ok, let's say Connacht and Munster shared a Tier 2: Leitrim, Tipperary, London and Waterford.
The Connacht & Munster Tier 2 winner should be automatically promoted to their province with the lowest team relegated. If the Tier 2 runner up is from a different province to the winner, the Tier 2 winner and the lowest team from their province should contest a promotion/relegation playoff.
Example: Leitrim beat Tipperary in the Tier 2 final. Leitrim promoted. Sligo relegated. Tipperary take on Limerick in a promotion/relegation playoff.
Example 2: Leitrim beat London in the Tier 2 final. Leitrim automatically promoted. Sligo relegated. No promotion/relegation playoff as Tipperary and Waterford have not achieved the qualification standard." It is really not far beyond the imagination to think of a situation where Leitrim, Limerick, London and Waterford are the 4 worst teams in the country and that Sligo could be significantly better than Tipp but Sligo would get relegated because Leitrim happened to be the least bad of the 4 terrible teams.
I don't know what there is to like about a structure like that.
Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 4478 - 17/04/2025 17:07:42
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