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Football Format Changes Discussion

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Replying To legendzxix:  "Yours isn't much different to the current status quo. Division 1 teams guaranteed a Last 16 place. The championship not really starting until the Last 16.
In the tiered provincial championship format, teams are looking at knockout as early as round 2 or round 3.
The ideal provincial group of 4 is a game every second weekend. Round 1 winners playing each other in Round 2. Round 1 losers are looking at avoiding elimination in Round 2. Round 3 is then most likely going to be 2nd v 3rd in a battle for second place."
It is different, if you can't see that I don't know what to say.

The league which is the competition with the teams at the same level is run off in the late spring/summer and feeds directly into championship with no fallback of provincials to come. You have to perform in the league to set you up for the knockouts, there will be 7 very competitive round of games at the right time of year.

It removes meaningless games like league finals and provincial games were Dublin or Kerry are running up a cricket score against a team nowhere near the level of even competing with them

They whole move away from a straight knockout all ireland and initial introduction of qualifiers was because teams wanted more games and not train all year for one championship game. Unfortunately its become games for the sake of games. A summer league into championship format guarantees a good amount of games for every team and will ensue 95% of games in the main competition are competitive. You could have some one sided games at the last 16 stage but I don't think there is any format which would completely eliminate that possibility.

The provincials can throw up great games in Ulster and Connaught but provinicials feeding into the All Ireland competition just doesnt work anymore.
I'm sure people have other suggestions/tweaks to introduce even more jeopardy to the 7 league rounds but in my opinion any new structure should incorporate a summer league into knockout type format.

Bdonegal1991 (Donegal) - Posts: 88 - 27/07/2024 22:32:10    2562031

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Replying To Bdonegal1991:  "Need to stop looking for a magic solution for the sake of tradition.
Keep it simple.

League played in April, May and June feeds directly into last 16 of Sam Maguire and Tailtean cups. Top of division 1 plays bottom of division 2 etc.
Last 16 through to final played in July and August.

At the minute the intercounty season starts in January but for 90% of counties nothing of any interest happens until at least June."
That sounds awful - a Div 2 team tanks to the basement with 7 losses and still gets an "automatic" Sam 1st Rd day out against Div 1 table toppers (possibly with 7 wins) - there should be some incentive to strive and achieve.
I suppose it's legal to unthink.

omahant (USA) - Posts: 2823 - 28/07/2024 03:03:46    2562058

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"....You have to perform in the league to set you up for the knockouts...."

What drivel - to the extent that table position provides any value for your "Rd of 16" seeding, your last post called for a QF Rd "open draw" negating any reason to achieve league match results for the AIC draw.

omahant (USA) - Posts: 2823 - 28/07/2024 03:16:12    2562059

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Fine tuning the tiered provincial championship;
TAILTEANN CUP FINAL
1) The two Provincial Tier 2 winners can earn promotion to their province. The two Tier 2 Provincial winners can also contest the Tailteann Cup final.
ALL-IRELAND PLAYOFFS
2) The two best third placed teams from league ranking could contest a Wildcard Playoff. The winner of the Wildcard playoff taking on New York in New York in an All-Ireland playoff.
3) The Ulster losing semi-finalists can contest an All-Ireland playoff.
4) The Leinster losing semi-finalists can contest an All-Ireland playoff.
ALL-IRELAND PRELIMINARY QUARTER-FINALS
The Tailteann winner can have home advantage against a provincial runner-up.
The other 3 provincial runners-up can have home advantage against an All-Ireland playoff winner.
ALL-IRELAND QUARTER-FINALS
4 provincial winners against 4 Pre-QF winners in Croke Park as usual.

legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 8161 - 28/07/2024 12:47:31    2562111

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Replying To omahant:  "That sounds awful - a Div 2 team tanks to the basement with 7 losses and still gets an "automatic" Sam 1st Rd day out against Div 1 table toppers (possibly with 7 wins) - there should be some incentive to strive and achieve.
I suppose it's legal to unthink."
I think it'd be that it's division 2 teams after the NFL is completed.

Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 4329 - 28/07/2024 13:28:15    2562116

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Replying To legendzxix:  "Fine tuning the tiered provincial championship;
TAILTEANN CUP FINAL
1) The two Provincial Tier 2 winners can earn promotion to their province. The two Tier 2 Provincial winners can also contest the Tailteann Cup final.
ALL-IRELAND PLAYOFFS
2) The two best third placed teams from league ranking could contest a Wildcard Playoff. The winner of the Wildcard playoff taking on New York in New York in an All-Ireland playoff.
3) The Ulster losing semi-finalists can contest an All-Ireland playoff.
4) The Leinster losing semi-finalists can contest an All-Ireland playoff.
ALL-IRELAND PRELIMINARY QUARTER-FINALS
The Tailteann winner can have home advantage against a provincial runner-up.
The other 3 provincial runners-up can have home advantage against an All-Ireland playoff winner.
ALL-IRELAND QUARTER-FINALS
4 provincial winners against 4 Pre-QF winners in Croke Park as usual."
Whatever about the Provincial formats you suggest and there are quite clear issues with them that you don't really acknowledge.

I don't really get why the 2nd tier and 3rd tier make sense either.

Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 4329 - 28/07/2024 13:30:22    2562118

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Replying To Bdonegal1991:  "It is different, if you can't see that I don't know what to say.

The league which is the competition with the teams at the same level is run off in the late spring/summer and feeds directly into championship with no fallback of provincials to come. You have to perform in the league to set you up for the knockouts, there will be 7 very competitive round of games at the right time of year.

It removes meaningless games like league finals and provincial games were Dublin or Kerry are running up a cricket score against a team nowhere near the level of even competing with them

They whole move away from a straight knockout all ireland and initial introduction of qualifiers was because teams wanted more games and not train all year for one championship game. Unfortunately its become games for the sake of games. A summer league into championship format guarantees a good amount of games for every team and will ensue 95% of games in the main competition are competitive. You could have some one sided games at the last 16 stage but I don't think there is any format which would completely eliminate that possibility.

The provincials can throw up great games in Ulster and Connaught but provinicials feeding into the All Ireland competition just doesnt work anymore.
I'm sure people have other suggestions/tweaks to introduce even more jeopardy to the 7 league rounds but in my opinion any new structure should incorporate a summer league into knockout type format."
I hear you.

I think if we could decouple the Provincial's from the championship there could be some really great potential All Ireland formats to choose from.

Yours would make sense, but there's other ones also like the divisions of 12, 10, 10 moving on to say 6 team playoffs in each tier.

All simpler and more sensible where competitive balance and integrity can be more robust.

Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 4329 - 28/07/2024 13:40:24    2562126

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Replying To omahant:  ""....You have to perform in the league to set you up for the knockouts...."

What drivel - to the extent that table position provides any value for your "Rd of 16" seeding, your last post called for a QF Rd "open draw" negating any reason to achieve league match results for the AIC draw."
Read again. Last 16 would be based off the league positioning. Then QF back to open draw.
You don't think it would provide incentive. Look at this year for example, Donegal and Armagh top of division 2 you don't think there be any value for a division 1 teams to avoid these two in first knockout round??

Bdonegal1991 (Donegal) - Posts: 88 - 28/07/2024 14:55:18    2562146

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Replying To Whammo86:  "I hear you.

I think if we could decouple the Provincial's from the championship there could be some really great potential All Ireland formats to choose from.

Yours would make sense, but there's other ones also like the divisions of 12, 10, 10 moving on to say 6 team playoffs in each tier.

All simpler and more sensible where competitive balance and integrity can be more robust."
Exactly decoupling provincials from knockout all Ireland championship is key.
Not against changing the league format tp facilitate to that.

Bdonegal1991 (Donegal) - Posts: 88 - 28/07/2024 14:57:43    2562147

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Replying To Whammo86:  "I think it'd be that it's division 2 teams after the NFL is completed."
Not necessarily. I think it makes sense for you to finish out at your level. If you top division 3 why not have the opportunity to go on and win the tailteann cup and have a proper good year, then a full off season to prepare for your crack at the higher level. What good is topping division 3 to get thumped by Dublin and have the wind taking put of your sails.

I understand it might result in a team having a really bad year as well, i.e. finishing bottom of division 2 then getting a themping in a last 16 game but look at that stage you have had 7 games against teams in your league and haven't performed to the level. No system is perfect there will always be hammerings and teams out of there depth. I think this system gives eveey team a fair crack at having a decent year then its up to themselves.

Bdonegal1991 (Donegal) - Posts: 88 - 28/07/2024 15:05:13    2562148

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Replying To Whammo86:  "Whatever about the Provincial formats you suggest and there are quite clear issues with them that you don't really acknowledge.

I don't really get why the 2nd tier and 3rd tier make sense either."
The Olympics have a qualifying standard. The Munster and Leinster hurling championships have a qualifying standard. The football provincial championships currently do not have a qualifying standard. There has to be a qualifying standard.

legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 8161 - 28/07/2024 15:19:16    2562150

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Replying To legendzxix:  "The Olympics have a qualifying standard. The Munster and Leinster hurling championships have a qualifying standard. The football provincial championships currently do not have a qualifying standard. There has to be a qualifying standard."
Again didn't actually address the point that I made. You rarely do.

The 2nd tier doesn't make sense.

Why's it important to win the national 2nd tier.

I really hate a 24 team top tier and 8 team 2nd tier.

Relegation doesn't make sense either.

Your qualifying standard doesn't make sense if say Sligo get into Connacht get beaten out the gate every season but never go down because Leitrim and London aren't ever as good as the best Munster team in the group.

You just have Munster teams yo-yoing up and down.

Same could easily happen with Ulster if the weakest Ulster team isn't at the races then there's no threat of relegation regardless of how badly the 8th best Ulster team gets.

The proposal is structurally so weak and I'll thought out that it'd be an absolute travesty if it ever came in.

Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 4329 - 28/07/2024 17:31:11    2562194

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Replying To Whammo86:  "Again didn't actually address the point that I made. You rarely do.

The 2nd tier doesn't make sense.

Why's it important to win the national 2nd tier.

I really hate a 24 team top tier and 8 team 2nd tier.

Relegation doesn't make sense either.

Your qualifying standard doesn't make sense if say Sligo get into Connacht get beaten out the gate every season but never go down because Leitrim and London aren't ever as good as the best Munster team in the group.

You just have Munster teams yo-yoing up and down.

Same could easily happen with Ulster if the weakest Ulster team isn't at the races then there's no threat of relegation regardless of how badly the 8th best Ulster team gets.

The proposal is structurally so weak and I'll thought out that it'd be an absolute travesty if it ever came in."
An option there is that when the Provincial Tier 2 finals are contested by teams from two different provinces, the runner-up would go forward to a promotion/relegation playoff. In your example, if Leitrim finished runner-up to a Munster team, Sligo and Leitrim would contest a promotion/relegation playoff. If any of the four provinces haven't a county in the top 2 of 4 in the respective Provincial Tier 2 groups, they are not achieving a reasonable standard.

legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 8161 - 28/07/2024 18:33:04    2562247

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Replying To Whammo86:  "Again didn't actually address the point that I made. You rarely do.

The 2nd tier doesn't make sense.

Why's it important to win the national 2nd tier.

I really hate a 24 team top tier and 8 team 2nd tier.

Relegation doesn't make sense either.

Your qualifying standard doesn't make sense if say Sligo get into Connacht get beaten out the gate every season but never go down because Leitrim and London aren't ever as good as the best Munster team in the group.

You just have Munster teams yo-yoing up and down.

Same could easily happen with Ulster if the weakest Ulster team isn't at the races then there's no threat of relegation regardless of how badly the 8th best Ulster team gets.

The proposal is structurally so weak and I'll thought out that it'd be an absolute travesty if it ever came in."
24/8 is an interesting reference:

Prov 24 (Uls/Lein QFs, Conn/Muns SFs); Rd1 Qual 8
Prov 12 (U/L SFs, C/M Fs); Rd2 Qual 16 (4+12)
Prov 6 (U/L Fs,C/M Champs Playoff); Rd3 Qual 14 (8+6)
Prov 3 byes (U,L& Playoff Champs); Rd4 Qual 10 (7+3)
AIC QFs
SFs
F

omahant (USA) - Posts: 2823 - 28/07/2024 19:10:24    2562277

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Replying To omahant:  "24/8 is an interesting reference:

Prov 24 (Uls/Lein QFs, Conn/Muns SFs); Rd1 Qual 8
Prov 12 (U/L SFs, C/M Fs); Rd2 Qual 16 (4+12)
Prov 6 (U/L Fs,C/M Champs Playoff); Rd3 Qual 14 (8+6)
Prov 3 byes (U,L& Playoff Champs); Rd4 Qual 10 (7+3)
AIC QFs
SFs
F"
Some stats from the tiered provincial group championship:
4 of 8 Munster and Connacht teams make their provincial final.
4 of 16 Leinster and Ulster teams make their provincial final.
1 of 8 Connacht and Munster teams is relegated.
1 of 16 Leinster and Ulster teams is relegated.
The balance: Connacht and Munster teams have twice as high a chance of making a provincial final but Leinster and Ulster teams have twice as high a chance of avoiding relegation. The advantages balance out depending on if you look at the glass half full or half empty! ;-)

legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 8161 - 28/07/2024 20:07:03    2562311

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Replying To legendzxix:  "Some stats from the tiered provincial group championship:
4 of 8 Munster and Connacht teams make their provincial final.
4 of 16 Leinster and Ulster teams make their provincial final.
1 of 8 Connacht and Munster teams is relegated.
1 of 16 Leinster and Ulster teams is relegated.
The balance: Connacht and Munster teams have twice as high a chance of making a provincial final but Leinster and Ulster teams have twice as high a chance of avoiding relegation. The advantages balance out depending on if you look at the glass half full or half empty! ;-)"
Yes, but why should Armagh consider its efforts/tough road to win an Ulster/AIC title being somehow offset by Antrim's better chance of avoiding the drop?
One glass half entry; one glass half full, but there are two glasses.

Quality is most important too - nothing wrong with Munster SHC having a disproportionate 3 teams advancing to the AIC Series, while Connacht & Ulster have none.

omahant (USA) - Posts: 2823 - 28/07/2024 20:44:30    2562330

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Replying To omahant:  "Yes, but why should Armagh consider its efforts/tough road to win an Ulster/AIC title being somehow offset by Antrim's better chance of avoiding the drop?
One glass half entry; one glass half full, but there are two glasses.

Quality is most important too - nothing wrong with Munster SHC having a disproportionate 3 teams advancing to the AIC Series, while Connacht & Ulster have none."
In the provincial group tiered structure, the Tailteann final can be a week after the Provincial Tier 2 finals. The Tailteann final can form part of a triple header in Croke Park with the Leinster semi-finals.
The 4 best provincial third placed teams of 6 based on league ranking can qualify for a wildcard round. The Tailteann winner, 2 wildcard winners and New York can join the four Leinster and Ulster losing semi-finalists in the All-Ireland playoff round. The 4 playoff winners can then go on to take on the provincial runners-up in the Pre-QFs.

legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 8161 - 29/07/2024 13:29:53    2562605

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