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Replying To Eddie the Exile: "I actually think the two you mention were late to the party.
The progression to possession-based football starting from between the sticks began more with Cluxton and Dublin. Shorter, low risk kick-outs to retain the ball, serious detail on ball retention above all else in open play (see the 2018 final as a classic example), eschewing lower percentage shots as part of the game plan, slowing the game to a crawl in their own half at times before a burst of pace, and playing a specialist hand-passer at 11 (Kilkenny). All were core elements.
I'm not saying that's the way Dublin started out under Gavin but they certainly evolved to that style. It was a tactical innovation that gave them the capacity to beat all-comers, including an almost great Mayo team who in contrast thrived on chaos and uncertainty. The response of lesser panels to tighten up on defence and play cautiously also emerged from witnessing the hammerings handed out by Dublin et al. Not arguing it was the right response but it was a a factor at least in part.
There is no denying that changes are needed. The changes made have to address the real issues however, and in a more mechanistic fashion i.e. analyze, uncover the underlying cause of a problem, and deal with it as simply and elegantly as possible. It is concerning for example that the committee members over the weekend repeatedly mentioned the survey circulated in advance of the draft rules, and that the "top 5 concerns" were met- this was trumpeted as evidence of success. Having completed the survey myself, it was abundantly clear it was designed to give almost a pre-ordained outcome. For example, " would you agree that cynical play is a negative in the game" Eh, yes!
For sure, I applaud the initiative and the efforts of those involved, but please let's see a full exploration of the problems and not just an outcome that responds to a poorly designed survey." Cluxton changed the keepers were looking to kick out the ball. He was mixing it up going short or long and picking out players. A lot of keepers use to just hoof it down the middle.
But Cluxton wasn't a roving keeper like Beggan or Morgan going up the field ,unless it was to take a 45.
FoolsGold (Cavan) - Posts: 2837 - 22/10/2024 11:17:52
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Wonder if scrapping the palmed handpass would help and going back to fisted pass only.
Forward handpass is useful really it's the quickest way to exploit any overlaps in the defence.
Also regarding the advanced mark giving a free shot/advantage, this needs to happen to change culture. Currently we see barely any long balls into the 21 because you generally get nothing out of them. If you don't get the free shot nothing changes because if you miss its the same situation as if you never kicked it in or if you didn't win the ball. Need to give an incentive to both kick it in and win the ball as when you win it nearly guaranteed a score, means more teams will try to kick it more often. Think it's one of the few rules that encourage kicking.
systematic (Galway) - Posts: 119 - 22/10/2024 11:45:30
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Replying To sam2024: "What is your opinion on the following finals - 80, 81, 84, 88, 90, 94, 95, 97, 99, 02, 03, 11, 15.. just a few from 1980 on with similar scorelines." Ah you are conversing with a Walter Mitty that has more than likely never attended an All Ireland Final. A genius that dreams about being an umpire and being able to decide if a ball thirty foot up in the air and over the post woul have went over the bar or wide if the post was higher. A kindergarten child would have more brains. I don't reply to any of his nonsensesical ramblings any more. I agree totally with your sentiments. I also attended finals in the 70s that were foul ridden and unwatchable. Was at the Armagh/Galway final and enjoyed it immensely. To watch the various duals and the tactical battles was intriguing. Of course that would have been away above that Cavan lads pay scale. Have a feeling he just trys to repeat the muck that comes out of the mouth of a former south of Ireland county player who became a legendary pundit IN HIS OWN MIND. A clown that played in an era when the ball could be practically thrown in for a goal.Very little wrong with our game that a few tweaks wouldn't sort out. Also enjoy your year with Sam. Was a great achievement for McGeeny and the lads.
ORIELMAN85 (Monaghan) - Posts: 404 - 22/10/2024 12:45:40
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Replying To ORIELMAN85: "Ah you are conversing with a Walter Mitty that has more than likely never attended an All Ireland Final. A genius that dreams about being an umpire and being able to decide if a ball thirty foot up in the air and over the post woul have went over the bar or wide if the post was higher. A kindergarten child would have more brains. I don't reply to any of his nonsensesical ramblings any more. I agree totally with your sentiments. I also attended finals in the 70s that were foul ridden and unwatchable. Was at the Armagh/Galway final and enjoyed it immensely. To watch the various duals and the tactical battles was intriguing. Of course that would have been away above that Cavan lads pay scale. Have a feeling he just trys to repeat the muck that comes out of the mouth of a former south of Ireland county player who became a legendary pundit IN HIS OWN MIND. A clown that played in an era when the ball could be practically thrown in for a goal.Very little wrong with our game that a few tweaks wouldn't sort out. Also enjoy your year with Sam. Was a great achievement for McGeeny and the lads." Nobody agrees with you… even Jarlath Burns has seen the problem and is trying to rectify it… thank goodness he pays no heed to someone like you…
ForeverBlue2 (Cavan) - Posts: 3149 - 22/10/2024 13:18:48
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Replying To ForeverBlue2: "Nobody agrees with you… even Jarlath Burns has seen the problem and is trying to rectify it… thank goodness he pays no heed to someone like you…" Yes, the current Gaelic football games are a tough watch, and actually it's more entertaining watching on TV than going to them. Watching 15 players run forward with the ball going back, is not enjoyable. It is true that Mcguinness and Harte were the major exponents of this tripe, but the foundations came from the international rules/Aussie rules, where players moved up and back in unison, and Aussies employed goalkeeper as outfielder. No doubt McGuinness and Harte learned from that!!
Ryanteam (Cork) - Posts: 408 - 22/10/2024 16:36:08
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I definitely think the falling attendance at matches has a lot more than the quality of game most people who are interested will go to club matches and 2 be honest. There are lots who give out about football but actually don't even go to club matches or any football matches I've seen some poor soccer matches and there pro players , people constantly comparing hurling and football as well hurling is basically a free taking competition especially at club level most feee takers scoring 15-18 points a game so Is that good to watch ,???
Kickitout (Galway) - Posts: 960 - 22/10/2024 17:01:57
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Replying To Solo_Run: "Well done - spot on. I was going onto this thread to articulate my view on the problem with football thinking "am I the only one". Unfortunately I've becomes a club and county supporter only ( tribal really) - would hardly watch a match outside of that - why? Too boring, and lacking in skill - just a whole pile of running and throwing ( I wont say handpass) the ball around. I watch lots of hurling, even though I have no emotional stake in it.
So, problem is...what exactly?
Too defensive - Maybe / Maybe not. But even if so, what's the problem with that?
That must mean lack of scores? - Mmm, not too sure. I don't think scoring has changed that much over the years, definitely not significantly
So what is it really?
- Its possession football - ask most fans ( especially general sports fan ) - they say hurling is great, football actually looks awful. For much of it they just see players 'throwing' the ball over and back across the pitch - there is probably more physicality in soccer these days than there is in football. Very few 'contests'.
- You don't need scores to make a game exciting, you need action where you know the winner of a small contest can have a big impact. Thats why hurling is great. Rugby too, general play (not just scores) involves fans cheering and getting excited - football has too little of this.
What exasperates me is (A) the lack of a specific stated problem(s). We have vague aspirations / ideas to make game more exciting and (B) the refusal to deal properly with the root of this - the handpass. As long as the handpass remains the primary means of progressing play the game will remain the embarrassing spectacle it has become.
I have suggested my own solution, not saying its the right one ( handpass all day long, but you cant handpass forwards).... but open to changes which make the game a "contested" game, and to do that you need a more risk / reward game through more kicking, and where handpassing (ie. throwing) has limited benefit.
At least it attempts to deal with the ACTUAL issue ( possession football, with little skill ), and the underlying root cause of excessive handpassing.
The current proposals? Whatever? God forbid they'll look at the elephant in the room." If you type the words out in this forum (which I have done) you'll face a whole load of nay sayers who say it's impossible for a junior club ref to police any limitations to the handpass.
They don't count steps, pick up off the ground, pulling of the jersey etc - dont ask them to count the no of players kept to one side of a line and definitely dont ask them to count hand passes.
It should have been easy to remove handpassing and only have fist passing.
Not sure where your going with only allowing backwards hand passing. Most hand passing these days is backwards
tirawleybaron (Mayo) - Posts: 1197 - 22/10/2024 18:24:52
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Replying To ForeverBlue2: "Nobody agrees with you… even Jarlath Burns has seen the problem and is trying to rectify it… thank goodness he pays no heed to someone like you…" Money talks. People are voting with their feet and more will follow if rules aren't brought in to counter the ultra defensive approach.
"In 1892 the goal was changed to be worth five points. In 1896 the goal was reduced to three points, and has held that value ever since."
Rugby has changed the values on tries over the years. The number of points from a try increased to four in 1971 and five in 1992.
It will be a big change for the GAA to overhaul the scoring system of more than 125 years. Understandable that they might bring in the 2 pointers but not change the value on goals yet.
legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 8384 - 22/10/2024 19:14:55
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Replying To FoolsGold: "Cluxton changed the keepers were looking to kick out the ball. He was mixing it up going short or long and picking out players. A lot of keepers use to just hoof it down the middle.
But Cluxton wasn't a roving keeper like Beggan or Morgan going up the field ,unless it was to take a 45." Agreed he stays in pace but his innovations were the start of the possession based game.
Eddie the Exile (Monaghan) - Posts: 1122 - 22/10/2024 19:21:54
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Replying To Ryanteam: "Yes, the current Gaelic football games are a tough watch, and actually it's more entertaining watching on TV than going to them. Watching 15 players run forward with the ball going back, is not enjoyable. It is true that Mcguinness and Harte were the major exponents of this tripe, but the foundations came from the international rules/Aussie rules, where players moved up and back in unison, and Aussies employed goalkeeper as outfielder. No doubt McGuinness and Harte learned from that!!" Depends on what you want to see in a sport. Most sports are more entertaining to watch on TV than going to them. You can see more than just your pitchside view, animated commentators, analysts hyping up some of it, lack of hitting isn't as clear from TV compared to being at a game.
GreenandRed (Mayo) - Posts: 7701 - 22/10/2024 21:30:47
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Food for thought...Team A plays team B. Team scores 3 goals and 5 points (outside the arc) a total of 22pts. Team B scores 21 pts all inside the arc. Team A wins game with 8 scores against team B who scored 21 times.Thats a diff of 13 scores !! This cannot be good. In my opinion it will lead to teams pushing hard for goals and failing that then backpassing to outside the arc for the 2 pointer. I say leave the scores the way they are...goals will come anyway with 3 v3 inside.
banada (Sligo) - Posts: 50 - 24/10/2024 16:30:28
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Replying To banada: "Food for thought...Team A plays team B. Team scores 3 goals and 5 points (outside the arc) a total of 22pts. Team B scores 21 pts all inside the arc. Team A wins game with 8 scores against team B who scored 21 times.Thats a diff of 13 scores !! This cannot be good. In my opinion it will lead to teams pushing hard for goals and failing that then backpassing to outside the arc for the 2 pointer. I say leave the scores the way they are...goals will come anyway with 3 v3 inside." Aren't they dropping the 4 point goal ?
If that's gone the 2 pointer has to go too.
Seanfanbocht (Roscommon) - Posts: 2002 - 24/10/2024 17:06:35
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Replying To banada: "Food for thought...Team A plays team B. Team scores 3 goals and 5 points (outside the arc) a total of 22pts. Team B scores 21 pts all inside the arc. Team A wins game with 8 scores against team B who scored 21 times.Thats a diff of 13 scores !! This cannot be good. In my opinion it will lead to teams pushing hard for goals and failing that then backpassing to outside the arc for the 2 pointer. I say leave the scores the way they are...goals will come anyway with 3 v3 inside." Definitely agree leave score way they are no need for arc at all it's all lines on the pitch people keep giving out about football the way it's gone but that has actually nothing 2 do with rules it's coaches in this year all Ireland galway dropped off most of kickouts thst nothing do with rules just bad management the crowds are not going and it's not 2 do with quality of matches if u support ur club or county u go see them people love making excuses the quality is poor can't watch it same people will watch soccer maybe 1or 2 scores in 100 mins rugby also just big men with very little skill u never hear soccer or rugby or hurling people running down there own sport like so called football people , I'm sure Galway v Aintrim or Kilkenny v Westmeath in hurling are not edge Of seat stuff but they never run it down ,, it basically comes down to u either support ur club when playing and ur county or u don't
Kickitout (Galway) - Posts: 960 - 24/10/2024 17:57:37
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Replying To Seanfanbocht: "Aren't they dropping the 4 point goal ?
If that's gone the 2 pointer has to go too." You would think so. Team A scores a goal worth 3 points to take a 1 point lead. Team B responds with a 2 pointer.
The ideal ratio for "overs" for want of a better word is 3:2. A goal then is at least 6 in that ratio.
There is sound logic in wanting to reward and encourage long range scores in football but the reward has to be fair in respect of the current scoring system.
Some are suggesting just show scores in totals. They could but I think the number of goals in brackets should be displayed.
legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 8384 - 25/10/2024 09:23:54
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Replying To legendzxix: "You would think so. Team A scores a goal worth 3 points to take a 1 point lead. Team B responds with a 2 pointer.
The ideal ratio for "overs" for want of a better word is 3:2. A goal then is at least 6 in that ratio.
There is sound logic in wanting to reward and encourage long range scores in football but the reward has to be fair in respect of the current scoring system.
Some are suggesting just show scores in totals. They could but I think the number of goals in brackets should be displayed." Can the numpties not just leave the scoring system alone…?
ForeverBlue2 (Cavan) - Posts: 3149 - 25/10/2024 10:05:48
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Replying To GreenandRed: "O'Neiils will sell some of the interprovincial jersies used at the weekend within the next few weeks." Leinster, Munster, Connacht jerseys for sale now.
For some reason no Ulster jerseys on O'Neills but think I saw Ulster GAA selling them? Anyways, they look great.
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GreenandRed (Mayo) - Posts: 7701 - 26/10/2024 15:09:14
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