Meath Forum

Sam Maguire Cup

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Replying To Thelongwoodslasher:  "we dont need to get as complicated as a "development Plan" , in fact im sure there is probably something that the CB call a plan down in Navan somewhere. There is a world of a difference between having a Plan, and Having a Good Plan. in fact id argue having no Plan is probably better than having a bad one.
All we have to do initially is stop making Knee jerk decisions . A little bit of thought and analysis of what is needed is the the bare minimum we should expect from the Powers that be. .We have been making emotional , personality driven decisions for over 20 years now ...and with each one...we double down on the problem, because as each "personality" comes in...they clear out even the Good bits that the previous Manager had achieved . I am no clearer of an identity of meath now than i was 10 years ago.
Kneejerk decisions and personal agendas.....Colm Coyle....Eamonn O Brien , Banty, MOD , Andy Mc, and Now COR
COR should have been in the shake up for the Job ..but it was 15-20 years ago. my understanding was that he put a blueprint to the CB at that stage and it was rejected by them ...im kinda guessing that No Blueprint was put in front of them this time around. Andy Mc wasn't favoured by some CB members well before he got the Job...he then goes & wins a Club All Ireland , and in a fit of emotion. he is given teh Job...BUT crucially...he had too many people in the CB just waiting for him to fall...Personality driven agendas ...and we are paying for them now

We don't need Statredgy...we just Need to ask those empowered to make Open minded well informed deciisons in the Best Interest Of Our game in the County"
I suggest it depends on how you see the current situation.... i see it as a long standing rot now many years old rather than a virus that someone brought in recently. I believe any sticking plaster solutions are not on .Its deep rooted "rot" requiring deep rooted tratment. Root and branch especially about How often we really ensure we have our house in order in a meaningfull way.Start with oursellves .Do we really just wait for things to happen and then we are victims of the "system" of which we are meant to be part of.How and when are we proactive in trying to update our thinking. Are we sometimes driven by media driven tripe in place of common sense. To win we have to score more than the opposition. We had 6 weeks off and we still cant score and at times afraid to try.......and so on and so on.
Deep rooted i mean accepting a culture where we appear to frown on the word "review" never mind trying to have structured meaningful reviews .where training sessions seem just routine rather than trying to deal with a need we found.For example poor scoring rate going back monthe we had 6 weeks training .How well did we meet that need Did that training session on that issue work answer no. look at scoring rates for the answer I am amazed there is so little evidence of learning under this management. I am equally amazed to see that the below par coaching standards have been tolerated for so long. Of course the players have responsibility in all of this no question.
So take your pick more sticking plaster meaning more of the same or a proper review that is open and frank with just one objective to accept fully our current status and plan a road to improvement
P.s. There would be a pitfall for some " Paperwork" "blueprints" REVIEWS "GOBBLEDEGOOK......Yeh agreed but maybe the medicine will work even if the label doesnt!

nobull456 (Meath) - Posts: 1266 - 05/06/2024 13:41:36    2549696

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i actually believe on current form we will be relegated to div 3 anyway next year

dickie10 (UK) - Posts: 767 - 05/06/2024 13:52:31    2549700

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Replying To dickie10:  "i actually believe on current form we will be relegated to div 3 anyway next year"
I agree and I said the same thing yesterday , but thinking playing in division 3 will help the team is nonsense !

We need to have ambition and goals , division 3 is definitely not one of them

WhyTheLongFace (Meath) - Posts: 934 - 05/06/2024 14:00:09    2549705

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Replying To brian:  "A very fair assessment on your part, watch someone say your an alias or burner account I use

But you make great points, same as Leitrim, longwood and proud royal have today. All of you guys are great posters who give a considered opinion and whilst we might have differing opinions I think generally we all want things to improve. And in 2024 they clearly haven't

I agree with most things you've all posted today and you're all correct in saying it's time to say goodbye to Colm. There's a regression in 2024 back to before Colm arrived in an unsettled team, no tactics, no game plan, no defensive or attacking strategy, no kick out strategy, no free taker and players rapidly regressing. That's simply unacceptable. Thanks for taking on something not many wanted but we can't accept going backwards. I was critical of Andy for it, and I'll be just as critical now of Colm for it. It brings me no pleasure but it's the honest truth

One point I'd disagree with is we need to play better quality opposition, that has gotten us nowhere in the last 10 years. Whilst we were competitive in some games up to 2019, those days are long gone now and the gap is only getting wider by the game. Honestly when was the last time we beat a team of a higher calibre than us in the championship… is it Dublin in 2010??? That's 15 years ago effectively… even teams at a similar level we don't tend to beat. Maybe Kildare in 2012 and 2020 were at the same level as us but other than that our record since 2019 is appalling. Winning league games is not the same as championship as teams are experimenting and trying things and it's now 5 years since those victories over Armagh and Galway.

As user says above there's blame on many sides be it players, management, county board and even ourselves as supporters for not doing more.

What the future is I don't know. Is robbie Brennan available for the Meath job? Is Paul Garrigan still working as head of player development? Could they be involved in 2025 cos honestly that's where we need to be looking too. Is Eugene Eivers committed to Donegal or would he get involved with Meath again. Can Meath people accept an outsider like a D'Arcy, Curran, Clarke, Bohan, Sherlock or others being involved with Meath? Is the county board willing to do what's required to right the wrongs? Are the players willing to put in the hard yards needed? So many questions.."
Well Brian,I personally think you would learn more from the Kerry game than you would say beating division 3(maybe Down ,Westmeath apart)/4 teams by a few points.I get your point winning will breed confidence but there is a big jump in standard from 3/4 to divison 1 and 2.I know getting hidings is not the answer either but apart from Dublin Kerry we could be competitive with most teams if the right structure gameplan in place.Who knows another manager comes in it may be the same but there has been no progress made since winning TC.On a new man in ,while of course most of us would like it to be a Meathman, I dont care where they come from if it improves the team then great..Of the names you mentioned Brennan and Bohan would maybe be interesting.I think Malchy o Rourke would be good but not sure he would take it?Alot of questions is right but important we get a good man in as the young lads need to hit the ground running in the next couple of years.

Proudroyal (Meath) - Posts: 294 - 05/06/2024 16:29:43    2549740

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Replying To Proudroyal:  "Well Brian,I personally think you would learn more from the Kerry game than you would say beating division 3(maybe Down ,Westmeath apart)/4 teams by a few points.I get your point winning will breed confidence but there is a big jump in standard from 3/4 to divison 1 and 2.I know getting hidings is not the answer either but apart from Dublin Kerry we could be competitive with most teams if the right structure gameplan in place.Who knows another manager comes in it may be the same but there has been no progress made since winning TC.On a new man in ,while of course most of us would like it to be a Meathman, I dont care where they come from if it improves the team then great..Of the names you mentioned Brennan and Bohan would maybe be interesting.I think Malchy o Rourke would be good but not sure he would take it?Alot of questions is right but important we get a good man in as the young lads need to hit the ground running in the next couple of years."
How about Mickey Harte could be available very soon

thestrapper49 (Louth) - Posts: 336 - 05/06/2024 16:58:45    2549744

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Playing teams at our level will bring us on. Last year Down and Cavan in the TC were at our level but that was it. Most division 2 teams are the level we should be playing against and able to be competitive. To be competitive there needs to be a plan, I haven't seen that. Players S&C needs to improve it's been two years and some of them are miles off it, the same with fitness.
Kerry and Dublin are in a class of their own and on their day the other division 1 teams would beat us out the gate. There's no point in being hammered every match but similar there's no point hammering teams and learning nothing or not being tested.

A good few of them players were around under Andy and didn't prove themselves then so what has changed.
Some of the players COR has brought in worked like O Neill, Caufield and Frayne but they are still no where near the level required while the likes of Gray and O Halloren need more time. But there are a number of players who are just not at the standard.

UsernameInvalid (Meath) - Posts: 403 - 05/06/2024 20:18:32    2549768

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Replying To dickie10:  "i actually believe on current form we will be relegated to div 3 anyway next year"
If current management stay,definitely

Utdroyal (Meath) - Posts: 65 - 06/06/2024 11:12:23    2549815

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Replying To nobull456:  "I suggest it depends on how you see the current situation.... i see it as a long standing rot now many years old rather than a virus that someone brought in recently. I believe any sticking plaster solutions are not on .Its deep rooted "rot" requiring deep rooted tratment. Root and branch especially about How often we really ensure we have our house in order in a meaningfull way.Start with oursellves .Do we really just wait for things to happen and then we are victims of the "system" of which we are meant to be part of.How and when are we proactive in trying to update our thinking. Are we sometimes driven by media driven tripe in place of common sense. To win we have to score more than the opposition. We had 6 weeks off and we still cant score and at times afraid to try.......and so on and so on.
Deep rooted i mean accepting a culture where we appear to frown on the word "review" never mind trying to have structured meaningful reviews .where training sessions seem just routine rather than trying to deal with a need we found.For example poor scoring rate going back monthe we had 6 weeks training .How well did we meet that need Did that training session on that issue work answer no. look at scoring rates for the answer I am amazed there is so little evidence of learning under this management. I am equally amazed to see that the below par coaching standards have been tolerated for so long. Of course the players have responsibility in all of this no question.
So take your pick more sticking plaster meaning more of the same or a proper review that is open and frank with just one objective to accept fully our current status and plan a road to improvement
P.s. There would be a pitfall for some " Paperwork" "blueprints" REVIEWS "GOBBLEDEGOOK......Yeh agreed but maybe the medicine will work even if the label doesnt!"
Most things you mention here... poor training sessions, poor scoring rate, poor coaching standards (I will also add abysmal defending) are all things that are completely down to the current management team. This is something that can be cured with proper coaching and a proper system.
For example... teams that are not flush up front with great clinical forwards will become extremely hard to score against and will try to win a low scoring match as opposed to going all out attack and getting hammered like we do!
Teams with clinical forwards will have a system to open them up and also get to the scoring zones.
Ive seen the meath lads kick some serious points from far out which to me shows that they can be accurate - a good manager will coach them how to get closer to the scoring zone and Im sure we have the capability to be more clinical in the right positions.
So if the proper management was in place...the proper coaching standards would be in place.....which means the scoring rate will improve....and the scores against will be much better (i would hope halved at least!!)
I can see a good competent management team improving all those aspects within a year. Enough to beat all teams in Div 2 in one year?? not sure but it would definitely show us how good or bad our current crop of players are and i actually believe they are good enough to be coached into a very good team!
So im not sure why you think that by getting a proper competent management/coaching ticket in place is papering over the cracks?
Like all CBs around the country, regarding the senior county team, their job is to get the best management team in place and In fairness I don't think anybody was against their decision to bring in COR at the time. it just didn't work out!
They must learn now that staying within the county is NOT working because every Meath manager is just a product of the Dinosaur mentality that the old traditional football is still the way to go. We need a modern management team to come in and when we start winning, that style of football will then trickle down through the younger codes aswell.

JonnieG (Meath) - Posts: 246 - 06/06/2024 12:58:41    2549843

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Replying To JonnieG:  "Most things you mention here... poor training sessions, poor scoring rate, poor coaching standards (I will also add abysmal defending) are all things that are completely down to the current management team. This is something that can be cured with proper coaching and a proper system.
For example... teams that are not flush up front with great clinical forwards will become extremely hard to score against and will try to win a low scoring match as opposed to going all out attack and getting hammered like we do!
Teams with clinical forwards will have a system to open them up and also get to the scoring zones.
Ive seen the meath lads kick some serious points from far out which to me shows that they can be accurate - a good manager will coach them how to get closer to the scoring zone and Im sure we have the capability to be more clinical in the right positions.
So if the proper management was in place...the proper coaching standards would be in place.....which means the scoring rate will improve....and the scores against will be much better (i would hope halved at least!!)
I can see a good competent management team improving all those aspects within a year. Enough to beat all teams in Div 2 in one year?? not sure but it would definitely show us how good or bad our current crop of players are and i actually believe they are good enough to be coached into a very good team!
So im not sure why you think that by getting a proper competent management/coaching ticket in place is papering over the cracks?
Like all CBs around the country, regarding the senior county team, their job is to get the best management team in place and In fairness I don't think anybody was against their decision to bring in COR at the time. it just didn't work out!
They must learn now that staying within the county is NOT working because every Meath manager is just a product of the Dinosaur mentality that the old traditional football is still the way to go. We need a modern management team to come in and when we start winning, that style of football will then trickle down through the younger codes aswell."
Yes i agree with most of what your saying "Papering over the cracks" means you are not getting to the core of the problem .Maybe we were spoiled with the the Boylan era. The county boards main job was be available for photos and celebrations.as key part of their duties Boylans man management was invaluable . I believe from 20 years ago There was much more required in terms of leadership,vision and overall management from the top table
No room now for dinosaur mentality as you call it The real need was to have maybe 3 people at the top table who (A) made in their business to update themselves to begin with on the skillset requirements for the modern day manager and prepare for an interview with candidates against the job descriptions Where targets are set and agreed and where progress reports are scheduled and agreed A key question would be what developmentneeds do you have as you see it to meet the needs of the job? ( needs and development will become common language words as will standards and continous improvement..The candidate would be asked for his ideas under these headings to encourage or test his willingness to take ownership and yes to make it known that the top table can lead when needed these are some examples of conveying an attitude and culture that promotes learning and development to promote improvement
I believe this attitude when understood and agree will make it logical and simpler for The CB to NOT stand back when targets are not being met for example. iT should also make it easier for the manager to ask for help when needed. If for example he says at interview he will need help but then does nothing relevant even when that need for help is very obvious then that provides the opportunity to "take charge" Thats NOT micro management Its leadership from the top that i believe should indicate we are willing to be more professional in how we deal with things We are planning to be better and i believe serious candidates will be more attracted by at least knowing whats expected rather than a perception of "MEATHNESS " alone or just those big hardy men that are so set in their ways.

nobull456 (Meath) - Posts: 1266 - 06/06/2024 22:52:52    2549927

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Replying To Blackspot09:  "If we beat Monaghan which I agree is possible even if only a slim possibility things will still seem as bad. All a win V Monaghan would do is paper over the cracks. Just Like winning the TC cup did last year.

There is no perspective needed because it was Kerry.... Most of us have seen more than enough since the current management came in to decide we are going nowhere under them and a change is needed."
I don't expect to beat Monaghan but if we achieved it it would be a big deal for us, it would be our best win since Dublin in 2010.
It would be the first time since then we would have beaten a team regarded as being a level above us.

bdbuddah (Meath) - Posts: 1400 - 07/06/2024 10:18:53    2549957

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Replying To bdbuddah:  "I don't expect to beat Monaghan but if we achieved it it would be a big deal for us, it would be our best win since Dublin in 2010.
It would be the first time since then we would have beaten a team regarded as being a level above us."
Monaghan aren't the team they were 12 months ago, they have about 10/12 new lads on their panel. At this moment I wouldn't have Monaghan in the top 10 in the country, they got relegated, lost to Cavan and then hammered by Kerry.

It would be a huge win for us just because they are probably a slightly better team but we've shown no signs that we are capable of beating Monaghan or anyone on our level besides Louth in the league.

UsernameInvalid (Meath) - Posts: 403 - 07/06/2024 12:21:35    2549980

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Replying To bdbuddah:  "I don't expect to beat Monaghan but if we achieved it it would be a big deal for us, it would be our best win since Dublin in 2010.
It would be the first time since then we would have beaten a team regarded as being a level above us."
That's extreme to say the least!! Rating a win against a very much out of form Monaghan team who were easily relegated from Div1 as our greatest achievement since 2010?? We've been in 5 Leinster Finals since then including a decent show against Dublin in 2012.

This match is not exactly David vs Goliath stuff.

JonnieG (Meath) - Posts: 246 - 07/06/2024 13:26:31    2550001

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Replying To JonnieG:  "That's extreme to say the least!! Rating a win against a very much out of form Monaghan team who were easily relegated from Div1 as our greatest achievement since 2010?? We've been in 5 Leinster Finals since then including a decent show against Dublin in 2012.

This match is not exactly David vs Goliath stuff."
I don't think of Monaghan as world beaters but this is the type of championship game we never win for over a decade. That's just where we are in terms of intercounty teams for a long time.
They definitely rated a level above us for many years.

I have said that this would be potentially our biggest championship win since 2010 off the top of my head without looking back on all results so maybe I'm forgetting some particular championship game but if your disagreeing with me name a championship win we have had since 2010 that would be better than a potential win against Monaghan?.
Even if you could pull up say 2 or 3 similar championship wins in this time frame this would show a potential win in this game in a good light as it wouldn't be a typical win we normally get.

Again I don't expect to win based on what I have seen in recent games but I find it funny that some people are trying to write off what a possible win against Monaghan would mean before the game is even played.

bdbuddah (Meath) - Posts: 1400 - 07/06/2024 14:45:24    2550014

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Replying To bdbuddah:  "I don't think of Monaghan as world beaters but this is the type of championship game we never win for over a decade. That's just where we are in terms of intercounty teams for a long time.
They definitely rated a level above us for many years.

I have said that this would be potentially our biggest championship win since 2010 off the top of my head without looking back on all results so maybe I'm forgetting some particular championship game but if your disagreeing with me name a championship win we have had since 2010 that would be better than a potential win against Monaghan?.
Even if you could pull up say 2 or 3 similar championship wins in this time frame this would show a potential win in this game in a good light as it wouldn't be a typical win we normally get.

Again I don't expect to win based on what I have seen in recent games but I find it funny that some people are trying to write off what a possible win against Monaghan would mean before the game is even played."
Sea dog 54 who started this thread I note his attempts to reason missing by absence..... Hope all is well!

nobull456 (Meath) - Posts: 1266 - 07/06/2024 16:00:43    2550045

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Replying To nobull456:  "Sea dog 54 who started this thread I note his attempts to reason missing by absence..... Hope all is well!"
You'll never make a Sherlock Homes, I certainly am not Sea dog.

bdbuddah (Meath) - Posts: 1400 - 07/06/2024 19:33:23    2550085

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we put in super perfermonaces against donegal in 2017 and tyrone in 2018 so no we havent beaten anyone decent or in div 1 since 2010. should have beaten kildare in 2011 in navan but beat them the next 2 meetings in 2012 and 2014. are this monaghon team better or worse than kildare in 2014? id say they are worse that kildare victory is probabaly one of our greatest in the last decade we played brilliant stuff for long periods

dickie10 (UK) - Posts: 767 - 07/06/2024 22:21:30    2550106

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Replying To dickie10:  "we put in super perfermonaces against donegal in 2017 and tyrone in 2018 so no we havent beaten anyone decent or in div 1 since 2010. should have beaten kildare in 2011 in navan but beat them the next 2 meetings in 2012 and 2014. are this monaghon team better or worse than kildare in 2014? id say they are worse that kildare victory is probabaly one of our greatest in the last decade we played brilliant stuff for long periods"
Kildare and Meath have been at similar division 2 level for years, I would never regard beating Kildare as beating a team a level above us.

Difference between Meath and Kildare is Meath stay in division 2 most years, Kildare's baseline is division 2 but have a few times got promoted to division 1 for a season and also got relegated to division 3 for a season a few times.

This season I would regard a potential championship victory against Monaghan as beating a team a level above us even if Monaghan don't appear to be as good as last year.

Remember I only brought up this point as a poster said a potential win against Monaghan wouldn't mean much.

bdbuddah (Meath) - Posts: 1400 - 08/06/2024 10:08:48    2550139

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Replying To bdbuddah:  "I don't think of Monaghan as world beaters but this is the type of championship game we never win for over a decade. That's just where we are in terms of intercounty teams for a long time.
They definitely rated a level above us for many years.

I have said that this would be potentially our biggest championship win since 2010 off the top of my head without looking back on all results so maybe I'm forgetting some particular championship game but if your disagreeing with me name a championship win we have had since 2010 that would be better than a potential win against Monaghan?.
Even if you could pull up say 2 or 3 similar championship wins in this time frame this would show a potential win in this game in a good light as it wouldn't be a typical win we normally get.

Again I don't expect to win based on what I have seen in recent games but I find it funny that some people are trying to write off what a possible win against Monaghan would mean before the game is even played."
Most people know a win against Monaghan isn't possible, that's why they are writing it off. From what we've seen since January, bar longford game, who are division 4 and finished with zero points in TC, it is not possible to beat a team that operated in division 1 this year by scoring no more then an average of 10 pts.

southmeathgael (Meath) - Posts: 937 - 09/06/2024 09:21:22    2550270

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Potentially the last match week of the year. Monaghan haven't won a game in their last 9 and have a lot of ageing players so it should be a real opportunity. However given our level of performance really all year but especially in the all Ireland series it's hard to see us being able to take that opportunity. Either way I'll be there hoping we can deliver a performance

LeitrimRoyal99 (Meath) - Posts: 1523 - 10/06/2024 11:41:58    2550520

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Meath could win a dog of a match against a faltering Monaghan and I'm not sure it would convince me we're on the right path. I'm curious what result on Sunday, if any, it would it take for COR and team to earn themselves a third year?

MeathAbroad (Meath) - Posts: 94 - 10/06/2024 12:26:23    2550536

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