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This is one of those times when quoting posts just gets all muddled up, so I'm not bothering to quote.
But in reply to James2011 and his "So fixture congestion is a reason to deprive 80-90% of minor players playing a properly structured competition." -
It's the exact opposite. The rule we have avoids a situation where 100% of minor players couldn't play in properly structured minor competitions between early September and late October, because a small number of them would be lining out in adult championships at weekends as well.
I say 100% because remember how even the ones fit and able for adult competition would still be involved in the held-up minor championships too.
Also remember that resuming minor championships at end of October would lead to even further problems for the U21 grades.
Anyway, question again to icehonesty - do you have a workable solution to how we can play minor championships and adult championships throughout September and October, if minor players are allowed to play in both? I'd still love to hear it. I really would.
Pikeman96 (Wexford) - Posts: 3464 - 22/01/2024 14:00:23
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Replying To Pikeman96: "This is one of those times when quoting posts just gets all muddled up, so I'm not bothering to quote.
But in reply to James2011 and his "So fixture congestion is a reason to deprive 80-90% of minor players playing a properly structured competition." -
It's the exact opposite. The rule we have avoids a situation where 100% of minor players couldn't play in properly structured minor competitions between early September and late October, because a small number of them would be lining out in adult championships at weekends as well.
I say 100% because remember how even the ones fit and able for adult competition would still be involved in the held-up minor championships too.
Also remember that resuming minor championships at end of October would lead to even further problems for the U21 grades.
Anyway, question again to icehonesty - do you have a workable solution to how we can play minor championships and adult championships throughout September and October, if minor players are allowed to play in both? I'd still love to hear it. I really would." @Viking66 And who would decide which 17 year olds were ready and which not? What grades would you play them in? Would you weigh them? Measure their height? How do you decide who is physically ready and who isn't?
The clubs and the individuals would decide who is ready and who is not, and they would decide who is a senior or junior, just as they do with all of their players. I've no idea why you're talking about height and weight, that has zero relevance.
@Pikeman96 I would play minor at whatever stage of the year that the co board deem correct, with this proviso: there are to be no hold ups due to minors playing adult championship. Moving minor games for a small number of players, or holding up a championship for this, isn't right.
So I'd play minor on Wednesday nights and adult games at the weekends. There are no replays until semi-final or finals in adult championship for 2024, so there wouldn't be any clashes. I don't feel there's much need for anything beyond that.
You'd have to get rid of adult Friday night games, as that would potentially have a game on a Wednesday and a Friday for a minor player. You'd also need to leave a couple of Wednesday nights free within the minor schedule, both for rest opportunities, and for potential refixtures (due to bereavements, etc). There would be no playing minor games on any night other than Wednesdays. Also clubs to be sanctioned if they play these minor players in challenge games - there's no need as they are playing plenty.
There's my solution. I like it. I'm sure it's been suggested and shot down before, happy to discuss what ye don't like. (Unless it's about how tall lads are!!!)
icehonesty (Wexford) - Posts: 2587 - 22/01/2024 15:49:42
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Raging not to be getting the evening in croke Park.
Carlow is Very handy in fairness but can't see a big crowd at it.
I see Fogarty on kclr suggested that was 80% of Wexford's championship team. I'd like to know what game he was at
Doylerwex (Wexford) - Posts: 4387 - 22/01/2024 16:38:59
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Replying To Doylerwex: "Raging not to be getting the evening in croke Park.
Carlow is Very handy in fairness but can't see a big crowd at it.
I see Fogarty on kclr suggested that was 80% of Wexford's championship team. I'd like to know what game he was at" I think a bit of a crowd will travel from Wexford given the short journey, especially Bunclody, Ferns Enniscorthy areas are close, can't see many going from Galway given the journey, actually think there supporters are being screwed over, its the equivalent of the game being in Tullamore if roles were reversed.
TerribleFootwork (Wexford) - Posts: 1760 - 22/01/2024 18:26:28
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Replying To Doylerwex: "Raging not to be getting the evening in croke Park.
Carlow is Very handy in fairness but can't see a big crowd at it.
I see Fogarty on kclr suggested that was 80% of Wexford's championship team. I'd like to know what game he was at" Why would more people go if it was in Croke Park? Carlow is alot handier. As regards Fogarty it would be great if 80% of those lads were ready for Senior championship come the summer, but I seriously doubt they will.
Viking66 (Wexford) - Posts: 19055 - 22/01/2024 19:23:31
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Replying To TerribleFootwork: "I think a bit of a crowd will travel from Wexford given the short journey, especially Bunclody, Ferns Enniscorthy areas are close, can't see many going from Galway given the journey, actually think there supporters are being screwed over, its the equivalent of the game being in Tullamore if roles were reversed." Wouldn't say too many from Galway would go anyway for a Walsh Cup game. There wasn't a huge crowd of them when it was in Portlaoise a while back.
Viking66 (Wexford) - Posts: 19055 - 22/01/2024 19:25:03
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@icehonesty - Minor on Wednesday nights has indeed been suggested before, over on the "Wexford Structures" thread, and just one word sums up why it's not the simple solution that it might seem to be. That word is floodlights.
As I'm sure you know, minor is run on a basis that one of the clubs plays at home, up to and including the semi-finals. The majority of clubs don't have floodlights. So come the middle of September, you'd have to be starting matches probably no later than 5.30 p.m. to have them finished before it got too dark. You'd have to be starting even earlier as you got into October. And that's simply not practical.
Not as simple either as saying "play the matches at neutral venues with floodlights". Even if all clubs agreed to that, I reckon there's only about 10 or 12 club grounds with lights. And a full round of minor championship is somewhere around 18 to 20 matches (36 to 40 teams competing in both hurling and football).
So even if you add in Patrick's Park, Wexford Park, and every floodlit pitch there is at the Centre of Excellence, you'd need every single floodlit pitch in the county to play a single round of minor matches.
Now think of the impact this would have on the clubs with floodlights themselves. You'd be taking their pitch every Wednesday night to stage a minor match there. Possibly a second night per week too, if there were genuine reasons for some other floodlit ground not being available. Think of the knock-on effect that would have as regards the club's own teams not being able to train there on those nights.
And who'd pay for the use of all these lights? Normally a club gets a "ground rent" when it's used as a neutral venue. Pretty sure it's €200 when there are floodlights involved. So if you need 10 to 12 club grounds for each round of matches, that's up to €2,400 a week.
The ground rent is normally covered or at least subsidised by the gate receipts. But there are no gate receipts from any underage match bar the county finals. So where's the money to come from?
Finally, there's also the consideration that from middle of September onwards, many of the older minor players are moving away to start college. Are you going to expect them to travel from Dublin or somewhere else every Wednesday night for a match?
So, continuing all minor matches on Wednesday nights simply isn't feasible. Only other real option is to move the concluding stages of the minor championships to when the adult championships are over. But even you say that "Moving minor games for a small number of players, or holding up a championship for this, isn't right." So where does that leave you?
Like yourself - happy to discuss!
Pikeman96 (Wexford) - Posts: 3464 - 22/01/2024 19:32:48
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Replying To Viking66: "Wouldn't say too many from Galway would go anyway for a Walsh Cup game. There wasn't a huge crowd of them when it was in Portlaoise a while back." From memory think it was 1,700 at that game in January 2020, I'd say the crowd was about 75% Wexford.
TerribleFootwork (Wexford) - Posts: 1760 - 22/01/2024 22:06:39
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Replying To TerribleFootwork: "From memory think it was 1,700 at that game in January 2020, I'd say the crowd was about 75% Wexford." We were on the back of winning Leinster so a bit momentum with the team hence the good support.
TerribleFootwork (Wexford) - Posts: 1760 - 23/01/2024 00:48:14
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Replying To Viking66: " Replying To icehonesty: "[quote=Pikeman96: "The rule about minors not being allowed to play adult is <u>not</u> primarily to do with physical size or ability.
Nobody disputes that <u>some</u> minor players would be well able to hold their at adult level. But the keyword is <u>some</u>. Maybe 10% of them. Maybe 20% at an absolute push.
The difficulty then is how you run the minor championships from about the middle of September onwards for the other 80 to 90% of minor players, if this minority is tied up in playing adult grade matches?
We've already discussed this at length in the "Wexford Structures 2024" thread. I've asked the same question there. I'd still love to hear a workable solution from you or anybody else who continues to argue that minors should be allowed play at adult level.
If you can come up with one, I'm all ears."</div>Fixtures congestion is just not a good enough reason to deprive 10-20% of minor players the development opportunity of playing at adult level." You still aren't coming up with any ideas on the practical side of this. When would you play the minor championship? And who would decide which 17 year olds were ready and which not? What grades would you play them in? Would you weigh them? Measure their height? How do you decide who is physically ready and who isn't?"]Based on the Minor hurling final last year none of the players would have been good enough to play senior. Therefore they would get thrown in at the lower divisions. A lot of players end up playing adult before they should simply because there is no proper structure for them to continue on without playing without playing adult. That is the U21 problem.
zinny (Wexford) - Posts: 2191 - 23/01/2024 02:57:11
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Replying To TerribleFootwork: "From memory think it was 1,700 at that game in January 2020, I'd say the crowd was about 75% Wexford." I think overall there will be a bigger crowd in Carlow for the game than there would be at any other neutral venue.
Viking66 (Wexford) - Posts: 19055 - 23/01/2024 06:46:00
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Typo in my long post above - just pointing it out in case that's the thing that gets picked up on.
Should say that in middle of September, you'd have to be starting matches at 6.30 p.m., not 5.30
It follows on that by the end of September, you'd have to be starting at 6 p.m., and by middle of October, you'd have to start at 5.30 p.m.
Point remains that Wednesday evening matches for minors at that time of year are simply not feasible until you solve the floodlights issue.
Pikeman96 (Wexford) - Posts: 3464 - 23/01/2024 13:25:42
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Replying To Doylerwex: "Raging not to be getting the evening in croke Park.
Carlow is Very handy in fairness but can't see a big crowd at it.
I see Fogarty on kclr suggested that was 80% of Wexford's championship team. I'd like to know what game he was at" Yeah just finished listening to a podcast they put out, 2 lads on that reckoned we'd at least 7 definite championship starters playing on Saturday, also weren't hopeful on our championship chances seemed to think we're closer to relegation than top 3 in Leinster, suppose the disgraceful display against Westmeath last year is still in mind.
TerribleFootwork (Wexford) - Posts: 1760 - 23/01/2024 13:52:07
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Replying To zinny: "I would be completely against the combined schools as well. The schools should be where the these players get a level up from the coaching they receive in clubs - if we have combined schools its limiting the number of players that are exposed to this coaching. The only problem I see is that the schools finish way too early - St Peters are now out of hurling and football and its mid Jan but its a tough one to solve because of exams. Is there any secondary competitions that happen now? and do the schools continue on with training regardless?" But do you not feel that with only 3 schools in Wexford being capable of being remotely competitive in this competition and the rest of the county playing 2nd grade hurling rather than competing v St Kierans etc you are denying yourself the opportunity to play top teams?
I think that as a whole hurling in Leinster is below the standard in Munster and that is also at schools level. Only St. Kierans are ever close to comepeting with Ard Scoil Ris, St Flannans, North Mon, etc when it comes to All Irelands. Playing better teams, more often, raises the standard of the competition. And most of the time I think their best test comes from Kilkenny CBS or occasionally Good Counsel with half a team from Kilkenny.
Again it comes back to the old debate of do you play with your school in a poor standard competition that nobody remembers or knows about, or in a better competition with a combined school, and what is in the best interest of the county minor hurling (and football) teams?
Another part of the Wexford GAA identity crisis.
ExiledInWex (Dublin) - Posts: 1586 - 23/01/2024 16:04:17
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Replying To TerribleFootwork: "From memory think it was 1,700 at that game in January 2020, I'd say the crowd was about 75% Wexford." There was hardly 1,700 from Wexford at an U20 Leinster Final in Carlow last year!
If there is 500 at the Walsh Cup final I would be amazed.
ExiledInWex (Dublin) - Posts: 1586 - 23/01/2024 16:28:11
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Replying To ExiledInWex: "But do you not feel that with only 3 schools in Wexford being capable of being remotely competitive in this competition and the rest of the county playing 2nd grade hurling rather than competing v St Kierans etc you are denying yourself the opportunity to play top teams?
I think that as a whole hurling in Leinster is below the standard in Munster and that is also at schools level. Only St. Kierans are ever close to comepeting with Ard Scoil Ris, St Flannans, North Mon, etc when it comes to All Irelands. Playing better teams, more often, raises the standard of the competition. And most of the time I think their best test comes from Kilkenny CBS or occasionally Good Counsel with half a team from Kilkenny.
Again it comes back to the old debate of do you play with your school in a poor standard competition that nobody remembers or knows about, or in a better competition with a combined school, and what is in the best interest of the county minor hurling (and football) teams?
Another part of the Wexford GAA identity crisis." Munster teams record the last few years isn't the strongest in the Croke Cup, Kieran's have dominated winning 6 of the last 8 years ( no competition for 2 years alright with Covid) and 3 of the last 4 finals have been Kierans v Athenry.
TerribleFootwork (Wexford) - Posts: 1760 - 23/01/2024 16:32:33
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Seen on the Wexford People that Conor Foley & Hearne's injuries seem to be only minor, might be out for Sunday alright but nothing long term.
TerribleFootwork (Wexford) - Posts: 1760 - 23/01/2024 16:34:38
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Replying To ExiledInWex: "There was hardly 1,700 from Wexford at an U20 Leinster Final in Carlow last year!
If there is 500 at the Walsh Cup final I would be amazed." As I said in another post it was not long after we won leinster so there was a bit of momentum in terms of support.
TerribleFootwork (Wexford) - Posts: 1760 - 23/01/2024 16:36:49
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Replying To ExiledInWex: "There was hardly 1,700 from Wexford at an U20 Leinster Final in Carlow last year!
If there is 500 at the Walsh Cup final I would be amazed." It's handy to travel to, but the weather will dictate for a lot. Tickets bought for us anyway!
goreyll (Wexford) - Posts: 176 - 23/01/2024 17:33:11
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Replying To ExiledInWex: "But do you not feel that with only 3 schools in Wexford being capable of being remotely competitive in this competition and the rest of the county playing 2nd grade hurling rather than competing v St Kierans etc you are denying yourself the opportunity to play top teams?
I think that as a whole hurling in Leinster is below the standard in Munster and that is also at schools level. Only St. Kierans are ever close to comepeting with Ard Scoil Ris, St Flannans, North Mon, etc when it comes to All Irelands. Playing better teams, more often, raises the standard of the competition. And most of the time I think their best test comes from Kilkenny CBS or occasionally Good Counsel with half a team from Kilkenny.
Again it comes back to the old debate of do you play with your school in a poor standard competition that nobody remembers or knows about, or in a better competition with a combined school, and what is in the best interest of the county minor hurling (and football) teams?
Another part of the Wexford GAA identity crisis." I'd have to disagree with the schools bit, most of the finals last 6 years have been Kierans v Athenry....Kierans have actually won more all Ireland's than Leinsters over the last period so I don't know if Harty Cup is as high a standard as it's given credit for. Same few teams always in business end. Ardscoil, Athenry, Kierans,...then get a few like Good Counsel, Kilkenny CBS, Gort, Loughrea, Templemore, Flannans, Thurles that make up semi finals, quarter finals a lot of the time as well over last 8 years. Might get the odd Tulla or CBC or Peter's thrown in there but by im large it's the same schools year in year out once it gets to all Ireland series and usually more times than not it's Kierans playing Athenry in a final which Kierans win in last 6 or 7 years.
Agree a bit with Wexford schools not doing well in Leinster, I know Counsel won Leisnter a few years ago but the old barb of them being half a Kilkenny school throw around, but Peter's decline since 2017ish has been dissapointing as well as Enniscorty. Wexford CBS should probably be doing a bit better too. I do think a combined Wexford schools team wouldn't be a bad shout for a year, maybe not long term but wouldn't mind it for a year, would be a nice boost for lads to win a Leisnter A title and maybe win a B all Ireland with their own schools. Just an idea, maybe just for a little boost for schools in the county. Shouldn't think we're above it, or even a combined Wexford town schools team or something. Be a nice link with Wexford u20s too. Did wonders for Offaly.
Throughthemidfieldhewasstormin (Wexford) - Posts: 332 - 23/01/2024 17:45:32
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