Replying To legendzxix:  "The Tailteann Cup has near perfect seeding. Four balanced groups from the draw yesterday. If the GAA are to make incremental changes to the current format, provincial winners only qualifying and Seed 2 to 4 on league placing would provide balanced All-Ireland groups as well.
The optics of 3 out of 4 qualifying from the groups looks soft. Lower tier hurling championships have to finish in the top 2 of 6! Four McDonagh counties could finish some year on 3 wins each. Two of the four would be eliminated!"

Replying To legendzxix:  "The Tailteann Cup has near perfect seeding. Four balanced groups from the draw yesterday. If the GAA are to make incremental changes to the current format, provincial winners only qualifying and Seed 2 to 4 on league placing would provide balanced All-Ireland groups as well.
The optics of 3 out of 4 qualifying from the groups looks soft. Lower tier hurling championships have to finish in the top 2 of 6! Four McDonagh counties could finish some year on 3 wins each. Two of the four would be eliminated!"

Replying To ForeverBlue2:  "Play the provincial championships before the league with the winners getting top seeding… the rest made up from league placing.., the current system is not fit for purpose.. Imagine Clare or Louth still in the running for a top seed while League champions Derry are considered 3rd seeds… bonkers stuff but typical of GAA incompetence…!"

Replying To Whammo86:  "You look at the fixtures in the group stages of the 2 competitions and they are the sorts of games that should be played but they are let down a little bit by the 3 going through system."

Replying To tirawleybaron:  "If the seedings were like this
1 - Dublin,Kerry, Donegal/Armagh, Mayo/Galway
2 - Derry, Tyrone, Mayo/Galway, Armagh/Donegal
3 - Roscommon, Monaghan, Cavan, Cork
4 - Louth, Westmeath, Clare, Meath

There would be no complaints at all."

Replying To edu:  "
Phase 3-Provincial Championships [6 weeks]
Phase 4-All Ireland Championship / Tailteann Cup[11 weeks]
From start to finish there was 30 match days. Potentially a team could play a maximum of 23 games and a minimum of 12 games. So basically there are 2 provincial competitions and 2 national competitions .Could these be reduced to say one provincial and one national competition ?
The match schedule can be rather hectic and irregular for some teams .Take Mayo as an example-played 11 games in 13 weeks-then no games in 6 weeks-then 5 games in 6 weeks.Monaghan this year have a break of 5/6 weeks after losing to Cavan in Ulster.
The All Ireland Championship[the one that really matters ] started on May 20. That was nearly 5 months after the start of the inter county football season.Then for most teams it is all over in 4/5 weeks.There surely has to be a better/alternative way of organizing the season.
One thing holding things back are not the provincial championships as such but the need in having them linked to the A.I.C. Until a couple years ago there was no link between the League and Championship. Did that the affect the attendances or the interest? I dont think so. A lot of talk are about getting rid of the provincials but that would not be the way to go and would not happen anyways. A suggestion would be to merge the provincial cups and championships and to start the season with them. Organize them so that teams would be guaranteed a minimum of 3 games Groups of 3 would be ideal with the top 2 teams advancing to the respective championship knock out stages and the bottom teams in the groups playing off for the Dr. Mckenna Cup/O Byrne Cup/Mcgrath Cup/F.B.D Cup.These secondary cup finals could ideally be played as curtain raisers to the senior final.What about New York in Connacht?-possibly they are given a bye to the F.B.D Cup final. There is always a great appetite for inter county football at the start of the year as it has been 5/6 months since teams have played.So thats the provincials-no link to All Ireland. They have to stand on their own 2 feet.
As regards the A.I.C- There is a structure that already exists within the G.A.A and works fantastically well- that is tiered championships[ Senior Intermediate and Junior] with promotion and relegation between the tiers. It operates in county club championships inter county hurling and Ladies football and camoige. I dont understand why inter county football is such an outlier. Probably tradition and sure look thats always the way it has been.
A idea would be for the N.F.L to be absorbed into the A.I.C. Currently a team is guaranteed 10 games between N.F.L and A.I.C/Tailteann Cup [7+3].The A.I.C would consist of 3 tiers [12--12--8]. Each team would be guaranteed 10 championship games. This would be followed by the knock out stages in each in each tier culminating in 3 All Ireland champions being crowned.
The maximum number of games a team could play[provincials + A.I.C] a team is 19 down from 23 under the current format. The minimum is 13 up from 12. This structure would allow more breathing space in the season as opposed to the current situation.
As it happens Proposal B a few years ago was the provincials at the start of season followed by a league based championship with no link between them. It got about 50% of the vote but didnt get the required amount. It was said at the time that it was the lack of support from the provincial council delegates that prevented the plan from being passed.. Under the current format the provincials have a greatly reduced relevance. All the top teams have a guaranteed place in the A.I.C. In fact looking at last season just 2 teams qualified through the provincials [Clare and Sligo] that hadnt already qualified through their league position. So much for the current relevance of the provincials as regards the A.I.C. The provincials were great in their day[pre qualifier era] as that was the only way of progressing to A.I.C semi finals. That day has long passed."]PROVINCIALS CHAMPIONSHIPS [incorporating provincial cups]

ULSTER
3 groups of 3 [Top 2 in each group qualify - 6 teams] Best 2 group winners to semi finals'
Other 4 to quarter finals.
Bottom team in each group to Dr. Mckenna Cup [3 Teams].

MUNSTER
2 groups of 3 - Top 2 teams in each group qualify for semi finals.
Bottom team in each group play Mcgrath Cup Final.

CONNACHT
2 groups of 3 -Top 2 teams in each group qualify for semi finals.
Bottom team in each group qualify for F.B.D Cup semi final.
Winner plays New York in F.B.D. Cup final.
London rotation continues.

LEINSTER
3 groups of 3 and 1 group of 2 [ 2 legged tie]
7 teams qualify for knock out stages.[Top 2 teams in 3 team groups + winner 2 team group.
Best group winner to semi final.
Other 6 teams to quarter finals.[3 games]
Bottom team in each group to O Byrne Cup [4 teams].
Dublin not to be drawn in 2 team group [for obvious reasons]

Thats the Provincials. A minimum of 3 games per team up to a maximum of 5 games. Each team has a break week during the group stage. So that is 6 matchdays in total down from 9 matchdays under the current system taking Ulster as an example[5 matchdays in Dr. Mckenna Cup + 4 matchdays in Ulster Championship].
With 2 teams qualifying out of 3 - it would be imperative for the winner of the first game to be playing in the second game in order to avoid 2 teams playing in the third game that may both have already qualified.
The season starts with the Provincials with no direct link to the upcoming Championship."]3 TIERED CHAMPIONSHIP..
This is a merged League and Championship made up of divisions/tiers of 12--12--8
Each team gets a guaranteed 10 games which is equal to the number of games a team is guaranteed under the current format [7 in League +3 in A.I.C /T.C]

TIER 1 [12 TEAMS]
PHASE 1-- ALL IRELAND LEAGUE CHAMPIONSHIP DIVISION 1 [A.I.L.C. D1]
2 GROUPS OF 6[ SEEDED]
Home and away round robin games in each group.
Team with most points across 2 groups are A.I.L.C D1 winners [no final]
Top 3 teams in each group qualify for A.I.C.
Bottom team in each group play relegation play off [loser relegated]

PHASE 2- ALL IRELAND [SENIOR] CHAMPIONSHIP.
Top team in each group- SEMI FINALS.
Second and third in each group- QUARTER FINALS.

TIER 2 [12 TEAMS]
PHASE 1- ALL IRELAND LEAGUE CHAMPIONSHIP DIVISION 2 [A.I.L.C. D2]
2 GROUPS OF 6 [SEEDED].
Home and away round robin games in each group.
Team with most points across 2 groups are A.I.L.C D2 winners[ no final]
Top 3 teams in each group qualify for k.o stage
Bottom team in each group play relegation play off[ loser relegated]

PHASE 2- ALL IRELAND INTERMEDIATE CHAMPIONSHIP.
Top team in each group- SEMI FINALS.
Second and third in each group- QUARTER FINALS.
WINNER - promoted to tier 1.

TIER 3[ 8 TEAMS + NEW YORK]
PHASE 1- 2 DIVISIONS [NORTH + SOUTH] [4 TEAMS IN EACH DIVISION]
ALL IRELAND LEAGUE CHAMPIONSHIP DIVISION 3 NORTH+DIVISION 3 SOUTH.
Home and away round robin games in each division plus each team in the other division are played once.
[2 home + 2 away] for a total of 10 games overall.
Top team in each group are divisional champions.[Cup for each division]
Top 2 teams in each division + best third placed team qualify for k.o stage.

PHASE 2- ALL IRELAND PREMIER JUNIOR CHAMPIONSHIP.
Top team in each division - SEMI FINALS.
Both second placed teams + best third placed team in addition to New York --QUARTER FINALS.
Home game for New York.
WINNER- promoted to tier 2.

A new fresh draw [seeded ] each year for tier 1 + tier 2.
The above structure requires a maximum of 13 matchdays compared to the current structure of 15.
The above Provincial structure requires 6 matchdays compared to the current structure of 9.That is a reduction of 5 matchdays over a season .This would allow more breathing space to the season. The last round of regular season games in Tier 2 + Tier 3 could have a weekend to themselves.
Currently a division 1 team is guaranteed a place in the A.I.C whither they finish top or bottom. In fact a division 1 team could lose all 7 league games + provincial game and still are guaranteed to be in A.I.C. Under the above structure they would be heading for a relegation play off.
Having All Ireland in the name of a competition greatly enhances the importance and value of it.

Replying To legendzxix:  "If the provincial championships are before the league, it should be provincial winners only qualifying. The remaining places then coming from the league and Tailteann winner.
Top 4 in the league should be the top seeds then. The winners of the four divisions could be rewarded with 3 home games. In All-Ireland and Tailteann groups without a division winner, the top 2 seeds by luck of the draw can be rewarded an extra home game each.
Example in league following provincial championship:
1. Derry top seeds and 3 home games.
2. Donegal Seed 2 and 3 home games.
3. Westmeath Seed 4 and 3 home games.
4. Laois Seed 3 in the Tailteann Cup and 3 home games.
5. Derry, Donegal and Westmeath drawn in different All-Ireland groups.
6. Top 2 seeds in all other All-Ireland and Tailteann group with 2 home games.
7. All other counties with 1 home game.
SUMMARY
Provincial championships offer the first tickets to All-Ireland series. Counties know what they have to do in the league to qualify. Winning each division is rewarded with 3 home games. A county can finish in the top 4 for Seed 1 but pushing on to win the league is rewarded."

Replying To tirawleybaron:  "If the seedings were like this
1 - Dublin,Kerry, Donegal/Armagh, Mayo/Galway
2 - Derry, Tyrone, Mayo/Galway, Armagh/Donegal
3 - Roscommon, Monaghan, Cavan, Cork
4 - Louth, Westmeath, Clare, Meath

There would be no complaints at all."

Replying To tirawleybaron:  "If they had the two losing teams from the first round play each other in the second round, then the games on the last day would always mean something

Add in a relegation play off and everyone is playing for something on the last day"

Replying To Loughduff Lad:  "Folks, not dipped in here in a while, and got caught up in format changes in another thread os coming back in.

Got to ask though, are we not losing the run of ourselves with every more complicated and convoluted structures, building on already bad ideas, and removing Championships to a part of the season that will kill them?

Is there anything to be said for tweaking the system as it is, making the structure simpler, removing meaningless group games, and going back to a knockout Championship with meaning? Like the simple solution is right there. We can see from figures and fan engagement that people are checking out of Championship until later into the summer and knockout games.

So why not keep pre-seasons (they literally are Challenge games in winter) have the League, and have your provincials. Put your provincial winners to quarters so there is reward there, play a round of qualifiers with the other 8 teams who qualify for Sam but don't make a final (using current qualification criteria) over the provincial final weekend, the 4 winners play the provincial losers, and then draw these winners against the provincial winners for your quarter final line up. Then open draw from semi. Or even just draw the 16 teams vs each otehr with the seeding and then open from quarters. Like don't these games have more meaning and jeopardy? Rather than 3 group games over 5 weeks to lose 4 teams, and nobody really cares about it? Think about it. We've compressed out calendar so much, yet we set aside 5 game weeks for 3 group games that really mean nothing? Why are we doing this and why has no one shouted stop here?

With this, you have April as a break from league to build up Championship and whet the appetite, May and early June as provincials (as it used to be) and then play your preliminary quarter finals and QFs from mid June onwards. You could still be done by late July, or even into August if we want to extend the inter county season a wee bit. How is this not preferable than the system right now?

I just don't understand the notion to kill the provincials, and then keep adding more and more games in when we always see that Championship knockout games with meaning are what people want. Have we lost sight of what Championship is meant to be here?"

Replying To Loughduff Lad:  "Folks, not dipped in here in a while, and got caught up in format changes in another thread os coming back in.

Got to ask though, are we not losing the run of ourselves with every more complicated and convoluted structures, building on already bad ideas, and removing Championships to a part of the season that will kill them?

Is there anything to be said for tweaking the system as it is, making the structure simpler, removing meaningless group games, and going back to a knockout Championship with meaning? Like the simple solution is right there. We can see from figures and fan engagement that people are checking out of Championship until later into the summer and knockout games.

So why not keep pre-seasons (they literally are Challenge games in winter) have the League, and have your provincials. Put your provincial winners to quarters so there is reward there, play a round of qualifiers with the other 8 teams who qualify for Sam but don't make a final (using current qualification criteria) over the provincial final weekend, the 4 winners play the provincial losers, and then draw these winners against the provincial winners for your quarter final line up. Then open draw from semi. Or even just draw the 16 teams vs each otehr with the seeding and then open from quarters. Like don't these games have more meaning and jeopardy? Rather than 3 group games over 5 weeks to lose 4 teams, and nobody really cares about it? Think about it. We've compressed out calendar so much, yet we set aside 5 game weeks for 3 group games that really mean nothing? Why are we doing this and why has no one shouted stop here?

With this, you have April as a break from league to build up Championship and whet the appetite, May and early June as provincials (as it used to be) and then play your preliminary quarter finals and QFs from mid June onwards. You could still be done by late July, or even into August if we want to extend the inter county season a wee bit. How is this not preferable than the system right now?

I just don't understand the notion to kill the provincials, and then keep adding more and more games in when we always see that Championship knockout games with meaning are what people want. Have we lost sight of what Championship is meant to be here?"

Replying To Seanfanbocht:  "Back to the Future?!"

Replying To Whammo86:  "I see where you are coming from but disagree.

I think teams, players and fans want more meaningful games.

The current system isn't giving us it but I think it's a waste that there's only about 7 meaningful games a year.

The group stage is rubbish.
The provincials are rubbish
The league is the league. It's a little bit more important than it was particularly for division 2 and 3 but still, we have teams shadow boxing in the league. It's a waste. We have a good game of football between Derry and Dublin and yes Derry have one a national title but would you think Dublin were that pushed about losing that game. They've bigger fish to fry.

So I think the balance is all wrong in terms of impactful games in the primary competition.

A modified league should be the championship.

The Provincials cause issues in terms of fairness and complicating the system to be incorporated into the All Ireland in my view. They either are barely relevant like in the current system or give an unfair advantage to teams in easier provinces. In my view they should just be decoupled."

Replying To Loughduff Lad:  "Do they though? And are all these e3xtra games meaningful? We're seeing fans drop off, media can't keep up with all the games, papers can't get reviews done and build up and so on.

Why is that a waste? Less games ends up being more meaningful. Simply adding in game for the sake of it does not make games more meaningful, if anything it dilutes it. games are becoming missable

The League is indeed the League. Group stage is indeed rubbish. And no, not all provincials are rubbish. Some are, but some aren't. Imagine if hurling killed their provincials because Connacht and Ulster had bad ones?

Probably not. As it's about Championship. So let's make Championship properly meaningful again. League is League. Let's not put the cart before the horse. Play League, then a proper Championship that doesn't have mini leagues in them. A modified League in Championship? Who actually wants that?

I think they only cause issues if you look at them the wrong way round. If you still use them to feed into a knockout, then they still work. I just can't see what killing them will solve, other than getting rid of a chance of silverware that are the only source of silverware that a lot of counties ahve a chance of winning. It's be madness to get rid because we want more leagues in Championships. Does anyone actually want that?

So give them relevance. Don't kill them by inaction. It's rewarding failure. The GAA has failed a lot of counties. The solution is not to tackle the end product and kill the provincials, but to look at root causes.

At the end of the day, Kerry and Dublin will win the majority of All ireland anyway. Whether it's knockout, or a League format that had 50 round robin games. We keep trying to add more games in where we tell ourselves that teams have more of sa chance. But that only suits the biggest teams. Knockout shows that the best teams can be caught on the day"

Replying To Whammo86:  ""A modified League in Championship? Who actually wants that?"

There was a vote a few years ago with a proposal that had a modified league as championship and the provincials decoupled that actually received a majority of delegates but failed to meet the requirements for change.

That wasn't even a very good proposal in terms of how the league was to be modified, obviously I can't know if it would've passed had it been a more sensible league based structure but I'd loved to have seen that be tried. I think it was bizarre that we had a system that was really close to being favoured and then sort of abandoned it.

I'm very very confident that's there a much larger cohort of people who would favour a modified league approach than a knockout or qualifiers style approach.

I don't like the current system but honestly just can't understand anyone who thinks the old way is what people want now."

Replying To Loughduff Lad:  "That's the thing though. The proposals we've seen ahve all been very poor, and best of a bad bunch was being picked. The lague thing was foisted on us with Super 8s, and just seems to be a thing that the GAA want more games, like as if it alone will bring in more revenue or something. I just don't get why diluting a product seems to be better,a nd is accepted. I fail to see why an option of knockout that uses the current seeding isn't ever on the table. It just seems we've been pushed down this current path, and we can tweak changes slightly, but no one admits that maybe going back has more merit overall. Isn't it worth a discussion at least?"

Replying To Loughduff Lad:  "That's the thing though. The proposals we've seen ahve all been very poor, and best of a bad bunch was being picked. The lague thing was foisted on us with Super 8s, and just seems to be a thing that the GAA want more games, like as if it alone will bring in more revenue or something. I just don't get why diluting a product seems to be better,a nd is accepted. I fail to see why an option of knockout that uses the current seeding isn't ever on the table. It just seems we've been pushed down this current path, and we can tweak changes slightly, but no one admits that maybe going back has more merit overall. Isn't it worth a discussion at least?"