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Replying To ONdeDITCH: "Would you be in favour of changing that and having a more meaningful competition?" Yes,,, but again,, very few would have any chance of winning it.
Galway9801 (Galway) - Posts: 1709 - 22/01/2021 14:33:02
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Replying To ONdeDITCH: "Would you be in favour of changing that and having a more meaningful competition?" No matter what the structure is you will always have teams who will never have a chance of winning or rarely if ever will win.
The GAA has its inter county season structures wrong. Teams play more Games in January and February which are pre season and first month of competitive games than they will in the main months of the season.
That needs to change.
KillingFields (Limerick) - Posts: 3510 - 22/01/2021 14:56:10
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Replying To dougal123: "1. Development funding over and above what clubs in other counties get is a cost to clubs in Dublin, not a gain. In some cases it is an unwelcome cost.
2. Yes, some counties might have travelling costs over and above other counties. But if they are being paid centrally, what checks will be put in place to ensure they are not abused. If four guys are travelling from the same area, I suspect in reality you will find each will submit expenses even though they travelled together. Also while Dublin do have an advantage in distance over some counties, they do not have an advantage in time. A 10km journey can take an hour at the wrong times. Centralised expenses do have merit, but will be tricky to control and the first time some guy is turned down, there will be uproar.
3. CEO. If you want him to only look after finances then I assume it is a CFO, not a CEO that is being proposed. If the chairman wants to spend money on a project, who gets to make that call, the full time guy or the elected guy? What happens if the guy given the job is not working out. Who gets to sack him, the county or central council?
4. Stadiums - what is the definition of a good stadium? Everyone has a different idea. What is it worth to have a stadium to host one match per year in some cases, 10 million, 20 million, 30 million ? I don't know the answer to that and I suspect everyone will have a different number in mind. But you should have send it is 'end of' at the start - then obviously no further discussion was required.
The thing that is evident from this thread, which is probably better informed then most other public discussions, is how little is known of the actual facts. People have very strong opinions on things yet can't be bothered to find out the details - and this is a matter of detail.
I have no great opinions one way or the other which county gets money and which doesn't. Once it fulfils the ethos and purpose of the GAA, which is to encourage and promote the playing of the games. I don't think infra-structure projects do that particularly, or I don't think giving money to areas where the game is strong does that. Some counties might have a really strong playing base, but have one or two areas where the game is struggling - that is the area that needs support and it shouldn't be ignored because on a county wide basis everything else is ok. The money needs to be spent to get the maximum amount of children playing the game. Generally the game is weaker in urban areas, but these are also the areas where a lot of people can be reached relatively easily. So for me, the GAA should be prioritising the development of games within the larger towns and cities and trying to get kids who aren't playing the games to start. Giving a county help in some direction to free up money so they can pay the latest next big thing manager is not what the game is about.
Dublin got money to increase the penetration of the game in the county. They used it wisely and they did that, in football and hurling for male and females. This by extension gave a greater pool of players to pick elite players from and like all things, the wider the base the better the tip. But other counties want to forego the hard work and just try to make their good players better and forget about the rest of it." This was an excellent post
Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 4226 - 22/01/2021 16:35:02
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With Dublin County board having purchased two sites for GAA development...one in South Dublin and one in West Dublin.are they planning for the inevitable splitting of Dublin?
ONdeDITCH (Limerick) - Posts: 873 - 25/01/2021 21:33:34
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Good article in yesterday's independent by Colm O'Rourke https://m.independent.ie/sport/gaelic-games/population-funding-and-major-structural-defects-how-to-stop-the-gaa-collapsing-in-on-itself-40031253.html
People who say O'Rourke is out to down Dublin, if they read this they will see where he is coming from. He was part of the GAAs football Strategic review committee back in 2002. I had forgot that in 2002 it was this committee who first suggested splitting Dublin (as part of an overall strategy to grow the game in Dublin).
I did not know that it was this committee that first put giving Dublin way more funding on the table (splitting Dublin was seen as logical as part of giving the extra funding to grow the game).
They also wanted to insist that as part of the extra funding more clubs would be formed in Dublin so no clubs would be allowed to have the huge catchment areas that they have.
From memory (although not mentioned in this article) this committee also suggested a much more logical competition structure based on a tiered system and a pool stage.
Had this committee being listened to a lot of the current problems of the game would not have arisen.
bdbuddah (Meath) - Posts: 1354 - 01/02/2021 13:36:08
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Replying To bdbuddah: "Good article in yesterday's independent by Colm O'Rourke https://m.independent.ie/sport/gaelic-games/population-funding-and-major-structural-defects-how-to-stop-the-gaa-collapsing-in-on-itself-40031253.html
People who say O'Rourke is out to down Dublin, if they read this they will see where he is coming from. He was part of the GAAs football Strategic review committee back in 2002. I had forgot that in 2002 it was this committee who first suggested splitting Dublin (as part of an overall strategy to grow the game in Dublin).
I did not know that it was this committee that first put giving Dublin way more funding on the table (splitting Dublin was seen as logical as part of giving the extra funding to grow the game).
They also wanted to insist that as part of the extra funding more clubs would be formed in Dublin so no clubs would be allowed to have the huge catchment areas that they have.
From memory (although not mentioned in this article) this committee also suggested a much more logical competition structure based on a tiered system and a pool stage.
Had this committee being listened to a lot of the current problems of the game would not have arisen." I read it and didn't find it that good or informative to be honest. Its nothing he hasn't said before or isn't widely known, Dublin are box office at the moment and i'm suspicious of pundits projecting opinions on the debate and taking up a position to prune their own profiles. Colm's an oul sheep in wolf clothing, arguably Meath are heading the same way in an embryotic way when you look at the border clubs and the like the far side of Blanch.
Much better and informative piece in the Times between Connellan and the Leinster Chairman.
TheUsername (Dublin) - Posts: 4445 - 01/02/2021 14:39:27
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Replying To bdbuddah: "Good article in yesterday's independent by Colm O'Rourke https://m.independent.ie/sport/gaelic-games/population-funding-and-major-structural-defects-how-to-stop-the-gaa-collapsing-in-on-itself-40031253.html
People who say O'Rourke is out to down Dublin, if they read this they will see where he is coming from. He was part of the GAAs football Strategic review committee back in 2002. I had forgot that in 2002 it was this committee who first suggested splitting Dublin (as part of an overall strategy to grow the game in Dublin).
I did not know that it was this committee that first put giving Dublin way more funding on the table (splitting Dublin was seen as logical as part of giving the extra funding to grow the game).
They also wanted to insist that as part of the extra funding more clubs would be formed in Dublin so no clubs would be allowed to have the huge catchment areas that they have.
From memory (although not mentioned in this article) this committee also suggested a much more logical competition structure based on a tiered system and a pool stage.
Had this committee being listened to a lot of the current problems of the game would not have arisen." Absolutely,a great opportunity was missed by the GAA to sort out the teams and clubs structure in Dublin and the competition structure nationwide.Now the GAA have no choice but to address the matter as the competition is on life support.Instead of being positively proactive they will now be taking fire brigade action.
Colm had part one of his contribution on the Sunday Independent of 24th Jan 2021,anyone have a link?
ONdeDITCH (Limerick) - Posts: 873 - 01/02/2021 14:42:02
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Replying To TheUsername: "I read it and didn't find it that good or informative to be honest. Its nothing he hasn't said before or isn't widely known, Dublin are box office at the moment and i'm suspicious of pundits projecting opinions on the debate and taking up a position to prune their own profiles. Colm's an oul sheep in wolf clothing, arguably Meath are heading the same way in an embryotic way when you look at the border clubs and the like the far side of Blanch.
Much better and informative piece in the Times between Connellan and the Leinster Chairman." But Colms piece shows his views on splitting Dublin are not a backlash against Dublin's period of success, his GAA committee suggested this long before Dublin's period of success (19 years ago).
it also shows that, as originally envisioned, the central GAA strategy to invest heavily in growing the games in Dublin (way above what would be justified based on their playing numbers) was originally intended to be part of overall plan which included setting up many new GAA clubs (essentially breaking up Dublin super clubs covering vast catchment areas) and splitting their country team.
Dublin are a big success story for the national GAA in recent years but had this strategic plan being followed in terms of player participation it would probably have lead to even more people playing the games in Dublin (more clubs) and probably better inter county competition.
In terms you mentioning Meath clubs in areas which now include urban sprawl, I would agree with extra GAA clubs being set up in these areas if population justified it. When we visit the type of clubs you talk about for kids go games and talk to their mentors it seems these areas could cater for more clubs.
bdbuddah (Meath) - Posts: 1354 - 01/02/2021 15:38:29
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Replying To bdbuddah: "But Colms piece shows his views on splitting Dublin are not a backlash against Dublin's period of success, his GAA committee suggested this long before Dublin's period of success (19 years ago).
it also shows that, as originally envisioned, the central GAA strategy to invest heavily in growing the games in Dublin (way above what would be justified based on their playing numbers) was originally intended to be part of overall plan which included setting up many new GAA clubs (essentially breaking up Dublin super clubs covering vast catchment areas) and splitting their country team.
Dublin are a big success story for the national GAA in recent years but had this strategic plan being followed in terms of player participation it would probably have lead to even more people playing the games in Dublin (more clubs) and probably better inter county competition.
In terms you mentioning Meath clubs in areas which now include urban sprawl, I would agree with extra GAA clubs being set up in these areas if population justified it. When we visit the type of clubs you talk about for kids go games and talk to their mentors it seems these areas could cater for more clubs." Im not sure he was on that committee was he, maybe a sub committee or something, but not sure he was the stragic review comitee. I dont mind Colm, hes better craic in person then on Tv and he has a very dry sense of humor and enjoys a wind up and he has a dry sense of humor. If im honest i think hes doing this now, hes on a bit of a wind up, he is a bit of wolf in sheep's closing, he has no real malice toward Dublin, but would always love to see them beaten, even when we weren't successfull.
I think the reporting of that committee has gotten rewritten over the years to be honest, it was one of the recommendations made out of a lot of other options to, but to my memory it was never really a runner at county level. I wouldn't throw the baby out with the bathwater though because i would be very much in favor of more clubs in Dublin, they are badly needed as do other clubs need competition - the problem of course is land and facilities. Dublin is painfully behind the rest of the country in terms of pitches and facilities, despite the popular narrative of Dublin being the land of milk and honey, the county players train in Insifallis in the winter and its shockingly bad, but sometimes that no bad thing for attitude or humility either. 40 odd % of pitches of Dublin are in the ownership of clubs in comparison to 70% the far side of Lucan, most GAA pitches in Dublin are provided by the council. That's the great difficulty that sees youngsters funneled towards the huge clubs, we loose talent that way. Its a real problem, but land and building up here is so expensive.
Personally id accept the population argument on splitting Dublin. Ill qualify and say i see that as a problem in decades to come, im not sure the playing participation numbers are there yet to make things unfair, but there is the potential going forward as the game grows in popularity here. Now with a very biased hat, i wouldn't tolerate a split, id actively campaign against it, id be in favor of Dublin puling out of the GAA completely and doing their own thing. I suspect my point of view would be the the predominant one. While if the GAA went to replace Dublin, that entity would be vilified as would anyone partaking, that's how deep i think it would run. So the problem really is with the split - why i can see the logic of it down the road, it wouldn't just kill GAA stone dead in the capitol, it would turn it into an entity of hate culturally in the country's biggest population and commercial center. So its going to be interesting to see what happens.
It really is amazing what's happening in the likes of Ashbourne and Ratoath, i hope Meath learn from the mistakes we made, now is about the time to start those new clubs, buy land and develop facilities, the price of land there is only going one way. Wont be long until we see the likes of Ashbourne beginning to make an impression in Leinter and All Ireland Clubs.
TheUsername (Dublin) - Posts: 4445 - 01/02/2021 16:28:14
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Replying To TheUsername: "Im not sure he was on that committee was he, maybe a sub committee or something, but not sure he was the stragic review comitee. I dont mind Colm, hes better craic in person then on Tv and he has a very dry sense of humor and enjoys a wind up and he has a dry sense of humor. If im honest i think hes doing this now, hes on a bit of a wind up, he is a bit of wolf in sheep's closing, he has no real malice toward Dublin, but would always love to see them beaten, even when we weren't successfull.
I think the reporting of that committee has gotten rewritten over the years to be honest, it was one of the recommendations made out of a lot of other options to, but to my memory it was never really a runner at county level. I wouldn't throw the baby out with the bathwater though because i would be very much in favor of more clubs in Dublin, they are badly needed as do other clubs need competition - the problem of course is land and facilities. Dublin is painfully behind the rest of the country in terms of pitches and facilities, despite the popular narrative of Dublin being the land of milk and honey, the county players train in Insifallis in the winter and its shockingly bad, but sometimes that no bad thing for attitude or humility either. 40 odd % of pitches of Dublin are in the ownership of clubs in comparison to 70% the far side of Lucan, most GAA pitches in Dublin are provided by the council. That's the great difficulty that sees youngsters funneled towards the huge clubs, we loose talent that way. Its a real problem, but land and building up here is so expensive.
Personally id accept the population argument on splitting Dublin. Ill qualify and say i see that as a problem in decades to come, im not sure the playing participation numbers are there yet to make things unfair, but there is the potential going forward as the game grows in popularity here. Now with a very biased hat, i wouldn't tolerate a split, id actively campaign against it, id be in favor of Dublin puling out of the GAA completely and doing their own thing. I suspect my point of view would be the the predominant one. While if the GAA went to replace Dublin, that entity would be vilified as would anyone partaking, that's how deep i think it would run. So the problem really is with the split - why i can see the logic of it down the road, it wouldn't just kill GAA stone dead in the capitol, it would turn it into an entity of hate culturally in the country's biggest population and commercial center. So its going to be interesting to see what happens.
It really is amazing what's happening in the likes of Ashbourne and Ratoath, i hope Meath learn from the mistakes we made, now is about the time to start those new clubs, buy land and develop facilities, the price of land there is only going one way. Wont be long until we see the likes of Ashbourne beginning to make an impression in Leinter and All Ireland Clubs." No I don't think Ó Rourke was on committee back then. The group set out a plan to split Dublin (Northside and Southside). The group in 2002 was chaired by Peter Quinn. It was hoped to have two Dublin teams by 2005 in the championship. Not sure who else was on the committee. O Rourke had been calling this for a while his reason saying it gives players a better chance of playing inter County. At the time I think his reasons were genuine but right now I tend to agree with you Username in that I think he just wants to stop Dubs winning now. I understand why the split is being called for but I also would be totaly against it.
CiarraiMick (Dublin) - Posts: 3676 - 01/02/2021 16:45:30
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Replying To TheUsername: "Im not sure he was on that committee was he, maybe a sub committee or something, but not sure he was the stragic review comitee. I dont mind Colm, hes better craic in person then on Tv and he has a very dry sense of humor and enjoys a wind up and he has a dry sense of humor. If im honest i think hes doing this now, hes on a bit of a wind up, he is a bit of wolf in sheep's closing, he has no real malice toward Dublin, but would always love to see them beaten, even when we weren't successfull.
I think the reporting of that committee has gotten rewritten over the years to be honest, it was one of the recommendations made out of a lot of other options to, but to my memory it was never really a runner at county level. I wouldn't throw the baby out with the bathwater though because i would be very much in favor of more clubs in Dublin, they are badly needed as do other clubs need competition - the problem of course is land and facilities. Dublin is painfully behind the rest of the country in terms of pitches and facilities, despite the popular narrative of Dublin being the land of milk and honey, the county players train in Insifallis in the winter and its shockingly bad, but sometimes that no bad thing for attitude or humility either. 40 odd % of pitches of Dublin are in the ownership of clubs in comparison to 70% the far side of Lucan, most GAA pitches in Dublin are provided by the council. That's the great difficulty that sees youngsters funneled towards the huge clubs, we loose talent that way. Its a real problem, but land and building up here is so expensive.
Personally id accept the population argument on splitting Dublin. Ill qualify and say i see that as a problem in decades to come, im not sure the playing participation numbers are there yet to make things unfair, but there is the potential going forward as the game grows in popularity here. Now with a very biased hat, i wouldn't tolerate a split, id actively campaign against it, id be in favor of Dublin puling out of the GAA completely and doing their own thing. I suspect my point of view would be the the predominant one. While if the GAA went to replace Dublin, that entity would be vilified as would anyone partaking, that's how deep i think it would run. So the problem really is with the split - why i can see the logic of it down the road, it wouldn't just kill GAA stone dead in the capitol, it would turn it into an entity of hate culturally in the country's biggest population and commercial center. So its going to be interesting to see what happens.
It really is amazing what's happening in the likes of Ashbourne and Ratoath, i hope Meath learn from the mistakes we made, now is about the time to start those new clubs, buy land and develop facilities, the price of land there is only going one way. Wont be long until we see the likes of Ashbourne beginning to make an impression in Leinter and All Ireland Clubs." I would take O'Rourke's bona fides on this, remember he played a big part in making St. Pat's Navan strong in terms of school competitions so has a genuine interest in the development of football players and for years was involved the Simonstown Gaels club (Navan is a hugely expanding town so what he is saying about clubs having too big of a catchment area may some day work against his club).
bdbuddah (Meath) - Posts: 1354 - 01/02/2021 17:50:08
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Replying To CiarraiMick: "No I don't think Ó Rourke was on committee back then. The group set out a plan to split Dublin (Northside and Southside). The group in 2002 was chaired by Peter Quinn. It was hoped to have two Dublin teams by 2005 in the championship. Not sure who else was on the committee. O Rourke had been calling this for a while his reason saying it gives players a better chance of playing inter County. At the time I think his reasons were genuine but right now I tend to agree with you Username in that I think he just wants to stop Dubs winning now. I understand why the split is being called for but I also would be totaly against it." Sound Mick, you should have a look at the time Malachy Clerkin article in the IT today Mick (if you haven't seen it), its a debate between John Connellan and the Leinster Chairman - its an informative and balanced read.
TheUsername (Dublin) - Posts: 4445 - 01/02/2021 18:26:39
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Replying To bdbuddah: "I would take O'Rourke's bona fides on this, remember he played a big part in making St. Pat's Navan strong in terms of school competitions so has a genuine interest in the development of football players and for years was involved the Simonstown Gaels club (Navan is a hugely expanding town so what he is saying about clubs having too big of a catchment area may some day work against his club)." Colm O Rourke is just interested in developing players and people.
Been quite enthuasiastic about role rugby has played in Pats Navan and very supportive of it as well.
KillingFields (Limerick) - Posts: 3510 - 01/02/2021 18:58:32
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Replying To CiarraiMick: "No I don't think Ó Rourke was on committee back then. The group set out a plan to split Dublin (Northside and Southside). The group in 2002 was chaired by Peter Quinn. It was hoped to have two Dublin teams by 2005 in the championship. Not sure who else was on the committee. O Rourke had been calling this for a while his reason saying it gives players a better chance of playing inter County. At the time I think his reasons were genuine but right now I tend to agree with you Username in that I think he just wants to stop Dubs winning now. I understand why the split is being called for but I also would be totaly against it." I looked at yesterday's paper again, I misread what O'Rourke said, what he said was his views were 'in good company' with the 2002 strategic review committee which contained 3 former or future GAA presidents. This was the committee that made the suggestions to split Dublin and increase their funding.
Regarding O'Rourke's point about many good players in Dublin not having access to inter county due to the numbers involved, remember he was very involved in Leinster schools competitions with St. Pat's school in Navan meaning he probably would have seen many good Dublin schools players not getting near the Dublin inter county set up, so it's a fair point for him to make.
Do you think the growth of the GAA in Dublin has/ will leave the inter county game unbalance? (genuine question, sometimes when you are in the middle of something it is very hard to see if it is an outlier or the new norm). If interest levels in the inter county game (for football anyway) falls off it is an enormous problem for the GAA, the GAA needs people to be interested in their elite competition.
Sometimes I think the GAA is not able to react to issues in the game, another issue which has been ignored for years is the continual increase in hand passing/ possession football spoiling the game but the GAA just stuck their head head in the sand.
bdbuddah (Meath) - Posts: 1354 - 01/02/2021 21:50:36
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Replying To TheUsername: "Sound Mick, you should have a look at the time Malachy Clerkin article in the IT today Mick (if you haven't seen it), its a debate between John Connellan and the Leinster Chairman - its an informative and balanced read." Oh I read it yesterday Username. True an interesting read.
CiarraiMick (Dublin) - Posts: 3676 - 01/02/2021 22:42:58
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Replying To bdbuddah: "I looked at yesterday's paper again, I misread what O'Rourke said, what he said was his views were 'in good company' with the 2002 strategic review committee which contained 3 former or future GAA presidents. This was the committee that made the suggestions to split Dublin and increase their funding.
Regarding O'Rourke's point about many good players in Dublin not having access to inter county due to the numbers involved, remember he was very involved in Leinster schools competitions with St. Pat's school in Navan meaning he probably would have seen many good Dublin schools players not getting near the Dublin inter county set up, so it's a fair point for him to make.
Do you think the growth of the GAA in Dublin has/ will leave the inter county game unbalance? (genuine question, sometimes when you are in the middle of something it is very hard to see if it is an outlier or the new norm). If interest levels in the inter county game (for football anyway) falls off it is an enormous problem for the GAA, the GAA needs people to be interested in their elite competition.
Sometimes I think the GAA is not able to react to issues in the game, another issue which has been ignored for years is the continual increase in hand passing/ possession football spoiling the game but the GAA just stuck their head head in the sand." Mick sees nothing wrong with the dubs killing the game bdbudah.
KingdomBoy1 (Kerry) - Posts: 14092 - 02/02/2021 10:12:59
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Replying To KingdomBoy1: "Mick sees nothing wrong with the dubs killing the game bdbudah." And you see nothing wrong in your lot with 81 Munsters and 37 All irelands ! . Jesus Wept .
superbluedub (Dublin) - Posts: 2837 - 02/02/2021 11:44:44
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Replying To superbluedub: "And you see nothing wrong in your lot with 81 Munsters and 37 All irelands ! . Jesus Wept ." You do know that those 37 allirelands were spread out over 140 years don't you? we didn't win 37 in row or anything .
We played all our finals away from home and we have a small enough population so we were never going to kill gaelic football.
KingdomBoy1 (Kerry) - Posts: 14092 - 02/02/2021 14:07:18
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There is no way Dublin is going to be split, it does make for nice reading in a lockdown, it also allows other counties poor performers off the hook. It also glosses over the problems with the game itself, the poor obsolete structures. So no matter what is discussed, debated, talked about, Dublin is not going to be split not with the way the game is so structured.
arock (Dublin) - Posts: 4896 - 02/02/2021 15:42:39
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Replying To KingdomBoy1: "You do know that those 37 allirelands were spread out over 140 years don't you? we didn't win 37 in row or anything .
We played all our finals away from home and we have a small enough population so we were never going to kill gaelic football." Really poor effort
superbluedub (Dublin) - Posts: 2837 - 02/02/2021 15:59:15
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