National Forum

Non-Gaa Forum

(Oldest Posts First) - Go To The Latest Post


Replying To cavanman47:  "The Dublin government here has repeatedly stated that.

Sinn Fein in the 6 counties have repeatedly stated that.

The only people claiming it will be anything else (i.e. something anti-British, sectarian, Catholic, 2-tiered, something to be feared. . .) are unionists. They are either drumming up fear amongst their followers or they genuinely believe that the Irish would visit upon them the type of apartheid that was visited on the nationalist community in the North for decades.

I believe its simply fear mongering. . .
The NHS is crumbling.
The standard of living in Ireland is higher than in the UK (and NI is below the UK average for SOI).
"Rome rule" is gone.
London doesn't want the North.
And, by just about every measurable indicator (not opposition political parties or social media driven naysayers with agendas) the Irish state is one of the best in the world to live in.

Fear mongering is all they have left."
Well said cavanman, the Unionists will appeal to their extremists to preserve their artificial state.
Why change a flag that includes both traditions to suit a minority?.

thelongridge (Offaly) - Posts: 1879 - 29/05/2024 17:28:52    2548213

Link

Replying To yew_tree:  "For now it is…it will happen eventually but not in the short to medium term. That's just my opinion. There is going to be give and take on both sides. A new "federal state" most likely with a new flag, anthem and parliament/government structure. A new civil service, police etc. The six counties aren't just going to be absorbed into the republic in its current form. I wonder do people realise that?"
I still think that even the threat of the country uniting would kick off all sorts of unrest from a certain element up there. It wouldn't bother me if there was never a United Ireland in my lifetime and there's a lot of people in the south here that would think quite similar. It's a cute idea but at what price.

Bon (Kildare) - Posts: 2303 - 29/05/2024 18:31:12    2548233

Link

Replying To cavanman47:  "The Dublin government here has repeatedly stated that.

Sinn Fein in the 6 counties have repeatedly stated that.

The only people claiming it will be anything else (i.e. something anti-British, sectarian, Catholic, 2-tiered, something to be feared. . .) are unionists. They are either drumming up fear amongst their followers or they genuinely believe that the Irish would visit upon them the type of apartheid that was visited on the nationalist community in the North for decades.

I believe its simply fear mongering. . .
The NHS is crumbling.
The standard of living in Ireland is higher than in the UK (and NI is below the UK average for SOI).
"Rome rule" is gone.
London doesn't want the North.
And, by just about every measurable indicator (not opposition political parties or social media driven naysayers with agendas) the Irish state is one of the best in the world to live in.

Fear mongering is all they have left."
Aren't loads of young people still leaving Ireland though? A young person born and reared here is more likely to leave than someone the same age born in the UK (as far as I know anyways),, and many of our youngsters choose Britain as their preferred destination when seeking to emigrate.

That's a pretty measurable indicator imo.

Not necessarily disagreeing with you, I don't know much about the ins and outs of this type of thing.

Galway9801 (Galway) - Posts: 1942 - 29/05/2024 19:09:23    2548240

Link

Replying To thelongridge:  "Well said cavanman, the Unionists will appeal to their extremists to preserve their artificial state.
Why change a flag that includes both traditions to suit a minority?."
If you think unionists will accept the tricolour your living in cloud cuckoo land.

yew_tree (Mayo) - Posts: 11557 - 29/05/2024 20:00:06    2548245

Link

Replying To thelongridge:  "Well said cavanman, the Unionists will appeal to their extremists to preserve their artificial state.
Why change a flag that includes both traditions to suit a minority?."
Because it's not how the flag has been used In years and years or how it's represented. If there was to be a united Ireland of some kind would changing the flag make people want a flag change or prefer to not to have a united Ireland?

KillingFields (Limerick) - Posts: 3748 - 29/05/2024 20:45:36    2548248

Link

Replying To KillingFields:  "Because it's not how the flag has been used In years and years or how it's represented. If there was to be a united Ireland of some kind would changing the flag make people want a flag change or prefer to not to have a united Ireland?"
New All Ireland State will have a new All Ireland flag and a new All Ireland anthem.
Will probably be a Confederation with 2 Home Rule areas based on the current 6 and 26 Co areas.
6 Cos residents will have the option of dual Nationality/citizenship/passports.

Proponents of an All Ireland State should be looking at Swiss and Belgian arrangements.

Seanfanbocht (Roscommon) - Posts: 2289 - 30/05/2024 10:36:07    2548313

Link

Replying To Galway9801:  "Aren't loads of young people still leaving Ireland though? A young person born and reared here is more likely to leave than someone the same age born in the UK (as far as I know anyways),, and many of our youngsters choose Britain as their preferred destination when seeking to emigrate.

That's a pretty measurable indicator imo.

Not necessarily disagreeing with you, I don't know much about the ins and outs of this type of thing."
You are correct. More people leave Ireland than leave the UK by a ratio of 3:2.

But there are nuances at play:

1. Irish people have an automatic right to live in any EU state. Since Brexit UK citizens (who don't hold EU passports) do not.

2. While our economy is out-performing the UK's, it didn't traditionally do so up until this century. As a result, Ireland has a far larger diaspora worldwide. i.e. a young person born and reared here are more likely to have a relation/family friend in an overseas destination that their UK counterpart.

3. The attitude of former colonies towards Irish people is much warmer than towards English people (of course I don't have figures for this. As Baz Luhrmann would say I have no basis more reliable than my own meandering experiences).


I suppose I'd sum it up as so;

In my opinion, Irish people emmigrate in greater numbers than their UK counterparts due to the pull factors associated with their destination. .not the push factors present at home.

cavanman47 (Cavan) - Posts: 5245 - 30/05/2024 11:02:12    2548325

Link

Replying To Seanfanbocht:  "New All Ireland State will have a new All Ireland flag and a new All Ireland anthem.
Will probably be a Confederation with 2 Home Rule areas based on the current 6 and 26 Co areas.
6 Cos residents will have the option of dual Nationality/citizenship/passports.

Proponents of an All Ireland State should be looking at Swiss and Belgian arrangements."
The flag already includes them. They'll just have to live with the anthem I'm afraid.

If they go then there's no point in doing it.

Doylerwex (Wexford) - Posts: 3559 - 31/05/2024 10:35:49    2548529

Link

Replying To Doylerwex:  "The flag already includes them. They'll just have to live with the anthem I'm afraid.

If they go then there's no point in doing it."
We could come to a compromise on the flag issue.

Keep the tri-colour as is, and allow the UK (which will then be known simply as Britain) to keep the union jack as is. Allow them retain the diagonal stripe which represents those in NI who consider themselves British.

cavanman47 (Cavan) - Posts: 5245 - 31/05/2024 10:48:58    2548532

Link

Replying To Doylerwex:  "The flag already includes them. They'll just have to live with the anthem I'm afraid.

If they go then there's no point in doing it."
The flag was supposed to be a symbol of peace and reconciliation but became a symbol of terrorism to one side of the community it was supposed to represent - your answer to that is to tell them to suck it up and get over it?
When they were negotiating the Anglo Irish Treaty in 1921 what would you think their response would have been if they were told that they could have a 32 county Ireland as long as they had a flag and anthem acceptable to all traditions?
Nobody cares about our flag or anthem anymore - look at the GAA games - does anyone care enough to stand still or sing until the end? and nobody seems to care that its used as a message board across the world to signify where people came from or to remind the world its a bunch of lads on tour.
For all that is wrong with America, they know how to respect their flag and anthem - to pretend we care that much about it in Ireland is fantasy.

zinny (Wexford) - Posts: 1956 - 31/05/2024 11:15:53    2548537

Link

Replying To zinny:  "The flag was supposed to be a symbol of peace and reconciliation but became a symbol of terrorism to one side of the community it was supposed to represent - your answer to that is to tell them to suck it up and get over it?
When they were negotiating the Anglo Irish Treaty in 1921 what would you think their response would have been if they were told that they could have a 32 county Ireland as long as they had a flag and anthem acceptable to all traditions?
Nobody cares about our flag or anthem anymore - look at the GAA games - does anyone care enough to stand still or sing until the end? and nobody seems to care that its used as a message board across the world to signify where people came from or to remind the world its a bunch of lads on tour.
For all that is wrong with America, they know how to respect their flag and anthem - to pretend we care that much about it in Ireland is fantasy."
I think public opinion on that would surprise you. You may not care, a lot of people care very deeply.

Then again maybe I'm just really naive.

Doylerwex (Wexford) - Posts: 3559 - 31/05/2024 11:25:15    2548538

Link

Replying To zinny:  "The flag was supposed to be a symbol of peace and reconciliation but became a symbol of terrorism to one side of the community it was supposed to represent - your answer to that is to tell them to suck it up and get over it?
When they were negotiating the Anglo Irish Treaty in 1921 what would you think their response would have been if they were told that they could have a 32 county Ireland as long as they had a flag and anthem acceptable to all traditions?
Nobody cares about our flag or anthem anymore - look at the GAA games - does anyone care enough to stand still or sing until the end? and nobody seems to care that its used as a message board across the world to signify where people came from or to remind the world its a bunch of lads on tour.
For all that is wrong with America, they know how to respect their flag and anthem - to pretend we care that much about it in Ireland is fantasy."
Zinny you are very wrong to come out with that statement. Just because you don't care about our flag or anthem does not mean everybody is with you. I love my countrys flag and I love my anthem. I sing it loudly and proudly at every game from start to finish.

Ollie2 (Louth) - Posts: 1033 - 31/05/2024 11:59:13    2548546

Link

Replying To Ollie2:  "Zinny you are very wrong to come out with that statement. Just because you don't care about our flag or anthem does not mean everybody is with you. I love my countrys flag and I love my anthem. I sing it loudly and proudly at every game from start to finish."
I am always proud to stand for the anthem and our flag, on sporting and other occasions.
The fact that illegal organisations claimed the flag, does not change it's underlying message of hope and reconciliation.. The flag and anthem represent the legitimate government of this county.

thelongridge (Offaly) - Posts: 1879 - 31/05/2024 13:09:03    2548561

Link

This absolute embarrassment of an effort to build a children's hospital is another example of what a gomeless government we have had for decades…Whoever gave the go ahead to build a hospital in an area nobody has a hope of getting to needs to be taken out and flogged…. It's already 4 times the original cost but no matter the tax payers will foot the bill and bail out the political num skulls…!!!!

ForeverBlue2 (Cavan) - Posts: 3802 - 31/05/2024 13:09:17    2548562

Link

If there is to be a united Ireland then Ulster protestants would have to be given a considerable degree of local autonomy and be accepted as British by identity.

Éire Nua proposed to do that in effect. All Ireland unity but federal regional and local self government, decentralized away from Dublin. From which everyone would benefit if done properly.

Have no expectations of either unity nor any turnaround from this country becoming more a cosmopolitan industrial estate and financial centre but it was a good idea.

BarneyGrant (Dublin) - Posts: 3494 - 31/05/2024 14:52:27    2548579

Link

Replying To thelongridge:  "I am always proud to stand for the anthem and our flag, on sporting and other occasions.
The fact that illegal organisations claimed the flag, does not change it's underlying message of hope and reconciliation.. The flag and anthem represent the legitimate government of this county."
What flag should nationalists have used to resist the illegal occupation then. Don't forget the 1918 mandate still stood.

tireoghainabu (Tyrone) - Posts: 390 - 31/05/2024 15:51:43    2548591

Link

Replying To BarneyGrant:  "If there is to be a united Ireland then Ulster protestants would have to be given a considerable degree of local autonomy and be accepted as British by identity.

Éire Nua proposed to do that in effect. All Ireland unity but federal regional and local self government, decentralized away from Dublin. From which everyone would benefit if done properly.

Have no expectations of either unity nor any turnaround from this country becoming more a cosmopolitan industrial estate and financial centre but it was a good idea."
Local autonomy where?

They don't currently represent the majority in the 6 counties.

They currently have local autonomy and that isn't exactly working well. The assembly has been working for what, 25% of the last 6 years?

The Irish government is paying a good portion of the bill for the A5 upgrades.

The HSE had to send ambulances up to Belfast during Covid to prevent their NHS from crashing.

And if/when a UI vote does pass, we should respect the democratic process by having just that - a UNITED Ireland.

cavanman47 (Cavan) - Posts: 5245 - 31/05/2024 16:44:35    2548596

Link

Replying To Doylerwex:  "I think public opinion on that would surprise you. You may not care, a lot of people care very deeply.

Then again maybe I'm just really naive."
I didn't say I was not proud of our Flag or National Anthem that we have for our country but I do not for one second think it would represent everyone on the Island or Ireland. A flag and Anthem should try to represent everyone in the country - what's the point of it if it doesn't?

A lot of people deeply may care but its obvious a lot of people don't either given their disrespect to it - how often are the crowd or players called out for not standing to attention until the anthem is finished. How often does anyone call out people using the flag as a postcard when overseas at games or events? I have never heard any politician complaining about it - simply because it would be a death wish for their political career.

The point is I do care and believe that everyone should care but that a flag and anthem should be used to bring people together and not to exclude.

zinny (Wexford) - Posts: 1956 - 31/05/2024 18:01:28    2548602

Link

Replying To thelongridge:  "I am always proud to stand for the anthem and our flag, on sporting and other occasions.
The fact that illegal organisations claimed the flag, does not change it's underlying message of hope and reconciliation.. The flag and anthem represent the legitimate government of this county."
But it does change it - the flags original intention has been completely lost and a large portion of the community will never see it any other way.

zinny (Wexford) - Posts: 1956 - 31/05/2024 18:05:01    2548603

Link

Replying To tireoghainabu:  "What flag should nationalists have used to resist the illegal occupation then. Don't forget the 1918 mandate still stood."
The 1918 mandate would be reaffirmed in a 32 county vote but there won't be one.

That's the problem; how to come up with imaginative ways of getting around that? And that of course does not mean a return to an unwinnable war.

BarneyGrant (Dublin) - Posts: 3494 - 31/05/2024 19:22:58    2548609

Link