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Replying To Pikeman96: "Think we're talking about closely-linked but different things here. Particularly since you're concentrating mainly on Senior, and I'm not.
True that maybe only four clubs would be generally ranked as genuine contenders at the outset of each year for the senior title. But at the same outset of the year, I'd say there'd be nine, ten, eleven or even all twelve clubs who wouldn't believe they could put three or four wins together at some stage if things fell right for them. And with the current structure, if they did that at the right time, they'd be champions.
And I'd say this is even truer as you go down the grades. The gap from 1st and 2nd down to say 7th and 8th in Intermediate 'A' and Junior probably isn't as big as the same gap in Senior.
But even take title aspirations out of it, and just consider these two things instead:
Football team: "If we don't go well in the group stage, we'll be out of the championship".
Hurling team: "If we don't go well in the group stage, we'll still be in the championship anyway".
Is that not a safety net for the hurling???" I'm not arguing for the status quo by the way Pikeman, I'm very much against it.
Viking66 (Wexford) - Posts: 14978 - 12/02/2025 19:15:34
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Replying To Viking66: "Being realistic, how many clubs had genuine aspirations of winning the county title in their grade, especially in Senior and Intermediate? Half of them maybe? From talking to lads I know well in 4 different Senior clubs, they were of the opinion that if they stayed up they'd be happy with that. A Harriers man reckoned that if they could get to a Semi-final that would be great for the younger lads coming through, it might keep them around. He reckoned they had no chance of winning the title. A few lads I know in the Annes and Martins clubs were hopeful it might be their year, and the one lad from Oylegate I was talking to before last season reckoned they wouldn't come as close last year as the one before. I admit I wasn't talking to any Shels, Rapps, Ferns or Gorey men about the Championship, I presume Gorey would've liked to go back to back, but they were pretty poor in the games I went to that they were in. Any Shels lads I know are ultra competitive, so I assume they'd be giving it a good lash every year.
So I'm not sure most clubs were thinking they'd vote for the new format so they could win Senior after losing all their group games. Its surely unlikely." In the senior last year there was a massive gulf in class between teams that finished top 3 in their groups (Ourselves, Gorey, Ferns , Shels, Martins and Harriers) vs the bottom 3 in both. Which I think is why I still think it should be two tiered Senior A, top 2 get byes to SF, 3+4 go in to the QF vs top 2 from senior B similar to how it's done in Limerick.
Just looking at it now - in both groups there was a scoring difference of 38 and 39 points between 3rd and 4th. If it was tiered like that you'd nearly be guaranteed every game is in someway competitive in both groups. It definitely needs to be more cut throat coming towards the end of the group stages and in to the knock outs, whether that yields a higher standard of hurling or not I don't know.
OpenStandWall (Wexford) - Posts: 203 - 12/02/2025 22:21:55
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Replying To OpenStandWall: "In the senior last year there was a massive gulf in class between teams that finished top 3 in their groups (Ourselves, Gorey, Ferns , Shels, Martins and Harriers) vs the bottom 3 in both. Which I think is why I still think it should be two tiered Senior A, top 2 get byes to SF, 3+4 go in to the QF vs top 2 from senior B similar to how it's done in Limerick.
Just looking at it now - in both groups there was a scoring difference of 38 and 39 points between 3rd and 4th. If it was tiered like that you'd nearly be guaranteed every game is in someway competitive in both groups. It definitely needs to be more cut throat coming towards the end of the group stages and in to the knock outs, whether that yields a higher standard of hurling or not I don't know." The problem with the Limerick system is that maybe it helps perpetuate an elite. Because the top teams get better games all throughout the competition, their standard goes up. It's nearly always the same 4 teams in the semis up there the last good few years, NaP, Well, Doon and Kilmallock, with Monaleen trying to close the gap, and with a floater yoyoing between the divisions.
Viking66 (Wexford) - Posts: 14978 - 13/02/2025 06:20:29
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What I dislike about the Limerick system is that the teams ranked 7th and 8th after the group stage go through (i.e. the top two teams in Group B), while the teams ranked 5th and 6th go out (i.e. the bottom two in Group A).
If you're a mid-tier team (say somewhere between 5th and 8th overall), you're better off in Group B.
And not only that, but you're better off aiming for second place in Group B. Finish top of that group, and you'll move up to Group A the following year, where it's almost inevitable you'll struggle.
Mungret finished top of Group B unbeaten in 2023 - lost all five matches in Group A in 2024.
Kildimo-Pallaskenry finished top of Group B with four wins out of five in 2022 - lost all five matches in Group A in 2023.
Pikeman96 (Wexford) - Posts: 2720 - 13/02/2025 10:49:20
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As a "immigrant" to the county so to speak, I don't have the "which is more important, club or county" loyalties as most of you.
To me, our club does not exist to supply the county team. Yes it is great to see players from our club on county teams but I don't feel anybody feels that is the core focus.
What is the core focus? I believe that is individual dependent, but to me the core focus is on getting children active and involved and developing a core sense of value and pride. As they grow older, there is a natural tendency for the talented kids to drive on and the less talented ones to drop or find something else to do. And naturally the day arrives when the focus is on winning for any club. Why bother if that is not the focus?
But, every player should strive to be the best they can be with their talents and should practice, train and work on their game on and away from the field to improve. For some player, this will be captaining Wexford. For another, this will be making the Junior D or u14 team. If both players have given their all and gave their best, both are the same achievement for both.
But as a young boy growing up on the north side of Dublin, I would say to anybody here helping out in some way in a club to never underestimate your contribution to society and the community. I have known and seen children from deprived backgrounds finding a focus in their local club which kept them off the streets, out of trouble and instilled values which stand them in good stead to this day. There are people in every square mile of this country who are saved by the GAA and other sporting organisations and to me, that is worth more than any club member lifting the Liam McCarthy or Sam Maguire cup.
ExiledInWex (Dublin) - Posts: 1274 - 13/02/2025 13:20:57
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Replying To Pikeman96: "Another example, from about three years ago:
Chairman of the time suggested a system where the top team in each group would go straight to a semi-final, with the second and third-placed teams playing quarter-finals.
On the face of it, a good system. A genuine and tangible reward for finishing first in the group, and a means to make the battle for other positions more competitive.
Clubs were overwhelmingly against it, and I don't think it even got as far as a vote.
As clubs saw it, if they supported it, they'd be voting for reducing their own chances of making the play-offs (just three teams going through, instead of four). They didn't care that it was something to make the championships more competitive and better overall." That's not just GAA, thats society at large, me féinism is rampant and always has been.
The split season format needed a few tweaks but in terms of generating excitement and interest it was brilliant. Championships need jeopardy and that format had it in spades. It also gave proper dual clubs and players a fair go at it. It was also better prep for anyone thinking about playing inter county which has a very similar format.
I know the CB put it to a vote, that's democracy etc, but a lot better job could have put forward as to why it was better. Back to the same failed format last year with minimal interest, more dead rubber games and a drop in quality.
I think the CB would be best served by delivering a message of reality to all who care, that includes I would say the vast majority of clubs anyway, that we are chronic underachievers at hurling. We have only been in 2 finals in 48 years, 2 x semi finals in 18 years. If we are honest I'd say it's another 3 years minimum before we are truly competitive again at that level. So whatever we have been doing on the pitch we need to urgently review and that requires everyone pulling together.
Timbertony (Wexford) - Posts: 367 - 13/02/2025 13:48:40
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Replying To Timbertony: "That's not just GAA, thats society at large, me féinism is rampant and always has been.
The split season format needed a few tweaks but in terms of generating excitement and interest it was brilliant. Championships need jeopardy and that format had it in spades. It also gave proper dual clubs and players a fair go at it. It was also better prep for anyone thinking about playing inter county which has a very similar format.
I know the CB put it to a vote, that's democracy etc, but a lot better job could have put forward as to why it was better. Back to the same failed format last year with minimal interest, more dead rubber games and a drop in quality.
I think the CB would be best served by delivering a message of reality to all who care, that includes I would say the vast majority of clubs anyway, that we are chronic underachievers at hurling. We have only been in 2 finals in 48 years, 2 x semi finals in 18 years. If we are honest I'd say it's another 3 years minimum before we are truly competitive again at that level. So whatever we have been doing on the pitch we need to urgently review and that requires everyone pulling together." We have actually only been in 1 AI final in the last 46 years. We havent even won a League title in that time. And only won 4 Leinster titles. Those statistics have been presented at at least 2 CB meetings in the last 2 years, including by Adrian Fenlon in his presentation supporting the current system when it was adopted. The system works in Kilkenny because it means there are more games, so their club players are hurling more in games and training for those games, because there's no adult football taking place between those games. Which isn't the reality here.
Viking66 (Wexford) - Posts: 14978 - 13/02/2025 15:16:14
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Replying To Viking66: "We have actually only been in 1 AI final in the last 46 years. We havent even won a League title in that time. And only won 4 Leinster titles. Those statistics have been presented at at least 2 CB meetings in the last 2 years, including by Adrian Fenlon in his presentation supporting the current system when it was adopted. The system works in Kilkenny because it means there are more games, so their club players are hurling more in games and training for those games, because there's no adult football taking place between those games. Which isn't the reality here." KK aren't a good comparison for us. They have a winning culture and tradition we will never match. Clare and Limerick would be a better benchmark for us, they both hit lows we haven't got near yet either with strikes in Limerick and Clare were in a right mess off the pitch not too long ago either. What are they doing since that we aren't? In terms of the numbers of clubs, schools and playing numbers, we must be quite similar.
Timbertony (Wexford) - Posts: 367 - 13/02/2025 17:16:32
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FWIW, as much as I dislike the current club format, I don't think it's what's holding us back at inter-county level
What we need more than anything else is to develop consistently successful U20 teams (With a few star teams here and there) with a mix of players in terms of height (Not every player needs to be a skyscraper but you need a skyscraper here and there), speed, and then all players to be good technical hurlers, have good S&C work done and most importantly of all, to have dog-like mentalities
For me, the issues you see at county level are the same ones you see at club level. There is an inability to win dirty ball across all half-forward lines in Wexford IMO and there also seems to be no pronounced importance placed on S&C at clubs either
Fix those issues (Both in development squads and at club level) and things will start to change consistently for the better
ElGranSenor (Wexford) - Posts: 395 - 13/02/2025 17:30:11
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Replying To Timbertony: "KK aren't a good comparison for us. They have a winning culture and tradition we will never match. Clare and Limerick would be a better benchmark for us, they both hit lows we haven't got near yet either with strikes in Limerick and Clare were in a right mess off the pitch not too long ago either. What are they doing since that we aren't? In terms of the numbers of clubs, schools and playing numbers, we must be quite similar." They are pumping more money into Games Development than we are. They have county winter training for all age groups from u11 up to u17 in Clare for example. We started our u12 ASH programme last winter so it's benefits will take a while to be seen. Our u14s-u16s only have 1 pitch/collective session a week, most other counties have more, especially at u16. Clare have a slightly different approach to ourselves in that they try to get greater numbers into the system at younger age groups.
But the main bottom line is that we are only doing what we are doing now for the last 3 or 4 years. It will take time til we see the results of this work. Both Clare and Limerick started down the road we are on a good few years before us.
At minor last year while we were disappointing against Clare we beat Kilkenny and Cork well in Championship. So far this year we beat Limerick and lost to Cork in challenge games.
At u20 we reached successive Leinster finals in 22 and 23 which we lost very narrowly, although we were disappointing last year it has to be said.
Viking66 (Wexford) - Posts: 14978 - 13/02/2025 18:19:04
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Replying To Viking66: "They are pumping more money into Games Development than we are. They have county winter training for all age groups from u11 up to u17 in Clare for example. We started our u12 ASH programme last winter so it's benefits will take a while to be seen. Our u14s-u16s only have 1 pitch/collective session a week, most other counties have more, especially at u16. Clare have a slightly different approach to ourselves in that they try to get greater numbers into the system at younger age groups.
But the main bottom line is that we are only doing what we are doing now for the last 3 or 4 years. It will take time til we see the results of this work. Both Clare and Limerick started down the road we are on a good few years before us.
At minor last year while we were disappointing against Clare we beat Kilkenny and Cork well in Championship. So far this year we beat Limerick and lost to Cork in challenge games.
At u20 we reached successive Leinster finals in 22 and 23 which we lost very narrowly, although we were disappointing last year it has to be said." Living down in Limerick, I don't know the ins and outs of underage structure tbh either here at anything below minor.
You have to take the population of Limerick in to consideration think there's about 50k more people living in Limerick compared to Wexford, hurling in my view definitely seems to be the main sport in the city here now. Two biggest clubs in the City are Monaleen and NaP, both of who are uber successful at underage now and both have won AIs in intermediate and Senior in recent years, think the closest any of our clubs have come is two semi finals in both since about 2015 OTB and Rathnure. Ardscoil Ris in schools hurling have been in 4 schools All Ireland A finals since 2010. Think the last time a Wexford school was in one was 2009.
I said it a while back but in order for us to have been taken seriously as genuine contenders for the All Ireland at senior year on year for the the last 8-10 years, the u21 team from 2013-15 that won 3 Leinsters in a row probably needed to win an All Ireland at that grade, instead we ran into two juggernauts in both finals, from recollection the writing was on the wall with about 20 mins to go in both. I think 10 or 12 from the Limerick team that hammered us in 2015 have 4 all Ireland medals at least now.
In terms of the club championship itself ,there may be a big gap between the big 4 clubs down here and the rest but from what I've seen of Senior A and B down here there is definitely a better overall standard of hurling, from what I seen last year I'd be fairly confident in saying one if those clubs moved to Wexford they could easily win out senior.
Limerick were missing the vast majority of their championship panel last weekend compared to us, the level is still night and day comparing who they have to call upon vs us.
OpenStandWall (Wexford) - Posts: 203 - 14/02/2025 14:40:05
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Replying To Timbertony: "KK aren't a good comparison for us. They have a winning culture and tradition we will never match. Clare and Limerick would be a better benchmark for us, they both hit lows we haven't got near yet either with strikes in Limerick and Clare were in a right mess off the pitch not too long ago either. What are they doing since that we aren't? In terms of the numbers of clubs, schools and playing numbers, we must be quite similar." Also just to follow up on this, I remember listening to a podcast on off the ball which went into a bit detail as to how they began to redevelop their underage teams and all and seems similar enough as to what the CB are trying to do now at home, here's the link if anyone is interested;
https://youtu.be/Ff5ZLws3PZY
OpenStandWall (Wexford) - Posts: 203 - 14/02/2025 14:52:50
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Replying To OpenStandWall: "Living down in Limerick, I don't know the ins and outs of underage structure tbh either here at anything below minor.
You have to take the population of Limerick in to consideration think there's about 50k more people living in Limerick compared to Wexford, hurling in my view definitely seems to be the main sport in the city here now. Two biggest clubs in the City are Monaleen and NaP, both of who are uber successful at underage now and both have won AIs in intermediate and Senior in recent years, think the closest any of our clubs have come is two semi finals in both since about 2015 OTB and Rathnure. Ardscoil Ris in schools hurling have been in 4 schools All Ireland A finals since 2010. Think the last time a Wexford school was in one was 2009.
I said it a while back but in order for us to have been taken seriously as genuine contenders for the All Ireland at senior year on year for the the last 8-10 years, the u21 team from 2013-15 that won 3 Leinsters in a row probably needed to win an All Ireland at that grade, instead we ran into two juggernauts in both finals, from recollection the writing was on the wall with about 20 mins to go in both. I think 10 or 12 from the Limerick team that hammered us in 2015 have 4 all Ireland medals at least now.
In terms of the club championship itself ,there may be a big gap between the big 4 clubs down here and the rest but from what I've seen of Senior A and B down here there is definitely a better overall standard of hurling, from what I seen last year I'd be fairly confident in saying one if those clubs moved to Wexford they could easily win out senior.
Limerick were missing the vast majority of their championship panel last weekend compared to us, the level is still night and day comparing who they have to call upon vs us." As regards schools Ardscoil Ris have around half their team from Clare. They are the only Limerick school to make a final in recent years. They lost 3 of the 4 finals they appeared in since 2009 to St Kierans, who have appeared in all but 2 of the finals, 11 finals, since 2009. Kilkenny CBS have also appeared in 3 finals, the all Kilkenny final being in 2011. Kierans have won 9 of the 13 finals there have been since 2009. If Kierans played in Munster maybe our schools might have appeared in more finals.
As regards our clubs I wouldn't describe the current best 4 as a big 4, they haven't dominated our club championship over many years, they are only the best 4 clubs over the last year or 2. The standard of our club championship is definitely poorer in general than some other counties that I've watched games from, Clare, Limerick, Tipp, Cork and Kilkenny especially.
As regards genuinely contending for AIs every year we have only had 2 decades that that was the case, same as Offaly and maybe Galway, for us those were the 1950s and 1960s. Even at the start of 96 I wasn't expecting us to win the AI, although after the Leinster QF that year I started to believe.
Viking66 (Wexford) - Posts: 14978 - 14/02/2025 15:39:30
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Anyone in the Ferns area know if the Super 11s games are planned to go ahead with the rain etc? Thanks
goreyll (Wexford) - Posts: 139 - 14/02/2025 16:52:32
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Not sure if measuring the quality of schools by the number of Leinster Finals they have reached is that great a benchmark given they are up against a juggernaut in Kieran's who are basically Kilkenny Schools Combined
Comparing Peter's, Good Counsel and the like against Kilkenny CBS would be a fairer comparison
ElGranSenor (Wexford) - Posts: 395 - 14/02/2025 18:18:34
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I think we hurling carlow tonight, don't know where or what time
hunting (Wexford) - Posts: 1068 - 14/02/2025 19:20:59
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Got well beaten by Carlow
BacksAndForwards (Wexford) - Posts: 41 - 14/02/2025 19:52:51
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Jes must of been on very early
hunting (Wexford) - Posts: 1068 - 14/02/2025 20:31:21
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Replying To BacksAndForwards: "Got well beaten by Carlow" Who was playing for us?
Viking66 (Wexford) - Posts: 14978 - 14/02/2025 20:46:49
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From What I heard chin , Jack , reck .we Shifted 5 goals…all hopes coming into this season I had is disappearing
BacksAndForwards (Wexford) - Posts: 41 - 14/02/2025 21:39:53
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